| Stoke City Chairman 23:46 - Feb 23 with 4009 views | GloryHunter |
Peter Coates - on Question Time. I love this bloke. He's sensible, and he's a socialist. Changed my view of Stoke City. |  | | |  |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:04 - Feb 24 with 1370 views | Clive_Anderson |
"genuine concerns about how they will harvest without foreign labour."
Well yes immigration has driven down wages especially unskilled, so people have to live in slave like conditions to do things like working on farms. It's no surprise that the locals don't want to do it, since it's not actually enough money to live on.
People used to be able to own a house and have a decent lifestyle working manual labour, now you have to live 4 to a room in portacabins earning practically nothing. I don't see how this is a good thing. |  | | |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:11 - Feb 24 with 1338 views | BlackCrowe |
Your assuming that anyone that questions his socialist values whilst earning millions as being a Kipper and voting for Brexit. I am neither. A gentle nudge right of centre maybe, so you can hang me for that. |  |
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| Stoke City Chairman on 15:12 - Feb 24 with 1335 views | nadera78 |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:04 - Feb 24 by Clive_Anderson |
"genuine concerns about how they will harvest without foreign labour."
Well yes immigration has driven down wages especially unskilled, so people have to live in slave like conditions to do things like working on farms. It's no surprise that the locals don't want to do it, since it's not actually enough money to live on.
People used to be able to own a house and have a decent lifestyle working manual labour, now you have to live 4 to a room in portacabins earning practically nothing. I don't see how this is a good thing. |
If you ever tried to do some reading you'd very quickly learn that the single biggest reason for falling incomes is not immigration but automation. But if you want to carry on blaming immigrants then go ahead. | | | |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:14 - Feb 24 with 1331 views | nadera78 |
| Stoke City Chairman on 10:57 - Feb 24 by Hayesender |
Easy to be a socialist when you have countless millions £££ in the bank |
He started off with nothing and built two successful businesses. | | | |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:21 - Feb 24 with 1308 views | Konk |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:04 - Feb 24 by Clive_Anderson |
"genuine concerns about how they will harvest without foreign labour."
Well yes immigration has driven down wages especially unskilled, so people have to live in slave like conditions to do things like working on farms. It's no surprise that the locals don't want to do it, since it's not actually enough money to live on.
People used to be able to own a house and have a decent lifestyle working manual labour, now you have to live 4 to a room in portacabins earning practically nothing. I don't see how this is a good thing. |
How much do you think someone should be paid for picking veg in Lincs? Should this be a full-time role or seasonal work? How much do EU workers currently earn doing this work? As I've said before, my wife works in Food manufacturing for a company that employ several hundred people in Park Royal: they pay over the London Living wage, pay bonuses (unheard of), pensions, health care package etc for all of their factory staff, there's no weekend or evening work as the owner wants people to be able to enjoy time with their families - it's a brilliant company in terms of staff welfare - and they have literally no British born people amongst their shop floor staff despite any vacancies being advertised in N/NW London. It was the same at her last place in Bow. Everyone is from Eastern Europe, Sri Lanka, India or Africa.
I remember when you could live in 3 bedroom house in a modest area of London, with one modest income; you can't any more because it costs £44bn to buy a house in Finsbury Park. I also remember when you could live comfortably in a council house/flat on a modest salary, but someone thought it would be a good idea to sell them off and now we often house families in the same properties, whilst paying the private landlords that own them an absolute fortune. That's the market for you. |  |
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| Stoke City Chairman on 15:22 - Feb 24 with 1297 views | Clive_Anderson |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:12 - Feb 24 by nadera78 |
If you ever tried to do some reading you'd very quickly learn that the single biggest reason for falling incomes is not immigration but automation. But if you want to carry on blaming immigrants then go ahead. |
You don't think that an increase in labour willing to do work for less money has an effect on wages?
I can't think how you could possibly come to that conclusion. Especially in this particular example where farmers are warning that there are no longer enough people willing to work for such low wages due to a decrease in the labour supply.
