| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 13:24 - Jul 28 with 1662 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 13:18 - Jul 28 by Hunterhoop |
Not ignoring that at all. The area, and Jerusalem in particular, is religiously significant for both Jewish and Muslim people. I absolutely appreciate the Jewish "religious" claim to occupancy of the land from thousands of years earlier.
I was merely correcting your false accusation that THIS "conflict" was caused by the Arabs launchin a war in 1948. It wasn't. It was caused by the partition plan being created and implemented in 1948 due to the British deciding to pull out due to the continued zionist terrorist acts in the region against civilians (which the British, as the occupying force, had a duty to defend) and against British soldiers. Without the zionist terrorist movement in 1944-1947, the British wouldn't have pulled out of the region in 1948 and there wouldn't have been such a hastily arranged Partition Plan. In turn there wouldn't have been the conflict as it has developed.
Jewish and Arab people were living together in Palestine for years before 1948, not quite "in harmony" but at least in some form of stable state.
The need for a formal state of Israel, I get. After WWII, it was necessary, but rather than do it properly, Zionist terrorists forced the withdrawal of the British resulting in a hastily and badly devised partition plan to make the state of Israel happen. That's the root cause of the current conflict: zionist terrorists, which is ironic really given Palestinians are protrayed as the terrorists in the mass media in the simplified story of the conflict.
You're right that Hamas taking control of the West Bank and Gaza after the PLO was a disaster for Palestinian civilians and the peace process.
But nowadays we're not talking about two balanced states fighting a war, we're talking about:
a) one of the most powerful military nations outside the big 3, a fully fledged member of the international community and a very developed country (economy, living standards, etc)
against
b) a terrorist organisation based in a heavily civilian area, where most people live below the poverty line, there is no formal developed "state", people's freedom of movement is controlled by a foreign power, living conditions are appalling and the average age of civilians is 17.
Israel, as a developed nation in the world and important member of the international community MUST take the higher ground and responsible approach. The defence of "what would you do if people kept sending rockets over the border", is ridiculous. Firstly, they have one of the most develop defence systems in the world meaning hardly any rockets actually reach the ground. They get shot out of the sky. Secondly, those that do are fired with such primitive systems, they very very very rarely hit a target, almost all that do reach the ground fall on waste land.
Finally, since the 1993 Peace Accords, Israel, against their word and the UN's wishes, has continued to build settlements in areas designated for "Palestinians". Don't quote me, as I'm not 100% sure, but I believe it to be over 3,000 different settlements since then in areas in the West Bank (predominantly) that they agreed, with international approval, should be for "Palestinians". What's the defence in that? It's not "defence from attack", it's not reclaiming land they were owed under a previous international agreement, it has no defence.
For both these two approaches Jewish people should be ashamed of their governments.
And that's also a key point. The issue isn't "Arab/Jew". The issue is Zionism, very different from Judaism, and Palestinian Arabs, and also the terrorists of Hamas.
My complete sympathy lies with the Palestinian Arabs who are not part of Hamas but have been completely let down by international powers for decades, and continue to be. Israel (not Jews) should have been held to account for their actions against those Palestinian Arab civilians living in the West Bank and Gaza. |
Superb post. Simply superb. |  |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 13:31 - Jul 28 with 1635 views | TheChef |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 12:42 - Jul 28 by RangersAreBack |
As you stated "The Arabs launched a war". Indeed the Arabs have initiated all five wars and lost every time.
You also ignore the fact that Jews lived in the region many thousands of years ago and almost 2000 years before the rise of Islam. Jerusalem was the Jewish capital for over 3000 years before the Jordanians occupied it, expelled Jewish residents and systematically destroyed the Jewish quarter. They expelled residents, looted and destroyed 58 synagogues, and ransacked the Mount of Olives, a cemetery where the Jews had been burying their dead for over 2500 years.
