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Is Britain a Christian Country? 15:04 - Apr 23 with 3930 viewsBrianMcCarthy

I've been following this debate with interest, but I'm no wiser for all that I've read. The debate seems to be about whether Britain feels Christian, or has a majority of Christians.

Do any of you wise souls know if Britain is actually Christian by definition ie is Britain constitutionally a theocracy? Or, like other Countries, does its constitutuon recognise God in some other way other than as its divine leader? Or has theology nop part at all in Britain's constitution apart from shared roles by the British Queen and some peers.



"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 15:10 - Apr 23 with 1639 viewsFredManRave

God knows.

I've got the Power.
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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 15:13 - Apr 23 with 1630 viewstoboboly

Is Britain a Christian Country? on 15:10 - Apr 23 by FredManRave

God knows.


Which God?

Sexy Asian dwarves wanted.

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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 15:32 - Apr 23 with 1590 viewsToast_R

Yes it is.
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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 15:55 - Apr 23 with 1542 viewsDiscodroid

during my wilderness years in the city 1989-2006 and being
a somewhat regular attendee to NA/ AA over those years .. i Came to believe that a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity.

i Made a decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of God as i understood Him.

Making a searching and fearless moral inventory of myself.

i Admitted to God, the exact nature of my wrongs ; murder, mass genocide , grooming of single mothers with croydon face lifts for sexual gratification most foul , bear baiting , intolerance in all its mannifestations , imbibing swine , shellfish and sweetmeats and loosening handrails in disabled toilets , simply for my own malicious pleasures, BOTH unknown and otherwise.

i made myself entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character and
Humbly asked Him to remove my shortcomings, via a very reasonably 10% of my monthly wages, or 'tithe' as it is known in holy circles.

i believe a holy chap of some kind has led me to this very place , god fearing members of lfw, on a path of righteousness, to impart or exalt, if you will, cautionary tales via gods good grace, on the pitfalls and moral dangers , whilst in dalliance with the kibble (cocaine) and alcohol, but not without a modicum of myrth. one would hope..

i think we should get spiritual comfort /strength from wherever it may lay.

8 years clean and going strong.
[Post edited 23 Apr 2014 16:50]

" I guess in four or five years, the new generation's music will be .. electronics, tapes. I can kind of envision .. maybe one person .. with a lot of machines, tapes, and electronics setups, singin or speaking .. and using machines " James Douglas Morrison | 1969

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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 16:00 - Apr 23 with 1529 viewsizlingtonhoop

Our head of state (Her Maj) is head of the Church of England, so the two are inextricably linked.
As Julian Baggini wrote in today's Guardian "even Richard Dawkins is happy to accept that "this is historically a Christian country" and that he is "a cultural Christian" who is "not one of those who wants to purge our society of our Christian history"." And as a staunch atheist myself I agree with such. It seems inarguable that our laws are based on an ethical code which Jesus Christ would recognise.
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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 16:21 - Apr 23 with 1482 viewsGloucs_R

I think this country has christian values and most people celebrate Xmas and Easter to some extent.

I'm personally a spiritualist.....I believe in a higher power but not that of a traditional God.

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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 16:28 - Apr 23 with 1465 viewsstevec

If it is, only for about another 30 years. Should be a Muslim country by then.
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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 16:31 - Apr 23 with 1456 viewsHAYESBOY

In terms of numbers.....it is not. It is a secular state.

In terms of history and tradition it is a christian country.

Smells like a trout farm in here

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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 16:31 - Apr 23 with 1454 viewsjohann28

I don't think the debate has been very enlightening as it all depends on definitions of 'Christian' which are very slippery. I suppose technically the UK is 'Christian' in the sense that we still have an established (ie Anglican) church which has a privileged position in the state (although to describe it as a 'theocracy' would be going too far, I think since we don't have a formal, written Constitution), and its certainly arguable that Britain is historically Christian, but in my view in practice the country is distinctly secular (for good or for evil).

