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This is a LoftForWords Board chief Clive AKA Northernr (Constant notorious disparagment of jock footie means he's barred) and LoftForWords Sweaty Hater free thread.
If you cannae write or upload something nice,don't write or upload anything. [prepares for inevitable incoming inundation of rabid sassenach bigoted posts]
sexier than sheep,yougottaadmit? #CantWeLoseTheTaffsInstead?
[Post edited 30 Jan 2015 0:15]
'I'm 18 with a bullet.Got my finger on the trigger,I'm gonna pull it.."
Love,Peace and Fook Chelski!
More like 20StoneOfHoop now.
Let's face it I'm not getting any thinner.
Pass the cake and pies please.
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My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 19:34 - Sep 9 with 1437 views
My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 19:20 - Sep 9 by isawqpratwcity
i enjoy your posts on this subject, karl.
you are refreshingly off-beat with both sides.
Thanks, I have to admit that when the rabid 'F**k Off and don't come back' comments are flying about I get to thinking that it is possible! What has surprised me is that when all the talk of a referendum started I was, say, 95% 'No' but as time has gone on and promises have been make I have often found myself thinking that it might be a good idea. I'm still going to vote against but I have to say they have run a good campaign and have been very fortunate to have a character like Cameron as PM who just does not sit comfortable with many Scots at all (not a bad man or PM but far too posh and basically very English) which has left very few credible politicians to front the 'Better Together' campaign. I think that is the best strap line to describe the Union.
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My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 19:36 - Sep 9 with 1431 views
I think there is a lot of wishful thinking from the No camp that Orkney and Shetland might press for separation from Scotland. The case for Quebec's independence rested on the wealth created by selling hydro-power to the US. Most of the dams were in the far north, on "First Nation" territory, who weren't thrilled about the idea of being forced into a state strongly based on a French identity and with an otherwise feeble economy. "If Canada is separable, so is Quebec", went the slogan. Critics of Scottish independence have looked at the superficial resemblance (resources, far north) and willed a separatist movement into being.
As it happens, I expect a No. I think the romantic arguments in favour of Yes have discouraged people from supporting No publicly for fear of seeming cowardly or traitorous. If Yes was going to win, they'd have to be further ahead in the polls (but there may still be time).
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My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 20:00 - Sep 9 with 1401 views
My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 19:36 - Sep 9 by MrSheen
I think there is a lot of wishful thinking from the No camp that Orkney and Shetland might press for separation from Scotland. The case for Quebec's independence rested on the wealth created by selling hydro-power to the US. Most of the dams were in the far north, on "First Nation" territory, who weren't thrilled about the idea of being forced into a state strongly based on a French identity and with an otherwise feeble economy. "If Canada is separable, so is Quebec", went the slogan. Critics of Scottish independence have looked at the superficial resemblance (resources, far north) and willed a separatist movement into being.
As it happens, I expect a No. I think the romantic arguments in favour of Yes have discouraged people from supporting No publicly for fear of seeming cowardly or traitorous. If Yes was going to win, they'd have to be further ahead in the polls (but there may still be time).
Good point about the No voters keeping a bit quiet, it wasn't the case at the start
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My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 20:01 - Sep 9 with 1400 views
My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 19:36 - Sep 9 by MrSheen
I think there is a lot of wishful thinking from the No camp that Orkney and Shetland might press for separation from Scotland. The case for Quebec's independence rested on the wealth created by selling hydro-power to the US. Most of the dams were in the far north, on "First Nation" territory, who weren't thrilled about the idea of being forced into a state strongly based on a French identity and with an otherwise feeble economy. "If Canada is separable, so is Quebec", went the slogan. Critics of Scottish independence have looked at the superficial resemblance (resources, far north) and willed a separatist movement into being.
As it happens, I expect a No. I think the romantic arguments in favour of Yes have discouraged people from supporting No publicly for fear of seeming cowardly or traitorous. If Yes was going to win, they'd have to be further ahead in the polls (but there may still be time).
Good point about the stated public voting intentions and the reality in the booth being very different,Mr Sheen. In public peeps will often say 'the right thing',in private the truth will out. As the famous graffiti inked in 1997 in Goldhawk Road used to say: 'Opinion Poll is a Tory voter'.