Now I'm by no means trying to justify the scale of the latest Jewish response to Hamas action but it's important to understand history to place current events into context and provide a balanced view instead of relying on a poxy dissertation. [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 12:43]
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Israel doesn't want or need this war but she cannot live in peace until Hamas has been removed and a peaceful, prosperous future determined for the people of Gaza.
What people seem to fail to understand is that Israel is fighting Hamas - a terrorist, fundamentalist organisation. Israel is NOT fighting the Palestinian people who tragically have been placed in danger by an organisation who cares about more about killing Israelis than the lives of their own people. And who would rather spend aid money on rockets and attack tunnels than building a decent society for the people it is supposed to govern.
The Hamas Covenant calls for the obliteration of Israel and the Jews.
Compare that with Israel's declaration of independence, stating:
"WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.
WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East."
The so-called leaders are idiots on both sides, and the civilians get hurt. It's very unfortunate, but that's how it always is in war. The difference is in the values. One side is a democracy (not without faults), which cherishes the sanctity of life, freedom of speech, freedom of choice and equal rights, regardless of age, sex, ethnicity, religion, sexual identity, etc. Israel wants peace and has signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan.
The other side is lead by an extremist Islamic organization, which forbids any other way of life; which does not value life, and has no problem sacrificing innocent lives. In fact, Hamas TV's message to Israel was: “From the Al-Qassam Brigades to the Zionist soldiers: The Al-Qassam Brigades love death more than you love life.” |  |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 16:34 - Jul 28 with 1551 views | kysersosaqpr |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 13:18 - Jul 28 by Hunterhoop |
Not ignoring that at all. The area, and Jerusalem in particular, is religiously significant for both Jewish and Muslim people. I absolutely appreciate the Jewish "religious" claim to occupancy of the land from thousands of years earlier.
I was merely correcting your false accusation that THIS "conflict" was caused by the Arabs launchin a war in 1948. It wasn't. It was caused by the partition plan being created and implemented in 1948 due to the British deciding to pull out due to the continued zionist terrorist acts in the region against civilians (which the British, as the occupying force, had a duty to defend) and against British soldiers. Without the zionist terrorist movement in 1944-1947, the British wouldn't have pulled out of the region in 1948 and there wouldn't have been such a hastily arranged Partition Plan. In turn there wouldn't have been the conflict as it has developed.
Jewish and Arab people were living together in Palestine for years before 1948, not quite "in harmony" but at least in some form of stable state.
The need for a formal state of Israel, I get. After WWII, it was necessary, but rather than do it properly, Zionist terrorists forced the withdrawal of the British resulting in a hastily and badly devised partition plan to make the state of Israel happen. That's the root cause of the current conflict: zionist terrorists, which is ironic really given Palestinians are protrayed as the terrorists in the mass media in the simplified story of the conflict.
You're right that Hamas taking control of the West Bank and Gaza after the PLO was a disaster for Palestinian civilians and the peace process.
But nowadays we're not talking about two balanced states fighting a war, we're talking about:
a) one of the most powerful military nations outside the big 3, a fully fledged member of the international community and a very developed country (economy, living standards, etc)
against
b) a terrorist organisation based in a heavily civilian area, where most people live below the poverty line, there is no formal developed "state", people's freedom of movement is controlled by a foreign power, living conditions are appalling and the average age of civilians is 17.
Israel, as a developed nation in the world and important member of the international community MUST take the higher ground and responsible approach. The defence of "what would you do if people kept sending rockets over the border", is ridiculous. Firstly, they have one of the most develop defence systems in the world meaning hardly any rockets actually reach the ground. They get shot out of the sky. Secondly, those that do are fired with such primitive systems, they very very very rarely hit a target, almost all that do reach the ground fall on waste land.
