| Hillsborough 11:27 - Apr 26 with 18065 views | E17hoop |
The truth seems to be finally out.
JFT96 |  |
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| Hillsborough on 13:32 - Apr 26 with 2786 views | johncharles |
| Hillsborough on 13:05 - Apr 26 by stowmarketrange |
Do you think that if 39 Liverpool fans had died instead of Italian ones that Uefa wouldn't have banned the Italian clubs from European competitions?
Or maybe it was the trouble that was mainly caused by English clubs's fans over a 15 year period beforehand? |
96 Liverpool fans died at Hillsborough and we were told for nearly 30 years it was their own fault. If 39 Liverpool fans had died at Heyse I'm sure the press, the FA a the government would still have accepted the blame on behalf of English football. The real culprit the day was the old and decrepit, not fit for purpose Heysel stadium.
All football related trouble in Europe at the time was the fault of Enlish fans according to the FA and the press. I remember an incident in Germany where a train carrying English supporters arrived at a station which was packed with German thugs who immediately attacked them. I remember how the English fans got the blame. I also remember the German police officer in charge saying that the English were NOT to blame.
Next day in the papers "English Shame" |  |
| Strong and stable my arse. |
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| Hillsborough on 13:32 - Apr 26 with 2788 views | CamberleyR |
The game wasn't televised live. The BBC only started to show live pictures when the game had been abandoned after six minutes and they realised something serious was unfolding. |  |
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| Hillsborough on 13:33 - Apr 26 with 2782 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Excellent news.
But those that maintain that some Liverpool fans may have contributed to the danger may have a point, I hate to say, by arriving late and by running. That's not to say that the unlawful killing is on their consciences - arriving late and running should never, never lead to deaths in any circumstance. Unless you add in cruelty and barbarism on the part of the authorities.
What's also uncomfortably true is that anyone from Rangers or any other club who engaged in hooliganism also contributed to the danger in that they helped create an environment where steel cages were deemed necessary.
I am delighted for the families that they got the correct verdict, but all fans of the 70's and 80's must also look inward. |  |
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| Hillsborough on 13:34 - Apr 26 with 2774 views | jonno |
| Hillsborough on 12:54 - Apr 26 by stowmarketrange |
We ALL used to do the same at away grounds and still do.We get to the nearest pub and drink until 2.55 and expect to still be able to see the start of the match.The difference now is that there are seats replacing terraces and fences.
We had the same situation at Loftus Road last month with Birmingham fans,but luckily there were no serious injuries.
No venue in the world could cope with very large numbers turning up 5 minutes before the show and allow everyone in safely for the start of that show.
The authorities must take the majority of the blame,but every fan who arrived late was also a contributory factor in the loss of 96 innocent people.IF there were fans who tried to get in without tickets,their role will never be mentioned,and IF they are still around,their actions must also weigh on their consciences.
I used to turn at 2.55 myself and expect to get in see the Rangers ko,but luckily it never caused the problems that occurred at Hillsborough on that horrible day. |
The jury has exonerated the fans of any blame for what happened at Hillsborough. You appear to know better than a jury which has seen all the evidence? |  | | |
| Hillsborough on 13:34 - Apr 26 with 2770 views | stowmarketrange |
| Hillsborough on 13:18 - Apr 26 by Brightonhoop |
Yes I did, most saturdays all over the country.
Were you present at Hillsborough, on that day, and if not why do you pursue what the Jury has already concluded? Do you also conclude they weren't unlawfully killed as well? |
No I wasn't there.I was at Loftus Road instead.And no,I not disputing that they were unlawfully killed,and that mostly due to failures by the authorities,which was disgracefully covered up for years.But we will never know what happened outside Hillsborough on the day.We only know that the actions of many people contributed to the deaths of 96 fans.
I have to say that the actions of all football fans in those years preceding Hillsborough were also a factor in why they died.This isn't a dig at scousers because it could've been any team with a large following playing there that day.It almost happened the year before with Spurs fans too I think.