Never mind the Quebec historical parallel I 'm reminded of the Czechoslovakian split.Tell me how Slovakia have benefitted as a small nation state on the edge of things. Are people more likely to want to do business with Prague or Bratislava?
Take the sentiment out of things,surely bottom line this is bad for both country's economies - a bad hit for us,a disaster for them?
[Post edited 9 Sep 2014 20:06]
'I'm 18 with a bullet.Got my finger on the trigger,I'm gonna pull it.."
Love,Peace and Fook Chelski!
More like 20StoneOfHoop now.
Let's face it I'm not getting any thinner.
Pass the cake and pies please.
1
My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 20:24 - Sep 9 with 1359 views
My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 20:01 - Sep 9 by 18StoneOfHoop
Good point about the stated public voting intentions and the reality in the booth being very different,Mr Sheen. In public peeps will often say 'the right thing',in private the truth will out. As the famous graffiti inked in 1997 in Goldhawk Road used to say: 'Opinion Poll is a Tory voter'.
Never mind the Quebec historical parallel I 'm reminded of the Czechoslovakian split.Tell me how Slovakia have benefitted as a small nation state on the edge of things. Are people more likely to want to do business with Prague or Bratislava?
Take the sentiment out of things,surely bottom line this is bad for both country's economies - a bad hit for us,a disaster for them?
[Post edited 9 Sep 2014 20:06]
Slovakia has actually been pretty successful in attracting investment in manufacturing since the split, especially in cars, even though Skoda was left over the border. They have very low corporate tax. Salmond is promising the same for Scotland, but this may not be compatible with a high initial deficit.
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My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 20:46 - Sep 9 with 1340 views
One area with a lot of truth to come out yet is Trident. SNP claim it's non nuclear policy but there is a lot of talk that moving it to Plymouth (?) then opens up the whole West of Scotland to oil development. Heseltine apparently put down a restriction on this area in the 80's due to the potential of interfering with safety of Trident. Are the SNP being disingenuous about the 1000 Trident jobs for the gamble of untapped oil reserves and this will be what they envisage bankrolling the whole shebang? In the 80's Salmond worked as an oil economist so will feel he has a good knowledge obviously
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My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 21:49 - Sep 9 with 1263 views
My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 17:53 - Sep 9 by londonscottish
As a Scot (albeit one who has lived in England for a quarter of a century) I think it would be a big mistake for my countrymen to vote yes. It would damage both parties economically.
Unfortunately the Yes campaign does not seem to be based on logic or fact but instead is emotionally-driven IMHO.
Not that I actually have a say - they didn't actually give me a vote. Feckers. Because it would have been No.
Personally I agree that it is likely to damage both parties, but I also understand that emotion is not a bad basis for a country. I don't care what the economic advantage might be of becoming part of the USA, for example; I'm not American and never will be. It takes a gut feeling, emotional response to make you feel that you're all in the same boat, which is the basis for a nation IMO.
The whole problem with the "No" campaign is that it is based on calculating the benefits. No-one is going to change their vote on the basis of a percentage point here or there on, say, health spending or foreign investment, and there'll always be another expert along to argue that the first guy has his figures wrong. Instead they should have stood up and saying "we may be Scots, or English or whatever but we're also British and proud of it, proud of what this country has done and can be."
The "No" political broadcast should have been the Olympic opening ceremony on a repeat loop.
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My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 21:54 - Sep 9 with 1261 views
Is it true that 16 & 17 year olds will be voting in the referendum?? If so, how did Salmond wrangle that one......all he has to do is send them all a copy of Braveheart and it'll be a foregone conclusion! I do wish we had a PM with balls leading this country, as we could then tell them that if they go they REALLY are on their own..in ALL respects! But , of course, at the moment our spineless wonders are up there offering them anything they want to stay with us. I'd prefer them to stay, but if we're that odious to them then...c'est la vie! At least the weather forecasts might stop banging on about Orkney and Shetland.
