| SCOTLAND 02:12 - Sep 18 with 10941 views | SonofNorfolt |
BTW
NOOOOOOOOOOOO.
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| SCOTLAND on 16:41 - Sep 18 with 1216 views | TheBlob |
Not without moving their lips or tracing the text with their index fingers? |  |
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| SCOTLAND on 16:46 - Sep 18 with 1205 views | kropotkin41 |
| SCOTLAND on 13:39 - Sep 18 by CiderwithRsie |
Krop, I like that "politics of Eeyore" line, but I really can't see anything positive in parochial nationalism for any country. I don't get why it's bad to self-identify as British but great to self-identify as Scottish. I don't get why it's bad to slag off East Europeans [which it is] but OK to slag off Londoners. I don't get why Little Englanders are bad but Little Scotlanders are good. Bad to blame your problems on foreigners but fine to blame them on a freely elected parliament.
And I don't buy the idea that the SNP is on the side of ordinary people vs the elites, any more than I do for UKIP; have you noticed just how pally Alec Salmond is with Donald Trump? I note that Genial Rupert Murdoch seems pretty pleased with the idea of Scotland putting two fingers up to the "Westminster elite" - but then Westminster blocked his BSkyB bid, which Salmond was busy lobbying for. [I can't get the link to work, but try googling Ian Dunt's piece in politics.co.uk on Alec Salmond's right wing backers - Alec Salmond + News International will bring it up. The pieces by Ian Dunt and Justine Brian there make the progressive case for the union far better than I ever could.]
Unionism, whether it's a trade union, the United Kingdom or dare I say the European Union, needn't be the politics of Eeyore, it should be the politics of coming together to overcome problems. |
I totally accept that argument, Cider. I'm absolutely no friend of nationalism and no dewy-eyed fan of Salmond. There are a number of reasons that I'm hoping for an apparently unlikely yes vote today, none of them to do with liking nationalism.
1. I hope that breaking the Union will bring us all down to Earth about our true place in the world. It might just take the last lowering of the Union Jack to stop us forever playing the Big Imperial power and fighting in stupid wars around the world.
2. I believe that the end of the Union would make all of us consider the way democracy might be, how it doesn't work now and should be in the future. This is a slim hope, but as my hope is for democracy in every community and every workplace I'll take almost any conversation that makes people think about what it might mean to be a real citizen.
3. I hope that the English regions and Wales would benefit from increased devolution.
4. I hope that Salmond would get seriously bitten on the ar*e by his own regionalist "problems".
I have no attachment to the UK or indeed to any nation state; all nation states are run in the interests of the ruling class. A very large part of my hope for a yes vote is just the hope that breaking something as big as the UK might induce the kind of shock we all need to address the problems we face.
Anyway, it seems that No is going to win and we'll see how far devo-max goes in the years to come. There may yet come a day when the No campaign wish they'd gone in '14, and certainly when the Unionists wish they'd accepted Scottish independence now rather than later under more acrimonious circumstances. |  |
| ‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’ |
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| SCOTLAND on 16:48 - Sep 18 with 1196 views | onlyrinmoray |
| SCOTLAND on 16:32 - Sep 18 by karl |
I voted this morning too.
Couple of points; the age group 16-24 yr old have consistently been a narrow No vote in all the polls so whatever happens it cannot be blamed on their 'idealism' skewing the vote.
It has been only mentioned in passing about Shetland and Orkney separating from Scotland, I did see last night that our joint MP, Alastair Carmichael, had raised the point again but there has been no open honest debate about it to my knowledge. |
Karl heard on the radio that Shetland has its own oil fund set up when oil was first found up there and the oil companies needed a base They've done very well out of it with great sports and entertainment facilities and other community benefits etc. Does Orkney have a similar fund ?
Not only Norway that had their head screwed on with oil revenues then |  | | |
| SCOTLAND on 16:50 - Sep 18 with 1183 views | TheBlob |
Well I for one,in all my pomp of having the political nous of an Equus Africanus,am really looking forward to Scotland being a Socialist paradise just like......errrrrrr.......ummmmmm.......yeeeessssssss....... | |
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| SCOTLAND on 16:56 - Sep 18 with 1172 views | Tonto |
I lived in Scotland for 7 years, and kinda get the "hate the English" element to the vote, as we are quite arrogant and annoying towards them.
but the biggest thing is the economic issue. i am yet to hear Salmond's basis that their economy will stand up, other than to contraduict stuff that comes from the No campaign.
What currency will they use? Salmond says they will use the pound (when they have already had a resounding no for that).
How are they going to pay their part of the debt? Salmond says they just wont
What is the long term income raising plan for after oil runs out in a few decades? Salmond just talks about oil revenues
Some companies WILL move south becuase of their concenrs. sal,mond just syays they wont.