If you ask me, it's normally better if 'God' is kept out of politics (unlike in the US, where God is rolled out with alarming frequency) since it tends to inflame, and thus ultimately paralyse rational debate).
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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 16:45 - Apr 23 with 1413 viewsAunt_Nelly

Is Britain a Christian Country? on 16:31 - Apr 23 by johann28

I don't think the debate has been very enlightening as it all depends on definitions of 'Christian' which are very slippery. I suppose technically the UK is 'Christian' in the sense that we still have an established (ie Anglican) church which has a privileged position in the state (although to describe it as a 'theocracy' would be going too far, I think since we don't have a formal, written Constitution), and its certainly arguable that Britain is historically Christian, but in my view in practice the country is distinctly secular (for good or for evil).

If you ask me, it's normally better if 'God' is kept out of politics (unlike in the US, where God is rolled out with alarming frequency) since it tends to inflame, and thus ultimately paralyse rational debate).


The States is an odd one. It was founded as a secular state and government and then got highjacked by religious nutjobs further down the line.
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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 16:49 - Apr 23 with 1400 viewsBrianMcCarthy

Is Britain a Christian Country? on 16:00 - Apr 23 by izlingtonhoop

Our head of state (Her Maj) is head of the Church of England, so the two are inextricably linked.
As Julian Baggini wrote in today's Guardian "even Richard Dawkins is happy to accept that "this is historically a Christian country" and that he is "a cultural Christian" who is "not one of those who wants to purge our society of our Christian history"." And as a staunch atheist myself I agree with such. It seems inarguable that our laws are based on an ethical code which Jesus Christ would recognise.


Izlington,

That seems to be the closest answer to what I was getting at. Even so, I can't find anything that tells me that Britain is actually a christian or theocratic state.

As long as the Monarch is also head of a church then you're right - church and state are linked, and I also take your point that Britain's laws are based on an ethical code that is similar to the laws of christianity, or th most common interpretations of christianity at least, though they are probably also similar to various interpretations of the laws of judaism, buddhism, islamism and sikhism.

Despite all that, there's a huge difference between a state being actually theocratic, where a religon and its hierarchy rule the state, and being a state that gives equal opportunities to citizens of all faiths or no faith, whose laws reference no deity and whose customs, mores and cultures reflect the customs, mores and cultures of many faiths, atheism included.

If, and it's still an if, there is nothing in the British constitution on the subject, then what is Cameron really talking about? Because the answer to that simple question is either yes or no, surely. Maybe there' s another debate that he's trying to kickstart - not whether Britian is a Christian country, but whether it should be.

There's votes in that.

"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 16:50 - Apr 23 with 1387 viewsToast_R

Cutting through the bollocks...

This country is full of churches everywhere you go.
We celebrate Xmas we and Easter, national holidays for both, the calender is based on the year of our lord and we bury our dead using Christian rituals standard.

We drink beer invented by monks and we eat fish on a Friday.

If that's not a Christian country then I don't know what is!
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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 16:56 - Apr 23 with 1359 viewsMatch82

Is Britain a Christian Country? on 16:31 - Apr 23 by johann28

I don't think the debate has been very enlightening as it all depends on definitions of 'Christian' which are very slippery. I suppose technically the UK is 'Christian' in the sense that we still have an established (ie Anglican) church which has a privileged position in the state (although to describe it as a 'theocracy' would be going too far, I think since we don't have a formal, written Constitution), and its certainly arguable that Britain is historically Christian, but in my view in practice the country is distinctly secular (for good or for evil).

If you ask me, it's normally better if 'God' is kept out of politics (unlike in the US, where God is rolled out with alarming frequency) since it tends to inflame, and thus ultimately paralyse rational debate).


Which of course, is WHY it is rolled out with alarming frequency in US politics...
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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 16:56 - Apr 23 with 1358 viewsAunt_Nelly

Is Britain a Christian Country? on 16:49 - Apr 23 by BrianMcCarthy

Izlington,

That seems to be the closest answer to what I was getting at. Even so, I can't find anything that tells me that Britain is actually a christian or theocratic state.