Your snide comments show that you aren't able to debate rationally so I don't expect a reasoned response. | | | |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:24 - Feb 24 with 1275 views | W7Ranger |
I found him a bit dithery and pessimistic, without anything to back up why the future will be so bleak other than say "you mark my words"! |  | | |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:30 - Feb 24 with 1248 views | Clive_Anderson |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:21 - Feb 24 by Konk |
How much do you think someone should be paid for picking veg in Lincs? Should this be a full-time role or seasonal work? How much do EU workers currently earn doing this work? As I've said before, my wife works in Food manufacturing for a company that employ several hundred people in Park Royal: they pay over the London Living wage, pay bonuses (unheard of), pensions, health care package etc for all of their factory staff, there's no weekend or evening work as the owner wants people to be able to enjoy time with their families - it's a brilliant company in terms of staff welfare - and they have literally no British born people amongst their shop floor staff despite any vacancies being advertised in N/NW London. It was the same at her last place in Bow. Everyone is from Eastern Europe, Sri Lanka, India or Africa.
I remember when you could live in 3 bedroom house in a modest area of London, with one modest income; you can't any more because it costs £44bn to buy a house in Finsbury Park. I also remember when you could live comfortably in a council house/flat on a modest salary, but someone thought it would be a good idea to sell them off and now we often house families in the same properties, whilst paying the private landlords that own them an absolute fortune. That's the market for you. |
Well that sounds great, apart from the fact that it's impossible to live in London on those wages. Yes house prices are insane, but I think we'll completely disagree on the causes of that, mainly the ludicrous planning laws meaning we've built less houses than we need for several decades.
"How much do you think someone should be paid for picking veg in Lincs?"
I think a good rule of thumb is enough that people living in the area are prepared to work for the salary offered. If the wages are too low then they will need to rise until they can get people to apply for the jobs. I mean can we agree there is a problem somewhere along the line if no one wants the work and we need to rely on foreign labour?
Switzerland has taken a different approach to driving down wages with immigration and people doing manual jobs get paid very well for what they do. | | | |
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| Stoke City Chairman on 15:33 - Feb 24 with 1234 views | Konk |
Maybe if consumers were prepared to pay a realistic price for food, milk etc, Supermarkets wouldn't engage in shafting their suppliers, which in turn would see workers paid a bit more for their graft? A lot of small scale producers are barely making ends meet, so until they get a fairer deal from the supermarkets/consumers, they'll always be reliant on people willing to work long hours doing hard work for sh it money. | |
| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| Stoke City Chairman on 15:36 - Feb 24 with 1221 views | nadera78 |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:22 - Feb 24 by Clive_Anderson |
You don't think that an increase in labour willing to do work for less money has an effect on wages?
I can't think how you could possibly come to that conclusion. Especially in this particular example where farmers are warning that there are no longer enough people willing to work for such low wages due to a decrease in the labour supply.
Your snide comments show that you aren't able to debate rationally so I don't expect a reasoned response. |
Everything you've said there is supposition. There has been a lot of research into this topic, and the results are there if you want to go find them and read up on it - the main cause of falling wages is automation. | | | |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:40 - Feb 24 with 1204 views | Brightonhoop |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:11 - Feb 24 by BlackCrowe |
Your assuming that anyone that questions his socialist values whilst earning millions as being a Kipper and voting for Brexit. I am neither. A gentle nudge right of centre maybe, so you can hang me for that. |
You're assuming assumption is wrong. Where have I said you are a Kipper? It was a general referrence to the Kippers, not aimed at anyone personally, and a genuine question of interest to those that are Kippers. |  | | |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:48 - Feb 24 with 1184 views | Clive_Anderson |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:36 - Feb 24 by nadera78 |
Everything you've said there is supposition. There has been a lot of research into this topic, and the results are there if you want to go find them and read up on it - the main cause of falling wages is automation. |
Well why not try and explain why it is all due to automation and nothing to do with increased labour in the farms example above. Vaguely alluding to authority that you are unable to personally articulate or apply to the current argument is completely worthless.
By the way I'm not saying that automation won't have a massive effect as well, especially in the next few decades. But to say an increase in cheap labour doesn't affect wages because you once read something isn't the most convincing argument. | | | |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:50 - Feb 24 with 1176 views | Toast_R |
Didn't like his attitude to be honest, a lot of rumbling on with his own opinions without many facts to back up what he was saying. Isabel Oakeshott I felt was far more astute on that panel.