Finally, since the 1993 Peace Accords, Israel, against their word and the UN's wishes, has continued to build settlements in areas designated for "Palestinians". Don't quote me, as I'm not 100% sure, but I believe it to be over 3,000 different settlements since then in areas in the West Bank (predominantly) that they agreed, with international approval, should be for "Palestinians". What's the defence in that? It's not "defence from attack", it's not reclaiming land they were owed under a previous international agreement, it has no defence.
For both these two approaches Jewish people should be ashamed of their governments.
And that's also a key point. The issue isn't "Arab/Jew". The issue is Zionism, very different from Judaism, and Palestinian Arabs, and also the terrorists of Hamas.
My complete sympathy lies with the Palestinian Arabs who are not part of Hamas but have been completely let down by international powers for decades, and continue to be. Israel (not Jews) should have been held to account for their actions against those Palestinian Arab civilians living in the West Bank and Gaza. |
V good post. I'm sure it's a tad more complicated than laying all the fault at zionists. For example why do the Egyptians seal their border with Gaza and even while civilians are being massacred not let the Palestinian non combatants escape the bombardment? Never quite got what the Egyptians are at.
Nevertheless, a really good précis which helped me understand some of this mess. |  |
| The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 16:41 - Jul 28 with 1541 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Keyser,
I don't understand the Egyptian relationship with Gaza either. There's so much about the whole issue I don't yet understand and it's really hard to get intelligent and informative comment on it. Wherever I look I seem to find entrenched anger and cliched rhetoric.
There's been a couple of great threads on here recently, and I've found them very educational (the ones about the Middle East, that is, but also the dwarf threads). | |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 16:49 - Jul 28 with 1527 views | kysersosaqpr |
Been to Egypt a couple of times. People are (as with all races) some really fab, some complete kants and the rest in between. But politically they are all over the place - just look at the recent brotherhood election, etc, etc.
I think the yanks bail em out money wise, but still would mean they could open Gaza border and let civvies out - they'd know who HAMAS lot are - and leave em in. Just weird politics that I can't get my head around. | |
| The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 17:22 - Jul 28 with 1479 views | kropotkin41 |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:38 - Jul 27 by Aunt_Nelly |
Go to Gaza? Fckin hilarious.
Best intentions perhaps but knowing your sort I seriously doubt it.
You'll most likely fashion a thobe from your Harrods egyptian cotton sheets to don with your organic cotton shemagh. Download The Lonely Planet (Vegan edition) to your Kindle HD, fill the Prius with homebrew Bio-fuel and then only make it as far as the local Farmers Market when you decide that picking up some ingredients to make a nice musakhan will probably be a better show of support for Palastine.
Postcard my arse. |
You clearly don't know "my sort".
There are support organisations of people who go to Palestine to volunteer every year. I have been in touch with a group down here and I've met up with a very brave lady who has been several times. I've talked to my family about it and I intend to go. I'm not stupid enough to walk into a war zone, but if and when it calms down I'm going to go to Palestine to help in any way I can.
You can believe it or not, but don't think you know me because I seriously doubt whether you know yourself, or indeed your ar*e from your elbow. |  |
| ‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’ |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 17:39 - Jul 28 with 1450 views | kropotkin41 |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 11:10 - Jul 27 by exiled_dictator |
go to gaza!!
that is fcukking hilarious.
like they would let an infidel like you in there!!
ask terry waite about traveling in the middle east.
if you could listen, you might learn.
you might also like to learn that george galloway is detested amongst the hamas leadership, and if he can't get in, then neither can you.
i presume you will be visiting wearing cargo pants, a bbc cameraman up your jacksie, and a blue press flak jacket.
send my regards. 
and make sure not to buy a return ticket.
or travel insurance. |
You think you're an expert on the entire Middle East because you're from an Iranian background? (Forgive me if it's not Iranian, I may be misremembering) It seems to me that that's a little like your expertise about foorball even though you've never been to see a game......... maybe you're like that with everything you do.
A simple google search will suffice to show you that volunteers go to Palestine.