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My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 21:58 - Sep 9 with 1254 views
My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 20:24 - Sep 9 by SpiritofGregory
Labour must be praying for a no vote as they rely heavily on votes in Scotland. A huge amount of Labour votes zapped overnight if the Scots vote yes.
There was an analysis piece on this in the grauniad a couple of days back. Pointed out that Tony Blair won a majority of seats in England in every election he fought. The only election result that would have been different was that Ted Heath would have won in 1974.
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My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 22:01 - Sep 9 with 1253 views
With Mark Carney making it clear today that a shared currency would be totally unacceptable for the rest of the union as the BofE would effectively be the lender of last resort for a Scottish spending spree, it looks as if the Scots would have to create their own currency pretty damned quick, which would be unproven, and the effects, especially if they renage on their portion of the national debt, will be much higher borrowing costs which in turn increases the cost of borrowing north of the border. RBS has already stated and made provision for relocation south as have Standard Life and no doubt other financial institutions will follow. There will be an exodus of wealth south. Consequently you will then see a Scottish government having to reign in spending, meaning the end of free prescriptions, free university places and lower pensions. And if they think that joining the EU will be the solution. Well from my understanding all existing member states have to agree, which I don't think the Spanish would be happy to do so, given that they do not wish to encourage the separatist movements of the Catalans and the Basques.
Finally, it shows how desparate the con is with Salmond. Only people residing within the borders of Scotland are allowed a vote. Why? Because the vast majority that live in the other parts of the UK would more than likely vote no. I suspect given the 18th the majority of Scots will wake up and realise that they have been taken for a ride by a dubious and devious individual.
My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 21:18 - Sep 9 by karl
One area with a lot of truth to come out yet is Trident. SNP claim it's non nuclear policy but there is a lot of talk that moving it to Plymouth (?) then opens up the whole West of Scotland to oil development. Heseltine apparently put down a restriction on this area in the 80's due to the potential of interfering with safety of Trident. Are the SNP being disingenuous about the 1000 Trident jobs for the gamble of untapped oil reserves and this will be what they envisage bankrolling the whole shebang? In the 80's Salmond worked as an oil economist so will feel he has a good knowledge obviously
listening to BBC South West they were debating the issue and it was mentioned there could be jobs transferred to the SW if the Yes vote is successful
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My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 22:08 - Sep 9 with 1232 views
My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 18:30 - Sep 9 by hamptonhillhoop
I think you're talking about the Shengen agreement which allows free travel of EU nationals across Europe. this undoubtedly makes the travel of illegal immigrants through mainland Europe easier due to more lax border controls, but it would still be more difficult to get to Scotland as they would have to physically cross water to get here. I think Milliband has already spoken about border controls with Scotland if this happens, but I can't see this being the main cause for concern if they vote yes.
They won't be in the EU, so no freedom of movement for any eu migrants to Scotland. They can all come to England, but not Scotland!
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
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My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 22:10 - Sep 9 with 1133 views
My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 21:54 - Sep 9 by Doughnut
Is it true that 16 & 17 year olds will be voting in the referendum?? If so, how did Salmond wrangle that one......all he has to do is send them all a copy of Braveheart and it'll be a foregone conclusion! I do wish we had a PM with balls leading this country, as we could then tell them that if they go they REALLY are on their own..in ALL respects! But , of course, at the moment our spineless wonders are up there offering them anything they want to stay with us. I'd prefer them to stay, but if we're that odious to them then...c'est la vie! At least the weather forecasts might stop banging on about Orkney and Shetland.
Nobody I know thinks that the UK will be handing over a penny after independence so to keep banging on about 'if they go tell them they'll get nothing more' is pointless and I think this is where a lot of the negative vibe has come from, you really are treating our nation like a small child. But we were all small children who grew up left the nest and managed on our own, have a reasoned debate but to keep telling us to f**k off if you want but there will be no more handouts is ridiculous. The point above about proud to be British is good but it is very difficult to promote a position of retaining the status quo because obviously there are faults with it, you can't promise a utopia, and unfortunately you have to highlight negatives in the opposing view which doesn't lend itself to a positive vibe in your campaign. Leave off our mentions on the weather forecast, horizontal rain is our only link to national news (other than ritual child abuse case *of course).