Who do you blame for Birmingham incident this year?And could that have lead to serious injuries on the day? |  | | |
| Hillsborough on 13:40 - Apr 26 with 2738 views | stowmarketrange |
| Hillsborough on 13:34 - Apr 26 by jonno |
The jury has exonerated the fans of any blame for what happened at Hillsborough. You appear to know better than a jury which has seen all the evidence? |
So are you saying that possibly 1000's of fans arriving later than some others didn't contribute to 96 people being unlawfully killed? | | | |
| Hillsborough on 13:45 - Apr 26 with 2714 views | jonno |
| Hillsborough on 13:40 - Apr 26 by stowmarketrange |
So are you saying that possibly 1000's of fans arriving later than some others didn't contribute to 96 people being unlawfully killed? |
I'm not. The jury, who have seen all the evidence, are. | | | |
| Hillsborough on 13:46 - Apr 26 with 2708 views | Jigsore |
now just waiting for Kelvin Mackenzie's horrific karmic death and i'll be happy |  |
| “The thing about football - the important thing about football - is that it is not just about football.†|
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| Hillsborough on 13:53 - Apr 26 with 2649 views | Rangersw12 |
| Hillsborough on 13:45 - Apr 26 by jonno |
I'm not. The jury, who have seen all the evidence, are. |
They were also told by the judge to be wary of any evidence against the fans behaviour
To say all Liverpool fans are 100% exonerated of blame is a bit far fetched but it was inevitable they were going to go that way with all the hype and it would of taken a very brave jury to rule any otherway
Anyway let's hope the OB do get prosecuted amd the people who covered it up |  | | |
| Hillsborough on 14:00 - Apr 26 with 2624 views | paulparker |
| Hillsborough on 13:34 - Apr 26 by stowmarketrange |
No I wasn't there.I was at Loftus Road instead.And no,I not disputing that they were unlawfully killed,and that mostly due to failures by the authorities,which was disgracefully covered up for years.But we will never know what happened outside Hillsborough on the day.We only know that the actions of many people contributed to the deaths of 96 fans.
I have to say that the actions of all football fans in those years preceding Hillsborough were also a factor in why they died.This isn't a dig at scousers because it could've been any team with a large following playing there that day.It almost happened the year before with Spurs fans too I think.
Who do you blame for Birmingham incident this year?And could that have lead to serious injuries on the day? |
not only that game but a couple of years before Millwall were at luton and they took hundreds if not thousands of fans who didn't have tickets , the police panicked when some fans broke the fences because they were getting crushed, that's what caused that
it could have been millwall that day who lost fans
who remembers the year before when we played West Ham in the cup(pizanti) they got in without tickets it was lucky there wasn't fences otherwise we could of had the same thing
it was the times unfortunately , it was the era of football then for the big games
Hillsborough was the day it went boss eyed for the authorities if all those who just turned up with tickets got in then it probably wouldn't of happened, but it did because that was the era , it wasn't even on the box like it would be today
hopefully those who were smeared get there names cleared and those who lied and covered it up get nicked, as ive said the police, the fa , the government were to blame ultimately but your right to say that some Liverpool fans must share some of the blame to |  |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| Hillsborough on 14:01 - Apr 26 with 2626 views | Brightonhoop |
| Hillsborough on 13:34 - Apr 26 by stowmarketrange |
No I wasn't there.I was at Loftus Road instead.And no,I not disputing that they were unlawfully killed,and that mostly due to failures by the authorities,which was disgracefully covered up for years.But we will never know what happened outside Hillsborough on the day.We only know that the actions of many people contributed to the deaths of 96 fans.
I have to say that the actions of all football fans in those years preceding Hillsborough were also a factor in why they died.This isn't a dig at scousers because it could've been any team with a large following playing there that day.It almost happened the year before with Spurs fans too I think.
Who do you blame for Birmingham incident this year?And could that have lead to serious injuries on the day? |
I wasn't there either so we will never know. However a Jury has delivered on a two year hearing, of all evidence, and reached their conclusions. We cant cherry pick the verdicts we like and ones we dont like.