Its a bit fingers in ears "lalalalal" stuff... If he had actually put forward a sensible arguement, I could have found myself supporting him. |  |
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| SCOTLAND on 17:06 - Sep 18 with 1141 views | Brightonhoop |
I hope it is a Yes, seems to be the only way to deveolve power from the twunts in Westminster for the whole of the UK. Other Regions and Cities will follow.
I think Salmond has farked it up by doing his denial thing, on the Euro first, when the Spanish told him to get to the back of the queue and apply for EU Membership like every new applicant, so flounced and has demadned they use the Pound afterall, despite Westminster and BoE saying No, no currency Union.
If there are 3 or 4 decades more oil, there might be time to build a financial cushion for when it runs out, like Norway has widely done, but SNP have not engaged this argument.
Likewise with the debt, stating they do not intend to repay it, will be treated by the International Lending markets as a default before the new Nation is even born. And with serious costs of establishing an Independent Scotland they are going to have to borrow a heap. Again, they just ignore the facts and choose to not engage the arguments that really matter. I suspect that will scare alot of Scots into voting No, sadly.
And forget exit polls, remember the '92 Election that had Kinnock on as a dead cert? Major was returned by record numbers. So anything could still happen. Interesting they are talking about a 97% turn out. |  | | |
| SCOTLAND on 17:06 - Sep 18 with 1140 views | TheBlob |
| SCOTLAND on 16:56 - Sep 18 by Tonto |
I lived in Scotland for 7 years, and kinda get the "hate the English" element to the vote, as we are quite arrogant and annoying towards them.
but the biggest thing is the economic issue. i am yet to hear Salmond's basis that their economy will stand up, other than to contraduict stuff that comes from the No campaign.
What currency will they use? Salmond says they will use the pound (when they have already had a resounding no for that).
How are they going to pay their part of the debt? Salmond says they just wont
What is the long term income raising plan for after oil runs out in a few decades? Salmond just talks about oil revenues
Some companies WILL move south becuase of their concenrs. sal,mond just syays they wont.
Its a bit fingers in ears "lalalalal" stuff... If he had actually put forward a sensible arguement, I could have found myself supporting him. |
It's a house built on shifting sand,what the hell is the definition of Independence anyway?It's an impossible concept in the 21st Century,just mental masturbation.You walk away from your share of the national debt you'll get pretty short shrift from financial institutions around the world.
All the old arguments you've heard,actually I'm hoping for a yes vote just to see them squirming on the spike shoved up their nethers.
It's going to do the shrewd speculators a favour.House prices will surge in England with the estimated 700,000 moving across the border.Punters will get in on the stock market dip.........hey,it's a win win. [Post edited 18 Sep 2014 17:07]
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| SCOTLAND on 17:12 - Sep 18 with 1124 views | smegma |
If it's YES, I think we should ban Mull Of Kintyre on our radios.
If it's NO, I think we should ban Mull Of Kintyre on our radios. |  | | |
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| SCOTLAND on 17:40 - Sep 18 with 1086 views | ElHoop |
Latest betting on betfair suggestes that it's going to be a No vote, and also that's it's more likely that the Yes vote will be under 45% than it is to be over 50%. Still far more likely to be between 45-50% but the betting suggests that it's nearer to 45 than 50. If the betting means anything at all! |  | | |
| SCOTLAND on 17:44 - Sep 18 with 1082 views | karl |
| SCOTLAND on 16:48 - Sep 18 by onlyrinmoray |
Karl heard on the radio that Shetland has its own oil fund set up when oil was first found up there and the oil companies needed a base They've done very well out of it with great sports and entertainment facilities and other community benefits etc. Does Orkney have a similar fund ?
Not only Norway that had their head screwed on with oil revenues then |
Yes Moray in Orkney we have an 'Oil reserve fund' similar to that of Shetland. It is money earnt by the use of Scapa Flow by the oil traffic, at the outset it was designated as a harbour thereby the local authority charges harbour dues for vessels entering and leaving the harbour as you would all around the UK coast. This money is approx £120m and a separate £45m which is to return the island of Flotta to its original state when the oil terminal is finished. I believe Shetlands fund is approx £650m, which reflects the fact their oil turnover is much larger than ours, both communities have used these funds to provide improved services and soften the blow of government cuts at various times (our internal ferry service being a prime example of us being short changed by the SNP administration and having to shore it up ourselves).
