| Is Britain a Christian Country? 15:04 - Apr 23 with 3954 views | BrianMcCarthy |
I've been following this debate with interest, but I'm no wiser for all that I've read. The debate seems to be about whether Britain feels Christian, or has a majority of Christians.
Do any of you wise souls know if Britain is actually Christian by definition ie is Britain constitutionally a theocracy? Or, like other Countries, does its constitutuon recognise God in some other way other than as its divine leader? Or has theology nop part at all in Britain's constitution apart from shared roles by the British Queen and some peers.
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| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 22:10 - Apr 23 with 705 views | Lancashirehoop |
Yes, is the short answer. How Christian our country is, is down to a lot more than bums on pews or ticks on census forms. As Cameron and others have already pointed out history and tradition has a lot to do with it and cannot be erased as a substantial part of our infrastructure of our society was very much constructed by Christian organisations and have stood the test of time.
For instance I find it amusing and ironic that many of the signatories to the letter to the Telegraph educated in Oxbridge colleges as well as others that were founded by clerics or various religious institutions. Our universities still enjoy a reputation as being among the finest in the world. And we must thank God for the wonderful people of St Jude's Institute and Christchurch Rangers effectively 'church' teams for getting together to create the finest football club the world has ever seen.
So on this great feast day of April 23rd I call upon you all to cry God for Harry, England and St George. |  |
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| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 22:16 - Apr 23 with 684 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 22:10 - Apr 23 by Lancashirehoop |
Yes, is the short answer. How Christian our country is, is down to a lot more than bums on pews or ticks on census forms. As Cameron and others have already pointed out history and tradition has a lot to do with it and cannot be erased as a substantial part of our infrastructure of our society was very much constructed by Christian organisations and have stood the test of time.
For instance I find it amusing and ironic that many of the signatories to the letter to the Telegraph educated in Oxbridge colleges as well as others that were founded by clerics or various religious institutions. Our universities still enjoy a reputation as being among the finest in the world. And we must thank God for the wonderful people of St Jude's Institute and Christchurch Rangers effectively 'church' teams for getting together to create the finest football club the world has ever seen.
So on this great feast day of April 23rd I call upon you all to cry God for Harry, England and St George. |
It's a sound point that several football clubs, including ours, were set up by the church. I believe that's why Southampton are called "saints".
As far as I'm aware only one club was personally founded by Beelzebub and still run by his minions. |  | | |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 22:16 - Apr 23 with 689 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 22:05 - Apr 23 by CiderwithRsie |
Brian - factual answer [as best as I can manage] - not only is HM the Q head of the Church of England but it is the Established Church and furthermore its archbishops and selected bishops sit in the House of Lords as of right and are able to vote on laws [though by convention they restrict themselves. Not sure if that could be enforced and if so how - back in the last century my constitutional law lecturer was always saying things like "it is thought that the Queen no longer has this right" i.e. no-one bloody knows.] The PM gets to appoint the Archbishops on behalf of the Queen, though he always picks whoever it is the CofE has asked him/her to do. [Maggie Thatcher rubber stamped Robert Runcie and seemed to regret it when he said killing people in the Falklands was a bit of a shame. What would he know, he only won a Military Cross in the Guards Armoured after all, but I digress.]
I think - is there a vicar on this board? - that being the established church also means that the C of E *has* to perform marriage christening and burial services for parishioners irrespective of whether or not they've ever turned up [I think they can refuse marriage services for people who've already had one go.]
The Queen is also Defender of the Faith - its on all the coins in latin ["fid. dei"" for short] - which laughably was awarded to Henry VIII by the Pope before they had that falling out over his divorce.