As long as the Monarch is also head of a church then you're right - church and state are linked, and I also take your point that Britain's laws are based on an ethical code that is similar to the laws of christianity, or th most common interpretations of christianity at least, though they are probably also similar to various interpretations of the laws of judaism, buddhism, islamism and sikhism.

Despite all that, there's a huge difference between a state being actually theocratic, where a religon and its hierarchy rule the state, and being a state that gives equal opportunities to citizens of all faiths or no faith, whose laws reference no deity and whose customs, mores and cultures reflect the customs, mores and cultures of many faiths, atheism included.

If, and it's still an if, there is nothing in the British constitution on the subject, then what is Cameron really talking about? Because the answer to that simple question is either yes or no, surely. Maybe there' s another debate that he's trying to kickstart - not whether Britian is a Christian country, but whether it should be.

There's votes in that.


Brian, you've just perfectly answered your original post.

Dave is running scared of Farage.
[Post edited 23 Apr 2014 16:59]
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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 16:56 - Apr 23 with 1357 viewsJigsore

Barely.

Most of this country has been entirely apathetic to christianity for years. I wouldn't even say it's a religious country particularly, a census doesn't really tell you the true extent to people's nonchalance.

So considering CoE are a fraction of a fraction... you have to wonder why the Church is still part of the state.

Christian values is another funny word to throw around. I'd prefer to call them (i.e be excellent to one another) common values or common sense. You don't need a religious background to know stealing or rape is wrong. I heard Eric Pickles flapping his big gob about this a couple of weeks ago and wondered if he knows gluttony is a sin.

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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 16:59 - Apr 23 with 1338 viewsTheBlob

Firstly Britain isn't a country.
England's pagan religions and customs were largely absorbed by the Christian faith,you get a lot of this in Cornwall where local deities were given the "saint " treatment - hence St.Austell,St.Erth and all that kind of thing.I seem to remember there was the great god Nodens who was supposed to be an evocation of Hercules,and then Wicca - all of them very important to someone or other but as usual didn't amount to a hill of beans.
The British Isles has always been a mish mash of imaginary beings who have consistently failed to deliver.

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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 17:01 - Apr 23 with 1323 viewsBrianMcCarthy

Is Britain a Christian Country? on 16:59 - Apr 23 by TheBlob

Firstly Britain isn't a country.
England's pagan religions and customs were largely absorbed by the Christian faith,you get a lot of this in Cornwall where local deities were given the "saint " treatment - hence St.Austell,St.Erth and all that kind of thing.I seem to remember there was the great god Nodens who was supposed to be an evocation of Hercules,and then Wicca - all of them very important to someone or other but as usual didn't amount to a hill of beans.
The British Isles has always been a mish mash of imaginary beings who have consistently failed to deliver.


Oh dear,

I'd already given you an up arrow when you used the dreaded 'British Isles' phrase!
[Post edited 23 Apr 2014 17:01]

"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 17:02 - Apr 23 with 1316 viewsBrianMcCarthy

Is Britain a Christian Country? on 16:56 - Apr 23 by Aunt_Nelly

Brian, you've just perfectly answered your original post.

Dave is running scared of Farage.
[Post edited 23 Apr 2014 16:59]


Ya, I wondered about that, Nells. It's certainly one explanation.

"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 17:05 - Apr 23 with 1307 viewsTheBlob

Is Britain a Christian Country? on 17:01 - Apr 23 by BrianMcCarthy

Oh dear,

I'd already given you an up arrow when you used the dreaded 'British Isles' phrase!
[Post edited 23 Apr 2014 17:01]


What's wrong wiv that?

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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 17:09 - Apr 23 with 1291 viewsBrianMcCarthy

Is Britain a Christian Country? on 17:05 - Apr 23 by TheBlob

What's wrong wiv that?