Great idea when they made the decision in the 70s and has certainly helped us as a community but does give a starting point for a mini state! |  | | |
| SCOTLAND on 17:58 - Sep 18 with 1057 views | jamois |
| SCOTLAND on 17:44 - Sep 18 by karl |
Yes Moray in Orkney we have an 'Oil reserve fund' similar to that of Shetland. It is money earnt by the use of Scapa Flow by the oil traffic, at the outset it was designated as a harbour thereby the local authority charges harbour dues for vessels entering and leaving the harbour as you would all around the UK coast. This money is approx £120m and a separate £45m which is to return the island of Flotta to its original state when the oil terminal is finished. I believe Shetlands fund is approx £650m, which reflects the fact their oil turnover is much larger than ours, both communities have used these funds to provide improved services and soften the blow of government cuts at various times (our internal ferry service being a prime example of us being short changed by the SNP administration and having to shore it up ourselves).
Great idea when they made the decision in the 70s and has certainly helped us as a community but does give a starting point for a mini state! |
The Scots are emotional folk and I believe that a 'Yes' vote was there for the taking. The problem has been they've had Salmond leading the charge. If it is a No then he should disappear from public life quick smart because he'll simply have farked it up. Anyone credible and presentable and I think the Yes vote would have walked this with momentum. |  |
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| SCOTLAND on 18:32 - Sep 18 with 1017 views | ElHoop |
I never thought that i'd say this, but Brown wasn't actually useless during this campaign. Could he make a comeback as Scottish Labour leader, regardless of the result? | | | |
| SCOTLAND on 19:41 - Sep 18 with 954 views | londonscottish |
| SCOTLAND on 18:32 - Sep 18 by ElHoop |
I never thought that i'd say this, but Brown wasn't actually useless during this campaign. Could he make a comeback as Scottish Labour leader, regardless of the result? |
Brown was last very good in the financial meltdown in 2008. He does choose his moments. |  |
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| SCOTLAND on 20:07 - Sep 18 with 913 views | gobbles |
| SCOTLAND on 11:14 - Sep 18 by BlackCrowe |
Stop Press - Andy Murray just announced that he's backing the Yes campaign.
From 480 miles way in his 8 bedroom mansion in Oxshott, Surrey. Assume you'll be giving back your GB Olympic gold medal then Andy - no, thought not. Good luck at Wimbledon next year. |
Why would he give back his Olympic gold medal, he won it? You can't really believe that Great Britain's conveyor belt of tennis champions was responsible |  | | |
| SCOTLAND on 20:39 - Sep 18 with 880 views | Monahoop |
| SCOTLAND on 14:35 - Sep 18 by simmo |
Just read that apparently up to 8% of voters will vote incorrectly after being confused about the difference between voting 'Yes' or 'No'.
I.E. 'Yes' i want to stay as part of Britain
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It's a good job old Jim Trott from the Vicar of Dibley isn't Scottish.
'How will you vote Jim?'
Jim.' Yes,yes,yes, yes, yes, no, no no,no, no no no, yes, yes, no er ....... |  |
| There aint half been some clever bastards. |
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| SCOTLAND on 21:02 - Sep 18 with 837 views | ElHoop |
| SCOTLAND on 19:41 - Sep 18 by londonscottish |
Brown was last very good in the financial meltdown in 2008. He does choose his moments. |
I think that you might be right there. I've pretty much deleted Brown from my mind, other than him still being on the 'useless c*nt' list, but something rings a bell in terms of him staying on the sinking ship and barking orders which weren't wholly shite. | | | |
| SCOTLAND on 21:17 - Sep 18 with 822 views | londonscottish |
| SCOTLAND on 21:02 - Sep 18 by ElHoop |
I think that you might be right there. I've pretty much deleted Brown from my mind, other than him still being on the 'useless c*nt' list, but something rings a bell in terms of him staying on the sinking ship and barking orders which weren't wholly shite. |
Yeah that's the one. | |
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| SCOTLAND on 21:35 - Sep 18 with 794 views | Clive_Anderson |
| SCOTLAND on 19:41 - Sep 18 by londonscottish |
Brown was last very good in the financial meltdown in 2008. He does choose his moments. |
The useless twt removed the banking regulation creating the banking boom purely so it would still be going when he got to be prime minister and then he handed out our money to them no strings attached when it all went tits up because he didn't want to rock the boat before the next election. He also failed to regulate them after they went bust so it's going to happen all over again in a couple of years. | | | |
| SCOTLAND on 21:53 - Sep 18 with 767 views | SomersetHoops |
| SCOTLAND on 19:41 - Sep 18 by londonscottish |
Brown was last very good in the financial meltdown in 2008. He does choose his moments. |
If you mean by being very good that he was responsible for a large part of our financial crisis then you would be right. He also destroyed pension funds when chancellor and got rid of our gold reserves at a stupidly low price. The guy is a disaster and just because he can shout well doesn't make him any better. He was the epitome of short termism as chancellor making sneaky tax changes that he thought people were too stupid to notice. Well only some people were and apart from the global slow down, his policies made it worse for us than it needed to be by not putting money into reserves during the good times.