I guess it all depends on what you want to hear really. Dare I say it I liked what I heard from Douglas Carswell who I thought spoke well and was quite the realist even about his own parties short comings. |  | | |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:51 - Feb 24 with 1170 views | Clive_Anderson |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:33 - Feb 24 by Konk |
Maybe if consumers were prepared to pay a realistic price for food, milk etc, Supermarkets wouldn't engage in shafting their suppliers, which in turn would see workers paid a bit more for their graft? A lot of small scale producers are barely making ends meet, so until they get a fairer deal from the supermarkets/consumers, they'll always be reliant on people willing to work long hours doing hard work for sh it money. |
Well exactly, but one of the reasons they can get away with it because of cheap labour.
In Switzerland groceries cost a fcking fortune, but overall the standard of living is much higher. Here we drive wages in the ground and wonder why the poor and now even people in the middle are so screwed. | | | |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:52 - Feb 24 with 1163 views | Konk |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:30 - Feb 24 by Clive_Anderson |
Well that sounds great, apart from the fact that it's impossible to live in London on those wages. Yes house prices are insane, but I think we'll completely disagree on the causes of that, mainly the ludicrous planning laws meaning we've built less houses than we need for several decades.
"How much do you think someone should be paid for picking veg in Lincs?"
I think a good rule of thumb is enough that people living in the area are prepared to work for the salary offered. If the wages are too low then they will need to rise until they can get people to apply for the jobs. I mean can we agree there is a problem somewhere along the line if no one wants the work and we need to rely on foreign labour?
Switzerland has taken a different approach to driving down wages with immigration and people doing manual jobs get paid very well for what they do. |
Well, It’s clearly not impossible because they have several hundred people working there and living in London. Probably not living an especially luxurious life, but a number of their (well paid) senior management team are immigrants who have started off on the shop floor and worked their way up, and that seems to be the approach. For whatever reason, even though you don’t need any qualifications to land that work, and even though they’re surrounded by areas of high youth unemployment, they just can’t attract local, British-born staff for the shop floor (and most of their skilled technical staff are from overseas as Britain doesn’t produce enough people with their skills)
I’d agree that there’s obviously a problem if you can’t attract local workers without having to rely on overseas labour, but I genuinely think that in some regions and in some industries, people would rather not work than do back-breaking work in all weathers, only to take home £40 more than if they were on benefits. A huge number of people in farming are really struggling and inflationary pressure on wages won’t be met by supermarkets or consumers. I have had a million conversations over the years with my wife, her colleagues and a mates Dad who manages nurseries in Herts, and producers are relentlessly squeezed and bullied by the supermarkets until their margins are wafer thin; or in the case of many dairy farmers, they’re actually running at a loss. With the devaluation of Sterling, producers are going to the supermarkets telling them that costs are rising 10-25% and asking that the supermarkets shoulder some of the burden, and in most cases, they’re being told to suck it up. So, in those circumstances, it’s difficult to see how wages in agriculture and food processing will increase without a willingness from retailers and consumers to partially absorb some of the rising costs. | |
| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| Stoke City Chairman on 16:04 - Feb 24 with 1108 views | Brightonhoop |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:22 - Feb 24 by Clive_Anderson |
You don't think that an increase in labour willing to do work for less money has an effect on wages?
I can't think how you could possibly come to that conclusion. Especially in this particular example where farmers are warning that there are no longer enough people willing to work for such low wages due to a decrease in the labour supply.
Your snide comments show that you aren't able to debate rationally so I don't expect a reasoned response. |
So it's a question of living, viable wages and as someone else suggested, automation, which is a problem and has been coming since the 70's, now it's gathering pace. Veg like potatoes are harvested by machine, but soft fruits, until affordable technology catches up, will need to be picked by hand, and Brits wont do it.
What is concerning I think, is that the press have succesfully done Governments bidding in turning people against each other blaming immigrants for the fall in living standards, but at the same time now costs will rise because the labour will cost more. Plus inflation from the fall in the pound. I dont think May knows what she is doing. Nor knows how to get out of a future further econmic down turn which looks increasingly likely.
You're right, same as any demand economy, wages for those jobs will have to increase until they can recruit a full labour force. But they may not be able to pass on the additional costs to supermarkets.
