Forum | Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? by 2Thomas2Bowles

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Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? 13:46 - Jan 17 with 8369 views

Hows it looking from your side.

	When willl this CV nightmare end
Poll:	What will the result of the GE be

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:31 - Jan 17 with 2102 views

robith

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:22 - Jan 17 by Toast_R

You can vote agains the Tories, they can be removed from power by democratic election. Brussels on the other hand...

All this anti immigration bile, it's absolute moronic talk and just thick ammunition to throw against anyone who voted differently to your average re-moaner. Immigration works and always has done, the only difference being is that now the UK can have immigration under a controlled process just like any other developed country outside the EU operates, Australia, Canada for example, I don't hear anyone labelling them a xenophobic racists. We have the right to decide who we need and who we don't. Surely that's sensible? 300k plus a year increase in population, how can that possibly continue and not be a problem?

[Post edited 17 Jan 2017 15:30]

The point on Australia is a joke right? Australia are routinely denounced for the barbaric way they treat immigrants at their Manus and Nauru island detention centres

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:32 - Jan 17 with 2094 views

Mytch_QPR

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:23 - Jan 17 by robith
Imagine if Remain won, and the next day Cameron came out and went "Bonza, we're joining the Euro and Shengen"

I can't stand those new fivers.

	"Thank you for supporting Queens Park Rangers Steep Staircase"... and I thought I'd signed up for a rollercoaster.
Poll:	Next temporary manager (the wheel of misfortune) - as requested by 18 Stone

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:33 - Jan 17 with 2082 views

easthertsr

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:18 - Jan 17 by stevec

I'd say DWQPR just about covers it .

This chipping away at individual liberties you mention is a fantasy, where exactly? Not what you think might happen but is actually happening?

As for Public Services, you have a point, but surely a thriving economy is the thing most likely to put that right?

Out of interest, you could solve the NHS immediate problem pretty much straight off if we withdrew the 0.7% foreign aid pledge and put that into Social Care. How do you stand on that one?

Or we could scrap Trident!How do you stand on that one?

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:33 - Jan 17 with 2077 views

robith

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:32 - Jan 17 by Mytch_QPR
I can't stand those new fivers.

A shop gave me a new Scottish fiver the other day. That was great banter. Thank god for automated tills, only way I could get rid of it

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:35 - Jan 17 with 2068 views

stevec

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 13:58 - Jan 17 by Antti_Heinola
I don't remember anyone voting to leave the single market - even many brexiteers considered that 'insanity'. Absolute cluster. Thanks Cameron, lightweight dickhead.

And I thought the Remoaners were meant to be the intellectuals.

Vote Leave was about controlling our own borders, if you want to control your own borders the EU say you can't be part of the single market. Therefore we can't be in the single market.

How much more simple do you want it?

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:36 - Jan 17 with 2056 views

Mytch_QPR

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:33 - Jan 17 by robith
A shop gave me a new Scottish fiver the other day. That was great banter. Thank god for automated tills, only way I could get rid of it

If the English / Welsh note has tallow in it, what's in the Scottish one? - I reckon Irn Bru or deep-fried Mars bar.

	"Thank you for supporting Queens Park Rangers Steep Staircase"... and I thought I'd signed up for a rollercoaster.
Poll:	Next temporary manager (the wheel of misfortune) - as requested by 18 Stone

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:37 - Jan 17 with 2052 views

robith

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:35 - Jan 17 by stevec
And I thought the Remoaners were meant to be the intellectuals. Vote Leave was about controlling our own borders, if you want to control your own borders the EU say you can't be part of the single market. Therefore we can't be in the single market. How much more simple do you want it?

We could ask leading Leave campaigner Daniel Hannan

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:39 - Jan 17 with 2025 views

2Thomas2Bowles

You only have to look over to Euroland so see the fear and paralyzation since the vote to leave, they are sh*ting themselves, don't know if to scratch their head or arse, puffing up their feathers in their anger at the UK but no idea what to do next.