I know it's not well known in Britain, but it's not a term that's used by us Irish, as many of those Isles are Irish and not British (leaving aside the issue about the six counties, naturally). The Irish government don't use the term, and have objected to it.

It's not a huge thing with me, but it's clearly incorrect and it grates, a bit like 'Londonderry', or 'the mainland'.

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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 17:20 - Apr 23 with 1264 viewsTheBlob

Is Britain a Christian Country? on 17:09 - Apr 23 by BrianMcCarthy

I know it's not well known in Britain, but it's not a term that's used by us Irish, as many of those Isles are Irish and not British (leaving aside the issue about the six counties, naturally). The Irish government don't use the term, and have objected to it.

It's not a huge thing with me, but it's clearly incorrect and it grates, a bit like 'Londonderry', or 'the mainland'.


Oh I get it.
Well since you're getting twitchy about nomenclature, do you consider that Ireland is a Christian country or a pagan one - given that Celtic religions like the Druids preceded St.Patrick(kidnapped from Wales with his sister)by quite a margin.And how is your life better by that change - apart from no snakes?


Psssst...a bit of a riposte to us English being called British.
[Post edited 23 Apr 2014 17:22]

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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 17:39 - Apr 23 with 1219 viewsizlingtonhoop

Is Britain a Christian Country? on 16:49 - Apr 23 by BrianMcCarthy

Izlington,

That seems to be the closest answer to what I was getting at. Even so, I can't find anything that tells me that Britain is actually a christian or theocratic state.

As long as the Monarch is also head of a church then you're right - church and state are linked, and I also take your point that Britain's laws are based on an ethical code that is similar to the laws of christianity, or th most common interpretations of christianity at least, though they are probably also similar to various interpretations of the laws of judaism, buddhism, islamism and sikhism.

Despite all that, there's a huge difference between a state being actually theocratic, where a religon and its hierarchy rule the state, and being a state that gives equal opportunities to citizens of all faiths or no faith, whose laws reference no deity and whose customs, mores and cultures reflect the customs, mores and cultures of many faiths, atheism included.

If, and it's still an if, there is nothing in the British constitution on the subject, then what is Cameron really talking about? Because the answer to that simple question is either yes or no, surely. Maybe there' s another debate that he's trying to kickstart - not whether Britian is a Christian country, but whether it should be.

There's votes in that.


I would guess that most theocratic states ban and/or punish beliefs - or lack thereof - which is clearly not the case in the UK.

This is from the Wiki article on the British Constitution:

Church of England

The Church of England is the established church in England (i.e., not in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland). The Monarch is ex officio Supreme Governor of the Church of England, and is required by the Act of Settlement 1701 to "join in communion with the Church of England". As part of the coronation ceremony, the Monarch swears an oath to "maintain and preserve inviolably the settlement of the Church of England, and the doctrine, worship, discipline, and government thereof, as by law established in England" before being crowned by the senior cleric of the Church, the Archbishop of Canterbury — a similar oath concerning the established Church of Scotland, which is a Presbyterian church, having already been given by the new Monarch in his or her Accession Council. All clergy of the Church swear an oath of allegiance to the Monarch before taking office.

Parliament retains authority to pass laws regulating the Church of England. In practice, much of this authority is delegated to the Church's General Synod. The appointment of bishops and archbishops of the Church falls within the royal prerogative. In current practice, the Prime Minister makes the choice from two candidates submitted by a commission of prominent Church members, then passes his choice on to the Monarch. The Prime Minister plays this role even though he himself is not required to be a member of the Church of England or even a Christian–for example Clement Attlee was an agnostic who described himself as "incapable of religious feeling".[23]

Unlike many nations in continental Europe, the United Kingdom does not directly fund the established church with public money (although many publicly funded voluntary aided schools are run by religious foundations, including those of the Church of England). Instead, the Church of England relies on donations, land and investments.

