| Zonal marking 17:29 - Oct 5 with 2134 views | BklynRanger |
That's what we're doing isn't it? Or supposed to be doing. Maybe we should stop it?
Bolton's first goal on Saturday for example, both Bolton forwards just ran right down the border between the two impenetrable force fields that Hall and Konchesky had set up in front of King Green. Piece of piss.
I also noticed JET saying he's not much of a man marker defensive-wise, but he can head it away if it comes at him. That's perfect, JET, in fact it's more than any of the actual defenders are doing.
Obviously I'm no expert, but Ramsey's got 2 weeks now to try and sort the defence out. In the absence of some wise old defensive advisor showing up in the car park maybe he should concentrate on getting rid of the zonal shyte? |  | | |  |
| Zonal marking on 17:35 - Oct 5 with 2127 views | TacticalR |
I think we're operating the no marking system. |  |
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| Zonal marking on 17:50 - Oct 5 with 2085 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Like the line that the problem with defending zonally is that no team attacks zonally. |  |
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| Zonal marking on 17:50 - Oct 5 with 2080 views | bosh67 |
It's the root of the problem for me. Every set piece and every retreating position we go zonal and it really is hideous. Neither Hall or Angella were assigned to stand all over Madine and as a result he ghosted in a scored and then ran riot. It doesn't work. Our defence marks space and you can only do that if you are quick and our defence isn't.
I have rarely seen the system work and Liverpool, Chelsea, etc have all abandoned it. Chelsea have other defensive problems now. Yet we insist on coaching it, rather than old fashioned man marking. At corners and free kicks I scream from the stand mark up and then watch the ball float over the heads or around our players who are standing protecting 5 square metres of grass.
Add to that a midfield that marks the centre circle and rarely sinks back to back up the back 4 and it is a recipe for disaster.
Individual errors come from players who are playing a system that clearly doesn't work. But to be honest I can't see it changing because the coaching staff appear set on getting it right. They won't. [Post edited 5 Oct 2015 17:51]
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| Zonal marking on 18:06 - Oct 5 with 2060 views | TacticalR |
Our guys are not in the zone. | |
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| Zonal marking on 18:13 - Oct 5 with 2043 views | TheBlob |
Trouble is they're all marking the same zone,usually where the ball isn't. |  |
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| Zonal marking on 21:52 - Oct 5 with 1913 views | Hooparoo |
You would think that the players could just sort it out themselves on the field. Our captain should be organising those around him. Certainly what I did when I played. I was hoarse at the end of most games I played. I doubt any of ours are. |  |
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| Zonal marking on 22:07 - Oct 5 with 1898 views | Stanisgod |
| Zonal marking on 21:52 - Oct 5 by Hooparoo |
You would think that the players could just sort it out themselves on the field. Our captain should be organising those around him. Certainly what I did when I played. I was hoarse at the end of most games I played. I doubt any of ours are. |
To be fair, Henry normally is hoarse during a game...... Oh sorry I meant donkey. |  |
| It's being so happy that keeps me going. |
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| Zonal marking on 22:19 - Oct 5 with 1882 views | baz_qpr |
Last time we tried Zonal was under Waddock and Macca, that did not end well. Used to play it under Gerry |  | | |
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| Zonal marking on 01:12 - Oct 6 with 1833 views | isawqpratwcity |
| Zonal marking on 22:07 - Oct 5 by Stanisgod |
To be fair, Henry normally is hoarse during a game...... Oh sorry I meant donkey. |
Pony. |  |
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| Zonal marking on 14:48 - Oct 6 with 1669 views | Dorse |
When was the last time a zone scored against us?
Point made. Dorse 1, Universe 0.
(Dorse leaves the podium to raucous cheers of approbation, is presented a posey of flowers by an urchin in Victorian dress and is escorted to the waiting helicopter by a bevy of bikini-clad models / ninja bodyguards). |  |
| 'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!' |
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| Zonal marking on 15:34 - Oct 6 with 1643 views | londonscottish |
| Zonal marking on 17:50 - Oct 5 by bosh67 |
It's the root of the problem for me. Every set piece and every retreating position we go zonal and it really is hideous. Neither Hall or Angella were assigned to stand all over Madine and as a result he ghosted in a scored and then ran riot. It doesn't work. Our defence marks space and you can only do that if you are quick and our defence isn't.