But being Britain, nothing is that simple - cos in Scotland the anglicans i.e. C of E ["Episcopalians" up there] aren't the established church at all, that's the Church of Scotland, which is presbyterian and therefore has different beliefs. Not sure if the Queen is head of it, but it is subject to some official control which is why the Free and Wee Free broke away. And in Wales since 1920 there's been no established church at all - the anglicans there are the Church IN Wales, not OF it. As you must know, in Ireland [all of it] there's the C of I for anglicans but they've not been established since Victorian times I think. Isn't the RC church still recognised under the Irish constitution, or did that get abolished?
FWIW I think pretty much any European country, however atheist, has Christianity in its moral DNA, just as any Arab country has Islam, both cases due to history. But Europe also has Plato and Aristotle and all the other classical philosophers in its moral DNA - in fact a lot of their stuff is in mainstream christianity - and quite a lot of pre-christian paganism too [having Christmas in December ain't in the Bible, its entirely pagan. And "Easter" was an anglo-saxon goddess, that's why no other European country uses that word for it.] |
Just seen this great and detailed response, Cider.
Excellent stuff, and very informative.
To answer your question about Northern Ireland, there is no official religion. | |
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| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 22:24 - Apr 23 with 671 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 17:09 - Apr 23 by BrianMcCarthy |
I know it's not well known in Britain, but it's not a term that's used by us Irish, as many of those Isles are Irish and not British (leaving aside the issue about the six counties, naturally). The Irish government don't use the term, and have objected to it.
It's not a huge thing with me, but it's clearly incorrect and it grates, a bit like 'Londonderry', or 'the mainland'.  |
Off topic, but while I take your point, what exactly do Irish people say if they want to refer to this archipelago in a geographical sense?
["Britain and Ireland" is wrong too; I'm part Manx and the IoM isn't part of either.]
Genuine question, I'm not trying to score a point. | | | |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 22:42 - Apr 23 with 663 views | distortR |
Hey boy, how's it going, yessa? | | | |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 22:56 - Apr 23 with 647 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 22:42 - Apr 23 by distortR |
Hey boy, how's it going, yessa? |
I'm not that Manx, its purely ancestral rather than actually ever living there! | | | |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 23:00 - Apr 23 with 648 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 22:24 - Apr 23 by CiderwithRsie |
Off topic, but while I take your point, what exactly do Irish people say if they want to refer to this archipelago in a geographical sense?
["Britain and Ireland" is wrong too; I'm part Manx and the IoM isn't part of either.]
Genuine question, I'm not trying to score a point. |
No, I know you're not, Cider.
I've been asked this before, and the answer in my experience is that we don't really tend to refer to the Islands as a group. I certainly don't think I do.
I use the terms Ireland, the North (or the Six Counties), Wales, Scotland, England and Britain, all as the case demands, but I don't really refer to the group of Islands as a collective often, if ever at all that I can recall.
I suppose I have always seen Ireland and Britain as being entirely different so I may never have searched for a term for the combination. | |
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| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 23:08 - Apr 23 with 638 views | TacticalR |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 16:45 - Apr 23 by Aunt_Nelly |
The States is an odd one. It was founded as a secular state and government and then got highjacked by religious nutjobs further down the line. |
OK, but the United States Declaration of Independence uses religious language:
'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights'.
How to explain the paradox? The writers of the US constitution were 'deists' who believed in a 'provident' god who operated in the background through the laws of nature, rather than the miracle-working god of Christianity. Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and Benjamin Franklin were all deists. |  |
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| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 23:10 - Apr 23 with 629 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 23:00 - Apr 23 by BrianMcCarthy |
No, I know you're not, Cider.
I've been asked this before, and the answer in my experience is that we don't really tend to refer to the Islands as a group. I certainly don't think I do.
I use the terms Ireland, the North (or the Six Counties), Wales, Scotland, England and Britain, all as the case demands, but I don't really refer to the group of Islands as a collective often, if ever at all that I can recall.
I suppose I have always seen Ireland and Britain as being entirely different so I may never have searched for a term for the combination. |
Fair enough, it's just I can imagine it coming up horticulturally - e.g. plants native to or endemic in these islands.