*Since found to have no truth attached I must add!
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My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 22:13 - Sep 9 with 1120 views
My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 20:24 - Sep 9 by SpiritofGregory
Labour must be praying for a no vote as they rely heavily on votes in Scotland. A huge amount of Labour votes zapped overnight if the Scots vote yes.
Absolutely and 'Our Dave' has even more to lose. The PM who loses the union will go down in history as a complete disaster. It's doubtful he would be able to stand at the next election and the party will want him out sooner.
I think I've just changed my mind and now hoping for a Yes on the 18th.
[Post edited 9 Sep 2014 22:15]
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My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 22:16 - Sep 9 with 1110 views
My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 22:03 - Sep 9 by batmanhoop
listening to BBC South West they were debating the issue and it was mentioned there could be jobs transferred to the SW if the Yes vote is successful
If its true that there is oil off the West coast then if there is a no vote it could be a good political move that Trident is relocated so Scotland gets its nuclear free wish, SW gets a big boost of well paid jobs and theres a new oil boom?! Salmond would be furious and they'd have to get the oil out within 10 yrs before our next referendum!
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My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 22:16 - Sep 9 with 1109 views
Don't listen to all the scare stories. Don't worry about the economy, soverign, etc, etc. just think how do you want to be identified - Scottish or British? How do you want to describe yourself - a jock or a Brit? Do you want to carry a Scottish passport or a UK one. Forget all other arguments, it's are you proud of your race - that's the critical argument.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
-1
My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 22:20 - Sep 9 with 1102 views
My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 22:01 - Sep 9 by DWQPR
With Mark Carney making it clear today that a shared currency would be totally unacceptable for the rest of the union as the BofE would effectively be the lender of last resort for a Scottish spending spree, it looks as if the Scots would have to create their own currency pretty damned quick, which would be unproven, and the effects, especially if they renage on their portion of the national debt, will be much higher borrowing costs which in turn increases the cost of borrowing north of the border. RBS has already stated and made provision for relocation south as have Standard Life and no doubt other financial institutions will follow. There will be an exodus of wealth south. Consequently you will then see a Scottish government having to reign in spending, meaning the end of free prescriptions, free university places and lower pensions. And if they think that joining the EU will be the solution. Well from my understanding all existing member states have to agree, which I don't think the Spanish would be happy to do so, given that they do not wish to encourage the separatist movements of the Catalans and the Basques.
Finally, it shows how desparate the con is with Salmond. Only people residing within the borders of Scotland are allowed a vote. Why? Because the vast majority that live in the other parts of the UK would more than likely vote no. I suspect given the 18th the majority of Scots will wake up and realise that they have been taken for a ride by a dubious and devious individual.
Good post DW, very measured in my view.
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My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 22:22 - Sep 9 with 1093 views
My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 22:20 - Sep 9 by QPRMUSO
Good post DW, very measured in my view.
True, I think the first 2-3 years would be very difficult anyway but the casino banking system now where a business can be ruined with a run put on it by profiteers looking for a chink in the armour would add greatly to the problems. I hate it and is a curse on the modern world but it would happen, you are right.
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My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 22:27 - Sep 9 with 1085 views
My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 22:01 - Sep 9 by DWQPR
With Mark Carney making it clear today that a shared currency would be totally unacceptable for the rest of the union as the BofE would effectively be the lender of last resort for a Scottish spending spree, it looks as if the Scots would have to create their own currency pretty damned quick, which would be unproven, and the effects, especially if they renage on their portion of the national debt, will be much higher borrowing costs which in turn increases the cost of borrowing north of the border. RBS has already stated and made provision for relocation south as have Standard Life and no doubt other financial institutions will follow. There will be an exodus of wealth south. Consequently you will then see a Scottish government having to reign in spending, meaning the end of free prescriptions, free university places and lower pensions. And if they think that joining the EU will be the solution. Well from my understanding all existing member states have to agree, which I don't think the Spanish would be happy to do so, given that they do not wish to encourage the separatist movements of the Catalans and the Basques.