I have rarely seen the system work and Liverpool, Chelsea, etc have all abandoned it. Chelsea have other defensive problems now. Yet we insist on coaching it, rather than old fashioned man marking. At corners and free kicks I scream from the stand mark up and then watch the ball float over the heads or around our players who are standing protecting 5 square metres of grass.
Add to that a midfield that marks the centre circle and rarely sinks back to back up the back 4 and it is a recipe for disaster.
Individual errors come from players who are playing a system that clearly doesn't work. But to be honest I can't see it changing because the coaching staff appear set on getting it right. They won't. [Post edited 5 Oct 2015 17:51]
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For their first two goals Hall is left standing stock still a couple of metres from the goal line looking up the pitch whilst Bolton go round the back and score.
He looks confused and pissed off but has obviously told to STAND THERE. So he does. |  |
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| Zonal marking on 15:56 - Oct 6 with 1624 views | BklynRanger |
| Zonal marking on 22:19 - Oct 5 by baz_qpr |
Last time we tried Zonal was under Waddock and Macca, that did not end well. Used to play it under Gerry |
So Macca was doing zonal defending under Gerry and then decided to use it with us as a manager? I never knew that.
That might explain some of the lack of success so far: you need to have at at least one player like Alan who would absolutely snap you in two if you entered his 'zone', which we clearly don't have. | | | |
| Zonal marking on 17:51 - Oct 6 with 1580 views | TacticalR |
| Zonal marking on 14:48 - Oct 6 by Dorse |
When was the last time a zone scored against us?
Point made. Dorse 1, Universe 0.
(Dorse leaves the podium to raucous cheers of approbation, is presented a posey of flowers by an urchin in Victorian dress and is escorted to the waiting helicopter by a bevy of bikini-clad models / ninja bodyguards). |
You might be in the Twilight Zone. | |
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| Zonal marking on 18:15 - Oct 6 with 1554 views | Neil_SI |
The defensive issues are to do with our inability to defend well on the counter attack, which we were caught out several times by against Bolton.
Their first goal was a direct counter attack from a free-kick we had. It came directly after Tozser crossed well for Onouha to head into Ben Amos' hands. At this point, we had a lot of players forward and didn't react quickly enough to the speed Amos' distributed. They were prepared to hit us fast on the counter in any situation where they picked up the ball and play broke down.
The problem is more to do with dealing with changeover of possession, which doesn't come easy for new teams. Mark Hughes' team suffered from this horrifically and I recall that opening day defeat against Swansea City where they trounced us 5-0 and where we suffered many of the same kind of problems, despite the so called quality of the squad.
It takes time for people to learn the temperament of each other and understand who's responsible for going where when these things happened. We had a lot of honest chasers after the ball, but we were too slow initially and that caused some panic and a number of players to be attracted to the ball and the shape to become lopsided. It was then simply switched to the other side and fired into the box for a simple header for Madine.
There are plenty of things we could have done better, including having an attacking player disrupt the keeper momentarily before he throws out, something we only achieved for the first-time, right at the depth of the game, and perhaps to take less risks at set pieces and leave one or two more players back to ensure there is adequate cover and shape. And of course you need the players to be braver and take more responsibility. It's easy to pass the buck in these moments, and hope someone else mops it up and we probably have had a little too much of that happening at this point.
Redknapp's time with us was so much less risk. He just sat everybody back behind the ball, making it impossible for us to be broken down, and in the rare times we were through sloppy play, the lack of clinical finishing meant we got away with a lot (Jermaine Beckford's one on one that he missed after being put through by Barton springs to mind). But that also led to a lack of inspiration for the team and a lack of opportunity to actually work on these aspects of play.
That's why I'm not overly worried at the moment. The players and the team need this experience to improve, and Ramsey himself will need to decide when to shut the door or not. He's remaining true to his belief and philosophy in trying to let them express themselves, and asking the question of the players to deal with the scenarios that they face with their quality.
Over time, I think we'll improve on this and find a better balance, but we do have a lot of attack minded players, and actually any defensive work needs to be done from the front first. |  | | |
| Zonal marking on 18:25 - Oct 6 with 1539 views | BklynRanger |
Plus the zonal thing - let's not forget about the zonal thing.... | | | |
| Zonal marking on 18:29 - Oct 6 with 1536 views | Antti_Heinola |
Good points Neil.