	When willl this CV nightmare end
Poll:	What will the result of the GE be

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:41 - Jan 17 with 2012 views

Toast_R

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:31 - Jan 17 by robith
The point on Australia is a joke right? Australia are routinely denounced for the barbaric way they treat immigrants at their Manus and Nauru island detention centres

You get what I mean, stop being so pedantic.

The fact is you wouldn't label an Australian racist because their government has a strict policy on who can go and live there, if the person does not match their criteria, they don't get access. Is that xenophobic or racist?

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:43 - Jan 17 with 1984 views

Mytch_QPR

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:35 - Jan 17 by stevec
And I thought the Remoaners were meant to be the intellectuals. Vote Leave was about controlling our own borders, if you want to control your own borders the EU say you can't be part of the single market. Therefore we can't be in the single market. How much more simple do you want it?

I don't make you wrong, but the point is that a lot of Leave voters thought they could have it all - full border control and all the benefits of single market membership.

As I said, we're rewinding all the old issues again (and no doubt it won't be the last time), but it comes back to the sad fact we had a referendum where nobody really knew what they were voting for. The more you think about this the more insane it becomes.

I'm through posting on this - it goes around and around like water round a drain.

	"Thank you for supporting Queens Park Rangers Steep Staircase"... and I thought I'd signed up for a rollercoaster.
Poll:	Next temporary manager (the wheel of misfortune) - as requested by 18 Stone

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:46 - Jan 17 with 1962 views

stevec

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:37 - Jan 17 by robith
We could ask leading Leave campaigner Daniel Hannan

Yes, and some people lie, some on both sides of the argument.

First, I doubt anyone knows or cares who Darryl Hannah is, or his advice.
Second, if you want the facts then all you had to do was read up on it. This wasn't a Presidential race, all the facts of what would happen we're out there, you just needed to do your homework.

All this 'he said, she said' is utter bllocks.

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:47 - Jan 17 with 1950 views

Hooped_Pullie

May looks like 'peace in our time' Neville Chamberlain today. Although history will be kinder to him.

How in the name of sanity a British Prime Minister could look at an advisory referendum, see a margin of decision of less than 2% in an unexpectedly high turnout, and opt for a course of action which risks finishing this country as a decent place to live is, I'm afraid, totally beyond me.

And for what ? To make the rich richer, and the poor even poorer. Control immigration ? Never understood it, except on pure racial grounds (which people were falling over themselves to say it wasn't). Italy or Spain, I can understand how there'd be the ingredients there for anti-immigrant sentiment - unemployment is going through the roof in both those countries. But us, with an ageing indigenous population, total dependence on people of working age coming to live here, and a national in-work figure of around 96% - if not prejudice and ignorance, then what ?

Now we end up as a tax haven, more so than before. No one factors in the facts about international non-EU trade : that different time zones, longer physical distances, language and logistics all mean that it will be a long, permanently miserable slog to get business done. And that's allowing for the internet.

As regards worker's rights, trading & product standards, overall human rights issues : sure, they'll all stay in the short to medium term. But anyone who thinks they won't be dismantled in the fullness of time, frankly doesn't know what they're talking about.

I'll stop now, though I could go on and on : suffice to say, in years to come, the Brexit vote will be regarded by all but the jackbooted diehards as having had a more detrimental effect on the UK than either of the 20th centuries World Wars. Blair and Bush's Iraq adventure will look like a model of high popularity compared to the public ratings Brexit will 'enjoy', and people will look wistfully at Project Fear and wish it had only been as bad as that.

Mic dropped...

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:51 - Jan 17 with 1907 views

pastieR

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:18 - Jan 17 by stevec

individual liberties?
I guess you haven't heard of this

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/11/29/investigatory-powers-bill-does-

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:54 - Jan 17 with 1893 views

robith

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:41 - Jan 17 by Toast_R
You get what I mean, stop being so pedantic. The fact is you wouldn't label an Australian racist because their government has a strict policy on who can go and live there, if the person does not match their criteria, they don't get access. Is that xenophobic or racist?

Well, it depends on the Australian. I know many who campaign against its government policies. I know a couple who love them because it, in essence, is aimed at keeping the country white - Australia's immigration policy has been tranche in racism since the day dot. So people who support it, I would tbh.