No more than we can say Hillsborough was somehow related to Heysel. The fences going up were stupid, confirmed by the very quick removal post Hillsborough.
Certainly, some supporters of the era were out of control, but then as now, ALL football supporters get treated like $h1t by various police forces around the country often provoking a reaction in potentially dangerous situations because they are too thick to do otherwise. Stoke is a prime example., they are allowed to gather outside the away and rain bricks down supporters leaving that end. And it's gone on for years.
Re Birmingham recently, it's a totally different world, and police now have far better intelligence on hooligans plus banning orders. So one of two things is happening, either people on banning orders are travelling to games anyway regardless. Or police intelligence isn't so good and hundreds of unknown hooligans are making themselves known. Hardly reasonable that anyone should seek to blame QPR supporters on Ellerslie Road being attacked by 40-50 Birmingham hoolies. But that's what happened, all Pool supporters were blamed for Heysel, All English Clubs were banned from Europe as a result, and it was convenient for the State to blame supporters outside despite the very clear failings, and near misses previously at that ground, egged on by an insane press that were quite happy to slander the dead in support of the whole political spectrum against ordinary people who go to the football. It could have been any of us. Now the verdicts are in those responsible need to be held to account urgently.
Let's all hope it can never happen again. |  | | |
| Hillsborough on 14:05 - Apr 26 with 2599 views | simmo |
For a very long time, David Conn has been the only journalist that has stuck with this and kept it alive. I've just finished his book and there's a lot dedicated to Hillsborough in that, more than 10 years ago he was interviewing and working with the families, trying to get answers. I am sure he also took a lot of satisfaction from today. |  |
| ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead |
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| Hillsborough on 14:19 - Apr 26 with 2556 views | traininvain |
Let’s not forget the words of London’s Mayor, from as recently as 2004:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2004/10/bigleys-fate/
Liverpool is a handsome city with a tribal sense of community. A combination of economic misfortune – its docks were, fundamentally, on the wrong side of England when Britain entered what is now the European Union – and an excessive predilection for welfarism have created a peculiar, and deeply unattractive, psyche among many Liverpudlians. They see themselves whenever possible as victims, and resent their victim status; yet at the same time they wallow in it. Part of this flawed psychological state is that they cannot accept that they might have made any contribution to their misfortunes, but seek rather to blame someone else for it, thereby deepening their sense of shared tribal grievance against the rest of society. The deaths of more than 50 Liverpool football supporters at Hillsborough in 1989 was undeniably a greater tragedy than the single death, however horrible, of Mr Bigley; but that is no excuse for Liverpool’s failure to acknowledge, even to this day, the part played in the disaster by drunken fans at the back of the crowd who mindlessly tried to fight their way into the ground that Saturday afternoon. The police became a convenient scapegoat, and the Sun newspaper a whipping-boy for daring, albeit in a tasteless fashion, to hint at the wider causes of the incident. |  | | |
| Hillsborough on 14:20 - Apr 26 with 2553 views | jonno |
| Hillsborough on 13:53 - Apr 26 by Rangersw12 |
They were also told by the judge to be wary of any evidence against the fans behaviour
To say all Liverpool fans are 100% exonerated of blame is a bit far fetched but it was inevitable they were going to go that way with all the hype and it would of taken a very brave jury to rule any otherway
Anyway let's hope the OB do get prosecuted amd the people who covered it up |
OK, so you are saying that this verdict was a foregone conclusion and that the judge instructed the jury to ignore any evidence which showed bad behaviour by the fans contributed to the disaster.
Where is your evidence for that? | | | |
| Hillsborough on 14:22 - Apr 26 with 2349 views | stowmarketrange |
| Hillsborough on 14:01 - Apr 26 by Brightonhoop |
I wasn't there either so we will never know. However a Jury has delivered on a two year hearing, of all evidence, and reached their conclusions. We cant cherry pick the verdicts we like and ones we dont like.
No more than we can say Hillsborough was somehow related to Heysel. The fences going up were stupid, confirmed by the very quick removal post Hillsborough.