I think, again, some of the zonal v man-to-man arguments follow the Football Manager comments Dave Mc has made.
This zonal stuff ain't working - let's go man-to-man! *clicks man-to-man button*.
The reality is of course far more complex. After all, Cardiff's first goal back came because Clint Hill lost his man, not because he was marking space. And Bolton's third came at least in part from Angella not challenging for a high ball - he was in the right area to head it, he just didn't do it.
I don't think Hall was told to stand where he was for the first goal, either - Angella had just got sucked out to try and cover the break, which left a yawning gap in the middle. |  |
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| Zonal marking on 18:39 - Oct 6 with 1528 views | TacticalR |
| Zonal marking on 18:29 - Oct 6 by Antti_Heinola |
Good points Neil.
I think, again, some of the zonal v man-to-man arguments follow the Football Manager comments Dave Mc has made.
This zonal stuff ain't working - let's go man-to-man! *clicks man-to-man button*.
The reality is of course far more complex. After all, Cardiff's first goal back came because Clint Hill lost his man, not because he was marking space. And Bolton's third came at least in part from Angella not challenging for a high ball - he was in the right area to head it, he just didn't do it.
I don't think Hall was told to stand where he was for the first goal, either - Angella had just got sucked out to try and cover the break, which left a yawning gap in the middle. |
Why do gaps suddenly appear
Every time you are near?
I think we've got our song for Angella sorted. | |
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| Zonal marking on 19:12 - Oct 6 with 1504 views | BklynRanger |
| Zonal marking on 18:29 - Oct 6 by Antti_Heinola |
Good points Neil.
I think, again, some of the zonal v man-to-man arguments follow the Football Manager comments Dave Mc has made.
This zonal stuff ain't working - let's go man-to-man! *clicks man-to-man button*.
The reality is of course far more complex. After all, Cardiff's first goal back came because Clint Hill lost his man, not because he was marking space. And Bolton's third came at least in part from Angella not challenging for a high ball - he was in the right area to head it, he just didn't do it.
I don't think Hall was told to stand where he was for the first goal, either - Angella had just got sucked out to try and cover the break, which left a yawning gap in the middle. |
Quite right too - no need for the destabilizing speculation of wondering things aloud. Let's all just keep our mouths shut, watch Emmerdale and leave it to the professionals. | | | |
| Zonal marking on 19:12 - Oct 6 with 1503 views | Neil_SI |
| Zonal marking on 18:25 - Oct 6 by BklynRanger |
Plus the zonal thing - let's not forget about the zonal thing.... |
I'm not sure if it really is zonal in that example, but there are times in these situations where you have to mark zonally or man mark, it just depends on how the play unfolds. If you're outnumbered momentarily there may be a need to mark zonally to try and counterbalance that problem, otherwise it's man for man until you've got your shape and position.
Zonal marking or rather, zonal positioning is very useful, but we don't teach that very well in this country. There's a lot of science when it comes to it, if you're willing to study the mathematics behind it, the angles and ball physics, and how that relates to body dynamics and effective reading of the play — you can nullify problems, reduce options and therefore the probability of danger. It's also an effective way of retrieving possession without engagement.
The Germans have always been excellent at this. Actually it's why despite Per Mertesacker, despite being tall and slow, has been as successful as he has over his career and why he can cut it in the Premier League, because he doesn't need his pace and tried to avoid situations that put him into that position of weakness. He had a tricky start as he adapted, but once he made the adjustments, he's only been troubled on the odd occasion here and there over a lengthy period of time.
For us, we need to do a better job of reducing the options that the player on the ball has, and read the play effectively enough to understand if that player makes a successful pass, what options does it give the receiver? In this moment, there are clear choices certain players going man for man and certain players going zonal to take care of the situation, but decision making at split seconds like these, and having good telepathy with your team-mates takes time. It's what I mean about temperament and understanding what someone is going to do in any given moment. That doesn't come overnight no matter how good the players may be. | | | |
| Zonal marking on 19:42 - Oct 6 with 1480 views | londonscottish |
| Zonal marking on 18:39 - Oct 6 by TacticalR |
Why do gaps suddenly appear
Every time you are near?
I think we've got our song for Angella sorted. |
Why do gaps suddenly appear
Every time you are near?
It's because
They don't want to be
Close to you | |
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