There are Europeans in Gaze even now with the bombs falling (I'm not that brave.) - Doctors who are most certainly "infidels" are there helping right now. Terry Waite was being used by the CIA and very probably got himself into the trouble he had for his meddling. Volunteers, doing everything from (re)building to picking olives are not analogous to Terry Waite.
You may well have some things to learn yourself you know. I have never claimed to know everything at all, unlike it seems, you. | |
| ‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’ |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 18:03 - Jul 28 with 1435 views | Hunterhoop |
My understanding of the migration issue is not great. Ever since the conflict kicked off all the neighbouring Arab states have had a mixed relationship with the Palestinian Arabs.
The main reason why they tend to keep the borders shut is actually one of domestic policy. It's political. They don't want a load of displaced, poor people flooding into the country with nowhere to live, no job to work in, costing the state vast amounts of money in welfare, policing, health care, etc.
The average age of the population in Gaza is 17. Yes, 17. That means a LOT of young dependents. A LOT of kids who've not had a good education. That's a huge burden for your society, Arab or not.
Seems weird doesn't it, for such a highly charged religious area, but that's what I understand. Someone with greater knowledge please do correct me if I'm missing something or getting this wrong.
Also, the Palestinian diaspora is actually quite significant. According to some Palestinian bureau of statistics (which seems unreliable but supposedly trusted) there's something like 10 million people globally living outside of the Gaza Strip and West Bank who are of Palestinian descent.
Since 1948 hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have fled at certain times when wars broke out. In the 1967 exodus (during the 1967 war) something like 300,000 Palestinian Arabs fled to neighbouring Arab states.
There's also the secondary issue, that if the surrounding Arab states let all Palestinian Arabs flee they see it as letting Israel get their way. All of Palestine becomes part of the state of Israel in effect. It's concession.
Ultimately, the Arab world and Palestinian Arabs living inside "Palestine" and outside simply want a fully fledged, independent state of Palestine. You have the likes of Hamas who want the "destruction of Israel" too, in the same way you have certain members of Likud wanting to take over and occupy completely the land in the Gaza Strip and West Bank. But as the Oslo Peace Accords show, the Palestinian Arabs would settle for a fully fledged, internationally recognisied, unrestricted, free, independent state of Palestine within which Israel had no control and no settlements. Israel won't agree with either of those requests in the name of "national security", hence the conflict. |  | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 18:08 - Jul 28 with 1422 views | daveB |
interesting thread this one, have to admit I have never understood what this was all about bar the very basics of it but have learnt a fair bit reading this thread |  | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 18:18 - Jul 28 with 1410 views | kropotkin41 |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 18:03 - Jul 28 by Hunterhoop |
My understanding of the migration issue is not great. Ever since the conflict kicked off all the neighbouring Arab states have had a mixed relationship with the Palestinian Arabs.
The main reason why they tend to keep the borders shut is actually one of domestic policy. It's political. They don't want a load of displaced, poor people flooding into the country with nowhere to live, no job to work in, costing the state vast amounts of money in welfare, policing, health care, etc.
The average age of the population in Gaza is 17. Yes, 17. That means a LOT of young dependents. A LOT of kids who've not had a good education. That's a huge burden for your society, Arab or not.
Seems weird doesn't it, for such a highly charged religious area, but that's what I understand. Someone with greater knowledge please do correct me if I'm missing something or getting this wrong.
Also, the Palestinian diaspora is actually quite significant. According to some Palestinian bureau of statistics (which seems unreliable but supposedly trusted) there's something like 10 million people globally living outside of the Gaza Strip and West Bank who are of Palestinian descent.
Since 1948 hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have fled at certain times when wars broke out. In the 1967 exodus (during the 1967 war) something like 300,000 Palestinian Arabs fled to neighbouring Arab states.
There's also the secondary issue, that if the surrounding Arab states let all Palestinian Arabs flee they see it as letting Israel get their way. All of Palestine becomes part of the state of Israel in effect. It's concession.