Certainly, some supporters of the era were out of control, but then as now, ALL football supporters get treated like $h1t by various police forces around the country often provoking a reaction in potentially dangerous situations because they are too thick to do otherwise. Stoke is a prime example., they are allowed to gather outside the away and rain bricks down supporters leaving that end. And it's gone on for years.
Re Birmingham recently, it's a totally different world, and police now have far better intelligence on hooligans plus banning orders. So one of two things is happening, either people on banning orders are travelling to games anyway regardless. Or police intelligence isn't so good and hundreds of unknown hooligans are making themselves known. Hardly reasonable that anyone should seek to blame QPR supporters on Ellerslie Road being attacked by 40-50 Birmingham hoolies. But that's what happened, all Pool supporters were blamed for Heysel, All English Clubs were banned from Europe as a result, and it was convenient for the State to blame supporters outside despite the very clear failings, and near misses previously at that ground, egged on by an insane press that were quite happy to slander the dead in support of the whole political spectrum against ordinary people who go to the football. It could have been any of us. Now the verdicts are in those responsible need to be held to account urgently.
Let's all hope it can never happen again. |
We agree on most things regarding the verdicts,and we definitely agree that it shouldn't ever be allowed to happen again.With the benefits of all seated stadiums it probably won't.
I also hope that those who covered up the truth with lies are properly prosecuted,and the papers who printed lies are brought to book too.Especially the Sun. | | | |
| Hillsborough on 14:24 - Apr 26 with 2337 views | Maggsinho |
Horrific and chilling but so important, brilliant dissection of what happened. |  | | |
| Hillsborough on 14:27 - Apr 26 with 2316 views | Brightonhoop |
| Hillsborough on 14:22 - Apr 26 by stowmarketrange |
We agree on most things regarding the verdicts,and we definitely agree that it shouldn't ever be allowed to happen again.With the benefits of all seated stadiums it probably won't.
I also hope that those who covered up the truth with lies are properly prosecuted,and the papers who printed lies are brought to book too.Especially the Sun. |
Yep, in total agreement, cant argue with that. Dof cap smiley thing. | | | |
| Hillsborough on 14:32 - Apr 26 with 2296 views | Rangersw12 |
| Hillsborough on 14:20 - Apr 26 by jonno |
OK, so you are saying that this verdict was a foregone conclusion and that the judge instructed the jury to ignore any evidence which showed bad behaviour by the fans contributed to the disaster.
Where is your evidence for that? |
Read it on bbc site at the time of the summing up before the jury went out | | | |
| Hillsborough on 14:32 - Apr 26 with 2296 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Hillsborough on 14:19 - Apr 26 by traininvain |
Let’s not forget the words of London’s Mayor, from as recently as 2004:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2004/10/bigleys-fate/
Liverpool is a handsome city with a tribal sense of community. A combination of economic misfortune – its docks were, fundamentally, on the wrong side of England when Britain entered what is now the European Union – and an excessive predilection for welfarism have created a peculiar, and deeply unattractive, psyche among many Liverpudlians. They see themselves whenever possible as victims, and resent their victim status; yet at the same time they wallow in it. Part of this flawed psychological state is that they cannot accept that they might have made any contribution to their misfortunes, but seek rather to blame someone else for it, thereby deepening their sense of shared tribal grievance against the rest of society. The deaths of more than 50 Liverpool football supporters at Hillsborough in 1989 was undeniably a greater tragedy than the single death, however horrible, of Mr Bigley; but that is no excuse for Liverpool’s failure to acknowledge, even to this day, the part played in the disaster by drunken fans at the back of the crowd who mindlessly tried to fight their way into the ground that Saturday afternoon. The police became a convenient scapegoat, and the Sun newspaper a whipping-boy for daring, albeit in a tasteless fashion, to hint at the wider causes of the incident. |
Well, that's a poisonous load of tripe! Unreal.