Does it help?
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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 17:40 - Apr 23 with 1214 viewsDiscodroid

Is Britain a Christian Country? on 17:20 - Apr 23 by TheBlob

Oh I get it.
Well since you're getting twitchy about nomenclature, do you consider that Ireland is a Christian country or a pagan one - given that Celtic religions like the Druids preceded St.Patrick(kidnapped from Wales with his sister)by quite a margin.And how is your life better by that change - apart from no snakes?


Psssst...a bit of a riposte to us English being called British.
[Post edited 23 Apr 2014 17:22]


whenever blob, aunt nelly, izlington and bri mc post their intellectual stuff, i feel like im in the prescence of a higher being, some omnipotent lifeform, if you will.

i leave the forum with my head bowed.


Disocdroid , report to the dunces corner at once !!
[Post edited 23 Apr 2014 17:48]

" I guess in four or five years, the new generation's music will be .. electronics, tapes. I can kind of envision .. maybe one person .. with a lot of machines, tapes, and electronics setups, singin or speaking .. and using machines " James Douglas Morrison | 1969

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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 17:45 - Apr 23 with 1203 viewsBrianMcCarthy

Is Britain a Christian Country? on 17:20 - Apr 23 by TheBlob

Oh I get it.
Well since you're getting twitchy about nomenclature, do you consider that Ireland is a Christian country or a pagan one - given that Celtic religions like the Druids preceded St.Patrick(kidnapped from Wales with his sister)by quite a margin.And how is your life better by that change - apart from no snakes?


Psssst...a bit of a riposte to us English being called British.
[Post edited 23 Apr 2014 17:22]


Hey, the no snakes thing is pretty damn good! I'm no fan of them snakes.

I'm no fan of christianity either, mind you. It's caused us nothing but problems that I can see. Ireland has never beenn christian though, to answer your question, which makes the catholic church's succesful coup d'etat in the period from the late 20's to the early 40's all the more remarkable.

As you say, Ireland was always secular, and hugely for a large part of our history. My grandparents remembered a more secular and bohemian age, certainly piety was at a minimum, humour was ripe and where christianity had a part to play in the customs of the people there was certainly none of the submissiveness before the Vatican that was to sadly follow. Women got the vote alongside their male citizens when the Free State was formed in 1922, women were in many ways more powerful than men in the Irish family. The catholic church soon trod them down in the most horrendous way. Similarly, children were to suffer in silence, in dreadful silence, due to the arch-conservatism of the early-twentieth century making them voiceless and sub-human. Their protests might have been listened to had society not robbed them of the confidence to speak up.

On the constitutional front, Ireland does not proclaim itself to be a christian country. All of its powers are reserved for the people, none for a church or for any agents of a church. So it is secular in its entirity.

There is only one mention of God in the Constitution proper (which God is not specified but we can presume it's the christian one) and that is when it states that the "powers derive from the people, under God" before swiftly establishing that the powers belong to the people and not to the christian God, or any God.

So, I would say that socially, morally, culturally, Ireland is not a christian country. More importantly, it is not legally theocratic but firmly and inarguably secular. Thank God!


Oh, and sorry about the English/British thing. I try not to make that mistake but Cameron was talking aboput Britain and that got me confused.

"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
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Is Britain a Christian Country? on 17:51 - Apr 23 with 1186 viewsizlingtonhoop

Is Britain a Christian Country? on 17:40 - Apr 23 by Discodroid

whenever blob, aunt nelly, izlington and bri mc post their intellectual stuff, i feel like im in the prescence of a higher being, some omnipotent lifeform, if you will.

i leave the forum with my head bowed.


Disocdroid , report to the dunces corner at once !!
[Post edited 23 Apr 2014 17:48]


We'll all be shoving the same foul Carlsberg in our faces between 2:30 and 6:00pm on Saturday.

I was about to say before having a rest for three months, but no! Once more to the Blue and White Club!

Edit I know Brian probably won't be there on Saturday - but in spirit, I'm sure...
[Post edited 23 Apr 2014 17:52]
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