This is what I don't get about Leave. Immigration is constantly the discussion point. But mention this and suddenly it all becomes about sovereignty and rights and why is the other side always bringing up immigration.

I have also on this site, never seen anyone say anyone who opposes immigration is automatically racist. In fact, I've never seen that in my life, and I hang out with some funky cats. I've seen people called up on questionable ideas, but never blanket. YET, it is literally all I hear on here, and elsewhere? These mythical left wing boogey men, in a country that has a predominantly right wing media and has had at a push two legitimately left wing governments ever.

Which leads on to my final point as I'm breaking my own personal rules about posting about politics on here - you won. This is how democracy works. You get to do the thing you wanted to do, and the other side gets to criticise you unrelentingly for it. It's kind of a quid pro quo.

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:55 - Jan 17 with 1887 views

londonscottish

Well I was told I was being made redundant on Wednesday.

I suppose three new manufacturing jobs will have sprung up in response in Stoke?

No?

Poll:

Do you love or hate the new Marmite ad?

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:57 - Jan 17 with 1822 views

paulparker

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:47 - Jan 17 by Hooped_Pullie

the Brexit vote will be regarded by all but the jackbooted diehards

is that the 17.5 million that voted out then ? hardly jackbooted Nazi diehards , but you carry on with your mud slinging & generalisations

And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles Brian Moore

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:58 - Jan 17 with 1820 views

robith

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:46 - Jan 17 by stevec
Yes, and some people lie, some on both sides of the argument. First, I doubt anyone knows or cares who Darryl Hannah is, or his advice. Second, if you want the facts then all you had to do was read up on it. This wasn't a Presidential race, all the facts of what would happen we're out there, you just needed to do your homework. All this 'he said, she said' is utter bllocks.

I presume you give such leeway to the forecasts of the rema....oh I can't believe I even bothered replying to you in the first place

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 16:01 - Jan 17 with 1807 views

robith

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:57 - Jan 17 by paulparker
the Brexit vote will be regarded by all but the jackbooted diehards is that the 17.5 million that voted out then ? hardly jackbooted Nazi diehards , but you carry on with your mud slinging & generalisations

You managed to read that whole post and all you took out of it was that line, which you have ignored even the tense in which it was written. Will be, will be - future tense. In hindsight i.e people do things they later regret. Dear god, if you're going to criticise someone you can do them the service of reading what they wrote properly

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 16:06 - Jan 17 with 1776 views

FDC

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:57 - Jan 17 by paulparker
the Brexit vote will be regarded by all but the jackbooted diehards is that the 17.5 million that voted out then ? hardly jackbooted Nazi diehards , but you carry on with your mud slinging & generalisations

I believe the point Hooped Pullie is making is that subsequent polling shows that the vast majority of those that voted Leave didn't intend or expect Brexit to lead to where it's leading to.

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 16:07 - Jan 17 with 1770 views

Brightonhoop

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 15:05 - Jan 17 by DWQPR

Jim, having spent much time in Spain myself, talking to many locals during the years of the financial crisis and the extra-ordinary slow recovery since then, a lot are very disenchanted with the EU, the Euro and the fact that their failure to come out of recession sooner has been severely restricted by an economic policy largely dictated by Berlin. Many Spanish would love to see the return of the peseta and envy the UK for retaining sterling and by such our fiscal independence, which has allowed us to get back on a more even keel and economic growth that much sooner. Ironically it is the British success story, when compared to the rest of the EU which has caused the main issue for the majority of leavers, of immigration, to be so high. UK is a nation that was creating jobs and wealth at a time when the rest of Europe, including Germany was failing, otherwise wouldn't you think that your average Pole would have sought better employment in Germany instead, given its geographical position to Poland, the same with Hungarians, Czechs etc.