Thanks for that, traininvain. never knew about that article. | |
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| Hillsborough on 14:37 - Apr 26 with 2287 views | MrSheen |
| Hillsborough on 14:19 - Apr 26 by traininvain |
Let’s not forget the words of London’s Mayor, from as recently as 2004:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2004/10/bigleys-fate/
Liverpool is a handsome city with a tribal sense of community. A combination of economic misfortune – its docks were, fundamentally, on the wrong side of England when Britain entered what is now the European Union – and an excessive predilection for welfarism have created a peculiar, and deeply unattractive, psyche among many Liverpudlians. They see themselves whenever possible as victims, and resent their victim status; yet at the same time they wallow in it. Part of this flawed psychological state is that they cannot accept that they might have made any contribution to their misfortunes, but seek rather to blame someone else for it, thereby deepening their sense of shared tribal grievance against the rest of society. The deaths of more than 50 Liverpool football supporters at Hillsborough in 1989 was undeniably a greater tragedy than the single death, however horrible, of Mr Bigley; but that is no excuse for Liverpool’s failure to acknowledge, even to this day, the part played in the disaster by drunken fans at the back of the crowd who mindlessly tried to fight their way into the ground that Saturday afternoon. The police became a convenient scapegoat, and the Sun newspaper a whipping-boy for daring, albeit in a tasteless fashion, to hint at the wider causes of the incident. |
Written by Simon Heffer, not Boris Johnson. Johnson was the editor of the Spectator. |  | | |
| Hillsborough on 14:37 - Apr 26 with 2282 views | Hunterhoop |
| Hillsborough on 14:19 - Apr 26 by traininvain |
Let’s not forget the words of London’s Mayor, from as recently as 2004:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2004/10/bigleys-fate/
Liverpool is a handsome city with a tribal sense of community. A combination of economic misfortune – its docks were, fundamentally, on the wrong side of England when Britain entered what is now the European Union – and an excessive predilection for welfarism have created a peculiar, and deeply unattractive, psyche among many Liverpudlians. They see themselves whenever possible as victims, and resent their victim status; yet at the same time they wallow in it. Part of this flawed psychological state is that they cannot accept that they might have made any contribution to their misfortunes, but seek rather to blame someone else for it, thereby deepening their sense of shared tribal grievance against the rest of society. The deaths of more than 50 Liverpool football supporters at Hillsborough in 1989 was undeniably a greater tragedy than the single death, however horrible, of Mr Bigley; but that is no excuse for Liverpool’s failure to acknowledge, even to this day, the part played in the disaster by drunken fans at the back of the crowd who mindlessly tried to fight their way into the ground that Saturday afternoon. The police became a convenient scapegoat, and the Sun newspaper a whipping-boy for daring, albeit in a tasteless fashion, to hint at the wider causes of the incident. |
Good point.
If he has any decency, he really should apologise for this comment in light of today's findings. But I find it hard to believe that he will or anyone else, who was or is part of the establishment, will. |  | | |
| Hillsborough on 14:47 - Apr 26 with 2253 views | Antti_Heinola |
A pertinent part of the findings:
Question 7: behaviour of the supporters
Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
Jury’s answer: No.
If your answer to the question above is “no”, then was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which which may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
Jury’s answer: No. |  |
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| Hillsborough on 14:53 - Apr 26 with 2234 views | simmo |
| Hillsborough on 14:47 - Apr 26 by Antti_Heinola |
A pertinent part of the findings:
Question 7: behaviour of the supporters
Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
Jury’s answer: No.
If your answer to the question above is “no”, then was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which which may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
Jury’s answer: No. |
This is particularly unanimous as my barrister friend explained — ‘this is one of only two verdicts at inquests requiring the criminal standard of proof (i.e. jury has to be sure) rather than the civil one (which relies on a balance of probabilities)’ | |
| ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead |
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| Hillsborough on 14:54 - Apr 26 with 2233 views | LongsufferingR |
Watching the BBC live coverage of the day itself, it's unbelievable how quickly Duckenfield got the lie circulated to cover up his own mismanagement and incompetence. Takes another 15-20 minutes for Jimmy Hill and Des Lynam to get closer to the truth, but by that time the lies and insinuations are well progressed.
Disgraceful if nobody gets charged, but won't be surprising. |  | | |
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