It's all a bit of a mess but I think we are finally seeing the death throes of Globalism which has been an unmittigated disaster for all but those at the very top.
Have a look at Eissenhowers idea of Corporate Tax rates of 90%.He was absolutely right,the investments companies made in staff, development all sorts, rather than pay 90% and coming into the 60% rate did more for social engenering in the US at that time than any socialist Government could have dreamed of. Something major has to change.
Interesting discussion so far. [Post edited 24 Feb 2017 16:04]
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| Stoke City Chairman on 16:09 - Feb 24 with 1102 views | robith |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:22 - Feb 24 by Clive_Anderson |
You don't think that an increase in labour willing to do work for less money has an effect on wages?
I can't think how you could possibly come to that conclusion. Especially in this particular example where farmers are warning that there are no longer enough people willing to work for such low wages due to a decrease in the labour supply.
Your snide comments show that you aren't able to debate rationally so I don't expect a reasoned response. |
The biggest shaper of wages is legislation. Every time a government has raised the minimum wage the only effect if to raise up those at the bottom of the wage scale. But anyone who proposes it is anti-business - even Osbourne's living wage was short of what the actual living wage is, so you end up with race to the bottom wages.
Migration only has an effect on wages if you let it.
EDIT: Also I've just seen your last line lololololololololololol
Oh boy, happy Friday everyone, I think I'll take the rest of the afternoon off. [Post edited 24 Feb 2017 16:09]
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| Stoke City Chairman on 16:22 - Feb 24 with 1084 views | Clive_Anderson |
"Well, It’s clearly not impossible because they have several hundred people working there and living in London."
But it's one thing to live four to a room with 12 in a house for a couple of years to save money and go back home and buy a house, it's another to do it forever.
"but I genuinely think that in some regions and in some industries, people would rather not work than do back-breaking work in all weathers, only to take home £40 more than if they were on benefits"
Well absolutely, but can you blame them? The whole benefits and housing system is broken causing all sorts of disincentives. I think it is a much better idea to fix those issues than try and paper over the cracks with cheap labour from abroad.
"So, in those circumstances, it’s difficult to see how wages in agriculture and food processing will increase without a willingness from retailers and consumers to partially absorb some of the rising costs."
Agreed. Food is historically cheap at the moment, something has to give somewhere. | | | |
| Stoke City Chairman on 16:30 - Feb 24 with 1071 views | TacticalR |
| Stoke City Chairman on 16:09 - Feb 24 by robith |
The biggest shaper of wages is legislation. Every time a government has raised the minimum wage the only effect if to raise up those at the bottom of the wage scale. But anyone who proposes it is anti-business - even Osbourne's living wage was short of what the actual living wage is, so you end up with race to the bottom wages.
Migration only has an effect on wages if you let it.
EDIT: Also I've just seen your last line lololololololololololol
Oh boy, happy Friday everyone, I think I'll take the rest of the afternoon off. [Post edited 24 Feb 2017 16:09]
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The only problem with the living wage is that nobody can live on it, just as the only problem with affordable housing is that nobody can afford it. |  |
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| Stoke City Chairman on 16:36 - Feb 24 with 1064 views | Clive_Anderson |
| Stoke City Chairman on 16:04 - Feb 24 by Brightonhoop |
So it's a question of living, viable wages and as someone else suggested, automation, which is a problem and has been coming since the 70's, now it's gathering pace. Veg like potatoes are harvested by machine, but soft fruits, until affordable technology catches up, will need to be picked by hand, and Brits wont do it.
What is concerning I think, is that the press have succesfully done Governments bidding in turning people against each other blaming immigrants for the fall in living standards, but at the same time now costs will rise because the labour will cost more. Plus inflation from the fall in the pound. I dont think May knows what she is doing. Nor knows how to get out of a future further econmic down turn which looks increasingly likely.
You're right, same as any demand economy, wages for those jobs will have to increase until they can recruit a full labour force. But they may not be able to pass on the additional costs to supermarkets.
It's all a bit of a mess but I think we are finally seeing the death throes of Globalism which has been an unmittigated disaster for all but those at the very top.