Maybe we could say Albion. Assuming no brummies are around. | | | |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 23:10 - Apr 23 with 634 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 23:08 - Apr 23 by TacticalR |
OK, but the United States Declaration of Independence uses religious language:
'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights'.
How to explain the paradox? The writers of the US constitution were 'deists' who believed in a 'provident' god who operated in the background through the laws of nature, rather than the miracle-working god of Christianity. Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and Benjamin Franklin were all deists. |
Never knew that. Thanks. | |
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| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 23:13 - Apr 23 with 628 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 23:10 - Apr 23 by CiderwithRsie |
Fair enough, it's just I can imagine it coming up horticulturally - e.g. plants native to or endemic in these islands.
Maybe we could say Albion. Assuming no brummies are around. |
Now that you say it, I've heard Irish presenters and politicians refer to 'these islands'.
I googled 'Albion'. Not having that. But I've no problem with calling them the Baggies Islands. I like them. They let us win in Cup Semi-Finals. | |
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| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 23:36 - Apr 23 with 615 views | PunteR |
In a court of law we have to swear on the bible . All schools do Christmas,Easter etc. The British flag has a cross on it. The Travel lodge and Holiday Inn have bibles in every room!
Imo it is a Christian country,but wether the Christian values are practiced in this country or even in the church is another question.
Religion and politics shouldn't mix. Football and religion is the same thing.
Keep the faith brothers. |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 23:55 - Apr 23 with 601 views | HollowayRanger |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 21:59 - Apr 23 by danehoop |
If Holloway and others of whatever political spectrum chose to write baseless diatribe masquerading as fact then it will be challenged. |
baseless
whats your guide dogs name ? lucky?  |  |
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| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 00:00 - Apr 24 with 596 views | eastside_r |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 23:36 - Apr 23 by PunteR |
In a court of law we have to swear on the bible . All schools do Christmas,Easter etc. The British flag has a cross on it. The Travel lodge and Holiday Inn have bibles in every room!
Imo it is a Christian country,but wether the Christian values are practiced in this country or even in the church is another question.
Religion and politics shouldn't mix. Football and religion is the same thing.
Keep the faith brothers. |
"In a court of law we have to swear on the bible"
Actually not true. The Bible is the default book but anything of value to you is acceptable.
When I did jury service, a couple of jurors swore on the Koran, at least one on the Torah and several like me attested (affirmed?), which is essentially a non-relegious pledge to do right as citizens. |  | | |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 00:17 - Apr 24 with 577 views | LazyFan |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 23:55 - Apr 23 by HollowayRanger |
baseless
whats your guide dogs name ? lucky? |
Actually it's us Atheists that are on the rise in the UK. Once again I think you fail to understand your own right wing rhetoric (remember your silly pensions rant?, bit lefty that one).
Please fall back into your right wing line and in fact start supporting extremists of any religion as they will help you stop the rise of us Atheists. Who are all a bunch of loony lefties anyway right?
Looks like your off message again. Welcome to the confused world of the Daily Mail. |  |
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| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 00:32 - Apr 24 with 565 views | WanderR |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 23:08 - Apr 23 by TacticalR |
OK, but the United States Declaration of Independence uses religious language:
'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights'.
How to explain the paradox? The writers of the US constitution were 'deists' who believed in a 'provident' god who operated in the background through the laws of nature, rather than the miracle-working god of Christianity. Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and Benjamin Franklin were all deists. |
You can be religious and still wish to have a separation between church and state, i.e. France or Turkey.
It's a fairly moot point as when the Founding Fathers were knocking around the assumption was that freedom of conscience was to do with which particular Christian denomination you wished to follow. Other faiths and atheism didn't really come into it at that time. |  |
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| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 00:41 - Apr 24 with 559 views | HollowayRanger |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 00:17 - Apr 24 by LazyFan |
Actually it's us Atheists that are on the rise in the UK. Once again I think you fail to understand your own right wing rhetoric (remember your silly pensions rant?, bit lefty that one).