And maybe Spain wouldn't have been in such a mess had they got a decent tax system that collected money efficiently. It took SEVEN years for the local Junta to send me a council tax demand for my property in Arboleas, Seven bloody years! And then that was only backdated for four years. And the cost of council tax? 250 euros a year. And what does the council do with this money, put in pavements in rural areas which nobody uses and bloody multi-coloured benches on these pavements that nobody sits on. Not only this but look at the black market in Spain, it has been out of control for years, bars, restaurants, small shops, deal a lot in cash and most of that goes missing from the books, buying a property, the declared price and the purchase price and the 'black money' paid in cash to the vendor in between to avoid purchase taxes was rife only a few years back. And I suspect the same in Italy, definitely in Greece and probably in Portugal, all who would now be better outside of the Euro and probably outside of the EU.

When the referendum happened I was a remainer, probably like Corbyn a '70% remainer', but to be honest if the vote were to happen again tomorrow, based on what I have seen in the last six months and read, and learned I would now be a '90% leaver', based on the Xenophobic stance towards the UK by leaders such as Hollande, now conspicuous by his absence of the French presedential ballot papers, the dictatorial stance towards the Irish government relating to their tax affairs with big business and the fact that countries like Italy have yet to implode, or at least their banking system, whereby 40% of loans are currently not serviced, by which I mean, no payments of interest or capital are being made. If anywhere is a basketcase then it is the Eurozone. The experiment is heading towards the buffers at high speed, the Euro will never work and after the series of national elections during the year, starting with the Dutch you will start to see confidence in the Euro wane.

And after all of their posturing, lets not forget, Europe needs a healthy UK. They are about to lose around £180million a week from their budget, which will need to be made up by the other member states so they will continue to need to trade with the UK in the best terms possible, especially given that they are net exporters to us.

And finally, forget about whether May is an elected PM or not, people in the UK, unlike the US vote for a party and not a leader, sure their decision might be influenced by who is leading, certainly this seems to be the case with that nomark Corbyn currently, but she is not the first person to take the office of PM in this country mid-term, in my lifetime she would be the fourth, after Callaghan, Major and Brown so it is not unprecedented and I didn't hear too many protests from Labour supporters when Callaghan and Brown took office. Strange.

And as far as NI is concerned, a new election, sure, the result? The same, no doubt, political and sectarian divides will see to that. Within a few months it will be business as usual at Stalmont. Scotland? Well, yeah, personally I think now that if there was a referendum in England about whether we would jettison Scotland then it would be a 'Yes'. Fishwoman can threaten all she likes, and she has to in the face of her own supporters, but the reality is that Scotland will end up in a mess, the economy is too reliant on oil and only a couple of weeks ago Len McClusky was lobbying the government to give the oil industry further subsidies to safeguard jobs in places like Aberdeen. The oil price is at a level now that US fracking is becoming profitable, it is making up for what the Saudis are pumping out of the ground, but it would still be a loss for the cost of getting oil out of the north sea, and as the world starts to wean itself of the black stuff in favour or more renewables then the industry will become even less attractive. And if Scotland did leave, then many larger corporations currently based their will migrate, Standard Life has previously confirmed this. And if they did become independent where would Scotland go? The EU would never accept them, as you know Spain would give them the two fingers straight away. Would they adopt the 'Norwegian model', probably cost them far more than they could afford. So I think you will find, that Scotland will remain part of the UK.

And inflation in the UK, yep, its coming back, mainly commodity driven, oil price increases in the last year and obvious the cost of imports increasing, but it will be temporary, once through it gets out the system in 12 months and inflation will fall again, but even the most pessimist of analysts cannot see inflation beyond 3% at its peak. And if, which is quite possible the Euro starts to reduce in value if France elects Le Pen then inflation will disappear that much quicker. So I think that I would rather be a UK citizen at this moment than one in Euroland.

Staggering David, I think we view things like chalk and cheese, unbelievably naive.

You cannot begin to compare Spain and UK, totally different economic systems, costs of living and life expectations. One reason I love it here, mostly, is there outlook. How much do I need? Not alot to be happy, and it costs so much less to live here. The Spanish outlook on Brexit and the prospect of Brits having to leave has been a shrug of the shoulders and statements like 'we did just fine before the Brits came.' Tax evasion and the black market here, same as Italy and Greece, is an art form. And Spain, like Ireland have done very well out of the EU handouts, unlike the UK, so totally incomparable.