Ultimately, the Arab world and Palestinian Arabs living inside "Palestine" and outside simply want a fully fledged, independent state of Palestine. You have the likes of Hamas who want the "destruction of Israel" too, in the same way you have certain members of Likud wanting to take over and occupy completely the land in the Gaza Strip and West Bank. But as the Oslo Peace Accords show, the Palestinian Arabs would settle for a fully fledged, internationally recognisied, unrestricted, free, independent state of Palestine within which Israel had no control and no settlements. Israel won't agree with either of those requests in the name of "national security", hence the conflict. |
Yes, the Palestinian diaspora is huge. The biggest chunk of it outside the Middle East is in Chile isn't it? Half a million people of Palestinian origin there I think.........
The terrible tragedy is that the two most educated and, at least formerly, secular populations in the Middle East aren't living together in peace.
I think to be fair, the political leader of Hamas in Gaza, Khaled Meshaal , has spoken about a Palestinian state and peace with Israel. I'm sure that there are more militant elements, just as there are extreme right wingers in Israel, but Hamas is a successful organisation at least in part because it is pragmatic. Israel could have peace if it wanted it - and the idea of a Palestinian unity gov't was on the table before this violence began. | |
| ‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’ |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 18:46 - Jul 28 with 1381 views | nadera78 |
It's worth pointing out that Hamas was historically just a small part of the PLO. Fatah was the dominant faction within that organisation but, after the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, Israel lurched further to the right until the point where the government sidelined Fatah and refused to deal with it. At that point, and with Fatah constantly engaged in corruption and in-fighting, Hamas was very successful in positioning itself as the main organisation supporting the poorest people in Gaza. As such they were able to oust Fatah and take control of the strip. Fatah still controls the West Bank.
For those interested in the difference, Fatah is a nationalist but non-sectarian organisation (ie Palestinian but not Islamist) and its Yasser Arafat was married to a Christian woman. Hamas, by contrast, is avowedly islamist. By refusing to deal with Fatah in the late 90s and early 2000s, Israel opened the door for Hamas.
You might like to consider why Rabin was killed, who benefitted from it, and why Israel may prefer to have an enemy led by religious fanatics. | | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 18:49 - Jul 28 with 1377 views | Aunt_Nelly |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 23:18 - Jul 27 by BrianMcCarthy |
Did you really call Irish people 'Micks'? |
You people have an utterly warped sense of morality.
One one hand it's a mortal sin and illegal for a woman to have an abortion but it was all tickety boo to imprison unmarried women, murder their babies/ children and stuff their corpses in to sewage tanks.
Your clergy aren't allowed to have a relationship or marry a woman but nobody bats an eyelid when they bugger and molest your young sons.
You take offence to the use of the word Mick but think it's funny to post "we bombed the hell out of ya" or deliberately misuse the word holocaust to cause offence.
Then there is the hero worship of terrorists. Banging on about the terrible crimes by the English but it's alright to blow up, kneecap, 'disappear' your neighbours.
You lot are properly fcked up. [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 19:07]
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 19:56 - Jul 28 with 1316 views | batmanhoop |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 18:49 - Jul 28 by Aunt_Nelly |
You people have an utterly warped sense of morality.
One one hand it's a mortal sin and illegal for a woman to have an abortion but it was all tickety boo to imprison unmarried women, murder their babies/ children and stuff their corpses in to sewage tanks.
Your clergy aren't allowed to have a relationship or marry a woman but nobody bats an eyelid when they bugger and molest your young sons.
You take offence to the use of the word Mick but think it's funny to post "we bombed the hell out of ya" or deliberately misuse the word holocaust to cause offence.
Then there is the hero worship of terrorists. Banging on about the terrible crimes by the English but it's alright to blow up, kneecap, 'disappear' your neighbours.