Finally, it shows how desparate the con is with Salmond. Only people residing within the borders of Scotland are allowed a vote. Why? Because the vast majority that live in the other parts of the UK would more than likely vote no. I suspect given the 18th the majority of Scots will wake up and realise that they have been taken for a ride by a dubious and devious individual.
As I understand it the GBP is a tradeable currency and if they wish they can use it and there is fck all Carney or anyone else can do about it.
You can also be sure after all the hot air and bluff of campaigning, if the outcome is Yes a seperate UK would also enter a formal currency agreement. It would be naive to believe otherwise. There is far too much wealth invested on both sides of the border and the City would demand it. Governments come and go and it's money that really calls the shots.
[Post edited 10 Sep 2014 7:29]
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My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 22:32 - Sep 9 with 1068 views
My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 22:10 - Sep 9 by karl
Nobody I know thinks that the UK will be handing over a penny after independence so to keep banging on about 'if they go tell them they'll get nothing more' is pointless and I think this is where a lot of the negative vibe has come from, you really are treating our nation like a small child. But we were all small children who grew up left the nest and managed on our own, have a reasoned debate but to keep telling us to f**k off if you want but there will be no more handouts is ridiculous. The point above about proud to be British is good but it is very difficult to promote a position of retaining the status quo because obviously there are faults with it, you can't promise a utopia, and unfortunately you have to highlight negatives in the opposing view which doesn't lend itself to a positive vibe in your campaign. Leave off our mentions on the weather forecast, horizontal rain is our only link to national news (other than ritual child abuse case *of course).
*Since found to have no truth attached I must add!
Everybody I know thinks we will be handing over much more than a penny after independance. It's how this country is...we were funding the Indian Space program until recently. An I'm not telling anyone to F**ck off...it's Scotland that wants the split, so I'm told. With a population ratio, UK to Scotland of around 11:1, most of the Uk revenue will come from south of the Border, but for some reason I have to fork out for my prescriptions and our kids don't get to go to University for free either. Do you think that will last, come independance. I dont see too many English MP's in Hollyrood either, whereas Westminster is full of Scots. We've got a few gripes with the status quo as well, you know!
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My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 22:32 - Sep 9 with 1067 views
My Dear Jock Brothers and Sisters.. on 22:10 - Sep 9 by karl
Nobody I know thinks that the UK will be handing over a penny after independence so to keep banging on about 'if they go tell them they'll get nothing more' is pointless and I think this is where a lot of the negative vibe has come from, you really are treating our nation like a small child. But we were all small children who grew up left the nest and managed on our own, have a reasoned debate but to keep telling us to f**k off if you want but there will be no more handouts is ridiculous. The point above about proud to be British is good but it is very difficult to promote a position of retaining the status quo because obviously there are faults with it, you can't promise a utopia, and unfortunately you have to highlight negatives in the opposing view which doesn't lend itself to a positive vibe in your campaign. Leave off our mentions on the weather forecast, horizontal rain is our only link to national news (other than ritual child abuse case *of course).
*Since found to have no truth attached I must add!
"it is very difficult to promote a position of retaining the status quo because obviously there are faults with it, you can't promise a utopia,"
Say what you like about the SNP and Salmond, they've got a vision of a new Scotland, free to do it's own thing. Not everyone buys it but a lot of people do.
I don't think ANYONE at Westminster can articulate a clear vision of where they want the UK to be in 10 years time. Never mind utopia, just some sort of idea of where we should be going. Thatcher, Blair, Attlee, Churchill, even Harold Wilson to some extent could all do that [leave aside whether or not you agree with that vision - chances are everyone on here will hate at least one of those.] In England it doesn't make much of a difference because you choose between three parties who have no vision - hence popularity of UKIP IMO - but in Scotland you've got an alternative.
Another interesting thing was a radio piece by a Scots academic who said that in social attitudes English and Scottish are pretty much identical - the proportions of liberals and conservatives are the same; but Scots THINK that they are much more inclusive and socially aware. So Salmond can say "vote Yes to build a fairer society" and some people will assume it's more likely if they aren't shackled to the English, who they assume are all Thatcherites.
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