Please fall back into your right wing line and in fact start supporting extremists of any religion as they will help you stop the rise of us Atheists. Who are all a bunch of loony lefties anyway right?
Looks like your off message again. Welcome to the confused world of the Daily Mail. |
what is an atheisit?
as chances are im one
not been baptised or christined dont go chuch no holy communion no cross's no preists no popes no koran no bible no nothing
when we die thats it we are worm food or ash nothing more no coming back as someone or something else ,we die and dont go to heaven or hell ,so enjoy it while you can
oh and i read the express not that i need to read a paper to see whats going on around me | |
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| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 07:58 - Apr 24 with 505 views | danehoop |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 00:41 - Apr 24 by HollowayRanger |
what is an atheisit?
as chances are im one
not been baptised or christined dont go chuch no holy communion no cross's no preists no popes no koran no bible no nothing
when we die thats it we are worm food or ash nothing more no coming back as someone or something else ,we die and dont go to heaven or hell ,so enjoy it while you can
oh and i read the express not that i need to read a paper to see whats going on around me |
Where to start after that wonderful grammatic tour de force? You work in a library and you read the Mail and the Express to understand what is going on around you. I am though reassured that you haven't been christined.
Just out of interest do you believe in Muslamic Ray Guns because I suspect that you may be a star of a music video of the same name on Youtube by Alex Vegas? [Post edited 24 Apr 2014 8:32]
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| Never knowingly understood |
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| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 08:27 - Apr 24 with 485 views | izlingtonhoop |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 07:58 - Apr 24 by danehoop |
Where to start after that wonderful grammatic tour de force? You work in a library and you read the Mail and the Express to understand what is going on around you. I am though reassured that you haven't been christined.
Just out of interest do you believe in Muslamic Ray Guns because I suspect that you may be a star of a music video of the same name on Youtube by Alex Vegas? [Post edited 24 Apr 2014 8:32]
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Neil Hamilton has been Christined, and look at the state of him.
Although I suspect Holloway is a fan. |  | | |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 09:24 - Apr 24 with 456 views | Bluce_Ree |
Christian country? Christian c*nty more like. F*ck that nonsense. Our laws and politics governed by people who believe in magic and fairytales? We'd be a lot better off if everything was run based on hard data, science and actual research.
Fish on a friday? F**k that. I'll be eating a pizza and reading about expeditions to f*cking Saturn, son.
Religion. F*cking hell, Lord. |  |
| ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE THROUGH MARTI THE REDEEMER WHO STRENGTHENS ME. |
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| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 09:27 - Apr 24 with 453 views | TheBlob |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 22:05 - Apr 23 by CiderwithRsie |
Brian - factual answer [as best as I can manage] - not only is HM the Q head of the Church of England but it is the Established Church and furthermore its archbishops and selected bishops sit in the House of Lords as of right and are able to vote on laws [though by convention they restrict themselves. Not sure if that could be enforced and if so how - back in the last century my constitutional law lecturer was always saying things like "it is thought that the Queen no longer has this right" i.e. no-one bloody knows.] The PM gets to appoint the Archbishops on behalf of the Queen, though he always picks whoever it is the CofE has asked him/her to do. [Maggie Thatcher rubber stamped Robert Runcie and seemed to regret it when he said killing people in the Falklands was a bit of a shame. What would he know, he only won a Military Cross in the Guards Armoured after all, but I digress.]
I think - is there a vicar on this board? - that being the established church also means that the C of E *has* to perform marriage christening and burial services for parishioners irrespective of whether or not they've ever turned up [I think they can refuse marriage services for people who've already had one go.]
The Queen is also Defender of the Faith - its on all the coins in latin ["fid. dei"" for short] - which laughably was awarded to Henry VIII by the Pope before they had that falling out over his divorce.