You lot are properly fcked up. [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 19:07]
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it was like the country was paralysed with fear of the RC church, morally bankrupt. | | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 19:58 - Jul 28 with 1311 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 18:49 - Jul 28 by Aunt_Nelly |
You people have an utterly warped sense of morality.
One one hand it's a mortal sin and illegal for a woman to have an abortion but it was all tickety boo to imprison unmarried women, murder their babies/ children and stuff their corpses in to sewage tanks.
Your clergy aren't allowed to have a relationship or marry a woman but nobody bats an eyelid when they bugger and molest your young sons.
You take offence to the use of the word Mick but think it's funny to post "we bombed the hell out of ya" or deliberately misuse the word holocaust to cause offence.
Then there is the hero worship of terrorists. Banging on about the terrible crimes by the English but it's alright to blow up, kneecap, 'disappear' your neighbours.
You lot are properly fcked up. [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 19:07]
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Man, have you got the wrong man!
I'm not religious so I'm hardly an apologist for the catholic child abusers, or any of the catholic church's horrendous acts.
I'm a pacifist who hates Glasgow Celtic as much as I hate Glasgow Rangers.
I am and always have been anti-IRA so it's far from 'alright' in my book for them or anyone else to use violence of any kind.
Finally, I was born in England, spent a third of my life in England, and support English club and national teams as well as Irish teams, and am proud to have great friends of both nationalities, many of whom I've met through Rangers, many not.
So I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'you lot' or 'you people'.
I used the word holocaust misadvisedly, and said so afterwards. But I used it to highlight the horror of what is happening in Gaza. Clumsy shock tactics, perhaps, I'll grant you, but certainly not done to cause offense. As for talking about bombing England, if I said that then such is my horror of violence then it could only have been an ironic comment in context to someone who knows me well, and knows my beliefs well.
I've been posting on here, and on the boards that came before LFW, for long enough that there are many people who will back up that I am an atheist pacifist who holds none of the beliefs you attribute to me and 'my lot'.
But don't let any of that stop you from making sweeping generalisations. I guess 'we' are all the same to you. | |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:04 - Jul 28 with 1298 views | dubaistu |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 19:58 - Jul 28 by BrianMcCarthy |
Man, have you got the wrong man!
I'm not religious so I'm hardly an apologist for the catholic child abusers, or any of the catholic church's horrendous acts.
I'm a pacifist who hates Glasgow Celtic as much as I hate Glasgow Rangers.
I am and always have been anti-IRA so it's far from 'alright' in my book for them or anyone else to use violence of any kind.
Finally, I was born in England, spent a third of my life in England, and support English club and national teams as well as Irish teams, and am proud to have great friends of both nationalities, many of whom I've met through Rangers, many not.
So I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'you lot' or 'you people'.
I used the word holocaust misadvisedly, and said so afterwards. But I used it to highlight the horror of what is happening in Gaza. Clumsy shock tactics, perhaps, I'll grant you, but certainly not done to cause offense. As for talking about bombing England, if I said that then such is my horror of violence then it could only have been an ironic comment in context to someone who knows me well, and knows my beliefs well.
I've been posting on here, and on the boards that came before LFW, for long enough that there are many people who will back up that I am an atheist pacifist who holds none of the beliefs you attribute to me and 'my lot'.
But don't let any of that stop you from making sweeping generalisations. I guess 'we' are all the same to you. |
Plastic Mick xx |  | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:06 - Jul 28 with 1289 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:04 - Jul 28 by dubaistu |
Plastic Mick xx |
I believe the correct term is 'Shandy'! | |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:17 - Jul 28 with 1270 views | RangersAreBack |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 13:31 - Jul 28 by TheChef |
Israel doesn't want or need this war but she cannot live in peace until Hamas has been removed and a peaceful, prosperous future determined for the people of Gaza.
What people seem to fail to understand is that Israel is fighting Hamas - a terrorist, fundamentalist organisation. Israel is NOT fighting the Palestinian people who tragically have been placed in danger by an organisation who cares about more about killing Israelis than the lives of their own people. And who would rather spend aid money on rockets and attack tunnels than building a decent society for the people it is supposed to govern.