On NI it's back on a knife edge, it's why McGuiness dissolved Parliament, and it's Stormont. There is a real risk IRA will resume violence and the pressure to release the North to the Republic will grow whilst May seeks to keep borders open there against the express rules of the EU, which Ireland will remain.

On Scotland, they cannot rely on London and will look to Independence so they can gain from EU grants to stave off collapse with the oil rice so low. Interesting you mention Norway. They banked there North Sea Oils starting in 1981 and have a National Capital fund now worth £855 Billion. UK has fck all left and nothing to show for North Sea Oil. The idea UK is somehow superior to others is deluded in the extreme. Spain may well opposed Scotland leaving but they will leave anyway, and be welcomed by the rest of Europe. Spain wont stop the Catalans Independence either. The last thing the EU needs another Spanish Civil War which is also likely if Madrid remains intransigent. Brussels will lean on them heavily when that time comes to allow Catalan to break away.

Pound went below 1 Euro last night in anticipation of May's speach, which she didn't even have the backbone to hold in Parliament where she could be scrutinised, because she has not got a scooby doo what she is doing. She backed Remain 7 months ago. She's even saying today contributions to the EU can continue post Brexit. The whole world is betting against the pound. That alone should ring alarm bells.

Inflation is far from just oil driven the collapsing pound is the greatest offender and that is not going to recover in 12 months. Maybe a decade. Maybe longer. UK has a staggering level of debt, reaching unserviceable levels, an ageing population and total over dependence on a service economy. We do 3 times trade with Sweden as Brazil, one of many many stats that confirm nobody buys British anymore because Britain makes next to nothing and lost those skills in previous generations. Where is this long queue of countries wanting to Trade with the UK? UK alone cannot compete with the likes of China and India, not a chance. Inflation is based on the falling pound, everything costs more to import, and rising oil costs, everything costs more to distribute.

The only area I agree on is the state of the Euro, and that's down to Brussels stupidity of intense convergence over the last two decades and setting out currency in disparate arts of Europe that would never agree to one Parliament for the whole of Europe and one Army, which is what is required to compete with the US. It's never going to happen and has been folly at best.

UK isolating itself in this world though is lunacy and the economic wreckage that will follow a hard Brexit is as close to insanity as parliament and the British can get. It's a basket case.

[Post edited 17 Jan 2017 16:16]

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 16:08 - Jan 17 with 1765 views

Hooped_Pullie

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 16:01 - Jan 17 by robith
You managed to read that whole post and all you took out of it was that line, which you have ignored even the tense in which it was written. Will be, will be - future tense. In hindsight i.e people do things they later regret. Dear god, if you're going to criticise someone you can do them the service of reading what they wrote properly

Thanks, Robith, for saving me the trouble of responding - couldn't have put it better.

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 16:13 - Jan 17 with 1726 views

paulparker

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 16:01 - Jan 17 by robith
You managed to read that whole post and all you took out of it was that line, which you have ignored even the tense in which it was written. Will be, will be - future tense. In hindsight i.e people do things they later regret. Dear god, if you're going to criticise someone you can do them the service of reading what they wrote properly

Dear god, if you're going to criticise someone you can do them the service of reading what they wrote properly

That's Quality coming from you

And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles Brian Moore

-3

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 16:15 - Jan 17 with 1707 views

rsonist

"We're free, we can do what we wanna do and we wanna have a good time. "

http://speri.dept.shef.ac.uk/2017/01/16/brexit-and-free-trade-fallacies-part-two

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 16:22 - Jan 17 with 1665 views

MrSheen

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 16:07 - Jan 17 by Brightonhoop

[Post edited 17 Jan 2017 16:16]

The pound below 1 Euro? You want to shop around. E1.134 the overnight low, E1.1565 at present, up 1.75% today, for what that's worth.

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 16:23 - Jan 17 with 1662 views

Hooped_Pullie

Hard Brexit ? Out of Single Market, Tax Haven ? on 16:15 - Jan 17 by rsonist
"We're free, we can do what we wanna do and we wanna have a good time. " http://speri.dept.shef.ac.uk/2017/01/16/brexit-and-free-trade-fallacies-part-two

Great article.

Looks like this guy writes some interesting stuff.

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