Does nobody remember him saying there will be no boom and bust under this government followed by the biggest bust seen since the depression. He really is one of the worst politicians we've had to suffer in decades including his dirty tricks department working against members of his own party. I really do hope the Scots vote yes if just to keep that a..hole out of England. |  |
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| SCOTLAND on 21:55 - Sep 18 with 763 views | TheBlob |
| SCOTLAND on 21:35 - Sep 18 by Clive_Anderson |
The useless twt removed the banking regulation creating the banking boom purely so it would still be going when he got to be prime minister and then he handed out our money to them no strings attached when it all went tits up because he didn't want to rock the boat before the next election. He also failed to regulate them after they went bust so it's going to happen all over again in a couple of years. |
Sold 400 tons of our gold at a knock down price. | |
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| SCOTLAND on 21:57 - Sep 18 with 759 views | FDC |
| SCOTLAND on 16:46 - Sep 18 by kropotkin41 |
I totally accept that argument, Cider. I'm absolutely no friend of nationalism and no dewy-eyed fan of Salmond. There are a number of reasons that I'm hoping for an apparently unlikely yes vote today, none of them to do with liking nationalism.
1. I hope that breaking the Union will bring us all down to Earth about our true place in the world. It might just take the last lowering of the Union Jack to stop us forever playing the Big Imperial power and fighting in stupid wars around the world.
2. I believe that the end of the Union would make all of us consider the way democracy might be, how it doesn't work now and should be in the future. This is a slim hope, but as my hope is for democracy in every community and every workplace I'll take almost any conversation that makes people think about what it might mean to be a real citizen.
3. I hope that the English regions and Wales would benefit from increased devolution.
4. I hope that Salmond would get seriously bitten on the ar*e by his own regionalist "problems".
I have no attachment to the UK or indeed to any nation state; all nation states are run in the interests of the ruling class. A very large part of my hope for a yes vote is just the hope that breaking something as big as the UK might induce the kind of shock we all need to address the problems we face.
Anyway, it seems that No is going to win and we'll see how far devo-max goes in the years to come. There may yet come a day when the No campaign wish they'd gone in '14, and certainly when the Unionists wish they'd accepted Scottish independence now rather than later under more acrimonious circumstances. |
" A very large part of my hope for a yes vote is just the hope that breaking something as big as the UK might induce the kind of shock we all need to address the problems we face."
There's a lot of this doing the rounds. I prob want a Yes for the shits and giggles. But j can't understand why anyone would think that political disarray would lead to left formations. Given the historical low point of the left in this country I'd have thought the right stand to gain more at the moment surely. "Our" focus really shouldn't be on this kind of thing at the moment imo. Other than for the spectacle obviously. Strategically the left stands to gain nowt from this imo. [Post edited 18 Sep 2014 22:31]
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| SCOTLAND on 22:07 - Sep 18 with 736 views | Clive_Anderson |
| SCOTLAND on 21:55 - Sep 18 by TheBlob |
Sold 400 tons of our gold at a knock down price. |
Yes and to save an American investment bank from bankruptcy too. What a hero.
Should be in jail for treason and yet now everyone is patting him on the back for a speech which ends up promising the jocks even more of the english money without consulting parliament. | | | |
| SCOTLAND on 22:08 - Sep 18 with 731 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| SCOTLAND on 22:07 - Sep 18 by Clive_Anderson |
Yes and to save an American investment bank from bankruptcy too. What a hero.
Should be in jail for treason and yet now everyone is patting him on the back for a speech which ends up promising the jocks even more of the english money without consulting parliament. |
Gordon Brown thrown in jail!
I knew we'd come to an agreement tonight Clive! |  | | |
| SCOTLAND on 22:10 - Sep 18 with 727 views | londonscottish |
| SCOTLAND on 21:35 - Sep 18 by Clive_Anderson |
The useless twt removed the banking regulation creating the banking boom purely so it would still be going when he got to be prime minister and then he handed out our money to them no strings attached when it all went tits up because he didn't want to rock the boat before the next election. He also failed to regulate them after they went bust so it's going to happen all over again in a couple of years. |
Ah, yes, you have a point. He was part of the (global) movement towards light touch regulation which led to the meltdown.
Still, he talked a good talk once it all went tits up :-) | |
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| SCOTLAND on 22:13 - Sep 18 with 718 views | londonscottish |
| SCOTLAND on 21:55 - Sep 18 by TheBlob |
Sold 400 tons of our gold at a knock down price. |
Oh yeah. That too.....
(still like his No speech, though) | |
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