The Hamas Covenant calls for the obliteration of Israel and the Jews.
Compare that with Israel's declaration of independence, stating:
"WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.
WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East."
The so-called leaders are idiots on both sides, and the civilians get hurt. It's very unfortunate, but that's how it always is in war. The difference is in the values. One side is a democracy (not without faults), which cherishes the sanctity of life, freedom of speech, freedom of choice and equal rights, regardless of age, sex, ethnicity, religion, sexual identity, etc. Israel wants peace and has signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan.
The other side is lead by an extremist Islamic organization, which forbids any other way of life; which does not value life, and has no problem sacrificing innocent lives. In fact, Hamas TV's message to Israel was: “From the Al-Qassam Brigades to the Zionist soldiers: The Al-Qassam Brigades love death more than you love life.” |
Superb post. Simply superb. |  | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:25 - Jul 28 with 1253 views | RangersAreBack |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 08:05 - Jul 28 by THEBUSH |
You have no sympathy in your heart for the killing of innocents, your gonna keep on supporting the Israel war machine, no matter what.
Also don't patronise me, I can learn nothing from you, idiot. |
Actually if you read my earlier posts I clearly stated that the killing is wrong and a diplomatic solution is required. However the only way to reach this solution is to separate Hamas from the equation, understand the history of the region and listen to both sides of the story. | | | |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:35 - Jul 28 with 1235 views | kysersosaqpr |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 18:49 - Jul 28 by Aunt_Nelly |
You people have an utterly warped sense of morality.
One one hand it's a mortal sin and illegal for a woman to have an abortion but it was all tickety boo to imprison unmarried women, murder their babies/ children and stuff their corpses in to sewage tanks.
Your clergy aren't allowed to have a relationship or marry a woman but nobody bats an eyelid when they bugger and molest your young sons.
You take offence to the use of the word Mick but think it's funny to post "we bombed the hell out of ya" or deliberately misuse the word holocaust to cause offence.
Then there is the hero worship of terrorists. Banging on about the terrible crimes by the English but it's alright to blow up, kneecap, 'disappear' your neighbours.
You lot are properly fcked up. [Post edited 28 Jul 2014 19:07]
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Stop sitting on the fence. Do you like us Irish? I mean we are all the same and all probably act as you just stated - If I can think of any exceptions I'll let you know, but I think you've hit the nail on the head. | |
| The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:38 - Jul 28 with 1237 views | kysersosaqpr |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:04 - Jul 28 by dubaistu |
Plastic Mick xx |
And your obviously the writing brains of this thread. "Plastic mick"... succinct, original, cutting edge commentary. Breathtaking! | |
| The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:41 - Jul 28 with 1226 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:38 - Jul 28 by kysersosaqpr |
And your obviously the writing brains of this thread. "Plastic mick"... succinct, original, cutting edge commentary. Breathtaking! |
Keyser,
In fairness I think Dubai was purely joking, judging by the little kisses he blew me! | |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:44 - Jul 28 with 1219 views | kysersosaqpr |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:41 - Jul 28 by BrianMcCarthy |
Keyser,
In fairness I think Dubai was purely joking, judging by the little kisses he blew me! |
Dubai, my apologies | |
| The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. |
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| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:48 - Jul 28 with 1213 views | dubaistu |
| Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 20:38 - Jul 28 by kysersosaqpr |
And your obviously the writing brains of this thread. "Plastic mick"... succinct, original, cutting edge commentary. Breathtaking! |
It's "you're" not 'your" prince.
For what it's worth, I have no time for illegal occupation of Palestine. You'd also be fooling yourself if you thought a football forum was going to get the bottom of this issue, which will continue to go on long after you and I start pushing up the daises.
Chill out and watch Usual Suspects again, seek inspiration there my child
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