But being Britain, nothing is that simple - cos in Scotland the anglicans i.e. C of E ["Episcopalians" up there] aren't the established church at all, that's the Church of Scotland, which is presbyterian and therefore has different beliefs. Not sure if the Queen is head of it, but it is subject to some official control which is why the Free and Wee Free broke away. And in Wales since 1920 there's been no established church at all - the anglicans there are the Church IN Wales, not OF it. As you must know, in Ireland [all of it] there's the C of I for anglicans but they've not been established since Victorian times I think. Isn't the RC church still recognised under the Irish constitution, or did that get abolished?
FWIW I think pretty much any European country, however atheist, has Christianity in its moral DNA, just as any Arab country has Islam, both cases due to history. But Europe also has Plato and Aristotle and all the other classical philosophers in its moral DNA - in fact a lot of their stuff is in mainstream christianity - and quite a lot of pre-christian paganism too [having Christmas in December ain't in the Bible, its entirely pagan. And "Easter" was an anglo-saxon goddess, that's why no other European country uses that word for it.] |
That's right.There was a lot of jockeying for position in them days and Christianity's position of top dog had a lot to do with might makes right.
Christianity "borrowed" a lot of ritual and philosophy from Mithras and the Zoroastrians.....I seem to remember the first artistic depictions of Christ are with horns and a halo (Mithraic sun god worship).
But then there's an awful lot of debate about this and obvious denial from the powers that be who will insist that the idea was theirs and theirs alone.Quite violent it got sometimes didn't it?
Anyway,here's a very good article for you to chew on.....
http://www.romanarmy.net/mithrasandjc.shtml
I like the term "evolutionary convergence" in there,very diplomatic eh?,but doesn't fully absolve the Torquemadas and Matthew Hopkins of this world.Hell,it wasn't that long ago you could have your shirt royally singed for contesting the Ptolemaic system of astronomy whereby the Earth is the centre of the cosmos.
But then of course we've evolved into the fine upstanding and morally unimpeachable philosophy that we hold aloft with loud hosannas. |  |
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| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 09:33 - Apr 24 with 447 views | Pommyhoop |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 09:27 - Apr 24 by TheBlob |
That's right.There was a lot of jockeying for position in them days and Christianity's position of top dog had a lot to do with might makes right.
Christianity "borrowed" a lot of ritual and philosophy from Mithras and the Zoroastrians.....I seem to remember the first artistic depictions of Christ are with horns and a halo (Mithraic sun god worship).
But then there's an awful lot of debate about this and obvious denial from the powers that be who will insist that the idea was theirs and theirs alone.Quite violent it got sometimes didn't it?
Anyway,here's a very good article for you to chew on.....
http://www.romanarmy.net/mithrasandjc.shtml
I like the term "evolutionary convergence" in there,very diplomatic eh?,but doesn't fully absolve the Torquemadas and Matthew Hopkins of this world.Hell,it wasn't that long ago you could have your shirt royally singed for contesting the Ptolemaic system of astronomy whereby the Earth is the centre of the cosmos.
But then of course we've evolved into the fine upstanding and morally unimpeachable philosophy that we hold aloft with loud hosannas. |
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| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 09:49 - Apr 24 with 432 views | Aunt_Nelly |
| Is Britain a Christian Country? on 20:42 - Apr 23 by Clive_Anderson |
Sorry you're only allowed to use extrapolation when talking about climate change. Trying to do the same with population data is racist and proves you read the Daily Mail or something. |
Big props to Clive for trying to shoehorn 'Climate change' into a thread about Christianity which has already started to mutate into a thread about Islam.
All we need now is a 'New Stadium with extra legroom' thread by Glous, 'Talli to return with some Ginge-Rock, Paladini's poodles to return as 'lifelong fans' again plus some word association and it'll be like the ol'days.
SOMBRERO! |  | | |
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