Have a look at Eissenhowers idea of Corporate Tax rates of 90%.He was absolutely right,the investments companies made in staff, development all sorts, rather than pay 90% and coming into the 60% rate did more for social engenering in the US at that time than any socialist Government could have dreamed of. Something major has to change.
Interesting discussion so far. [Post edited 24 Feb 2017 16:04]
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I think globalisation has been a disaster for the average person. I've thought for a while that immigration only really works between countries of similar wealth as otherwise you end up with one country having their wages depressed with large strain on infrastructure, whereas the other country loses a load of their workforce they desperately need.
But now I also think the same thing applies to trade. What is the point of extensive health and safety and worker conditions if you're going to outsources production to a country that doesn't bother with any of that stuff. You're going to end up with no manufacturing in the end.
The main problem with corporations is that they can pay tax in a different country to where they made their money. Same deal with shareholders. The whole idea of a corporation in a world with global capital transfers is flawed. | | | |
| Stoke City Chairman on 16:48 - Feb 24 with 1048 views | Konk |
| Stoke City Chairman on 16:22 - Feb 24 by Clive_Anderson |
"Well, It’s clearly not impossible because they have several hundred people working there and living in London."
But it's one thing to live four to a room with 12 in a house for a couple of years to save money and go back home and buy a house, it's another to do it forever.
"but I genuinely think that in some regions and in some industries, people would rather not work than do back-breaking work in all weathers, only to take home £40 more than if they were on benefits"
Well absolutely, but can you blame them? The whole benefits and housing system is broken causing all sorts of disincentives. I think it is a much better idea to fix those issues than try and paper over the cracks with cheap labour from abroad.
"So, in those circumstances, it’s difficult to see how wages in agriculture and food processing will increase without a willingness from retailers and consumers to partially absorb some of the rising costs."
Agreed. Food is historically cheap at the moment, something has to give somewhere. |
I don't blame them, but I also don't blame the farmers for paying what they can - in many cases - genuinely only afford to pay. I blame the supermarkets and consumers, who aren't prepared to pay a fair price for produce.
On the subject of living 4 to a room - Two mentalities: one that says, fu ck that for £40 extra a week, and another than says, yes this is shi t at the minute, but in five years time I could be earning 3 times what I'm earning now and life will look a lot different. I left school at 16 and worked full-time for two years for £60 a week because I knew that with fu ck-all qualifications (and because my Mum wouldn't have accepted me not working), I couldn't pick and choose. That experience set me up for moving to my current place and I earn a decent whack in a "good job", where if I wasn't as uninterested as I am in this industry, I could be earning a bundle by now. I'm not sure everyone takes the view of getting your nut down, accepting things aren't great at the beginning, but seeing where things take you. It seems to me that immigrants - whether it's Poles coming to the UK or Brits moving to New Zealand - they have a drive and determination to achieve a better life, so they're prepared to get on with things and strive despite initial hardships. | |
| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| Stoke City Chairman on 16:56 - Feb 24 with 1034 views | nadera78 |
| Stoke City Chairman on 16:36 - Feb 24 by Clive_Anderson |
I think globalisation has been a disaster for the average person. I've thought for a while that immigration only really works between countries of similar wealth as otherwise you end up with one country having their wages depressed with large strain on infrastructure, whereas the other country loses a load of their workforce they desperately need.
But now I also think the same thing applies to trade. What is the point of extensive health and safety and worker conditions if you're going to outsources production to a country that doesn't bother with any of that stuff. You're going to end up with no manufacturing in the end.
The main problem with corporations is that they can pay tax in a different country to where they made their money. Same deal with shareholders. The whole idea of a corporation in a world with global capital transfers is flawed. |
Your 1st paragraph is wrong.
One country benefits from an influx of needed labour, for example in the UK many businesses would collapse if there wasn't a workforce willing to do bloody hard graft for comparatively small wages. The other country benefits because the remittances sent back are spent locally, raising demand for goods and services and therefore employment in that country too.
Secondly, you're continuing with the false notion that immigration reduces wages, which isn't true.
Your second paragraph is true enough, but then it's the right that is obsessed with outsourcing. | | | |
| Stoke City Chairman on 17:17 - Feb 24 with 1020 views | Konk |
| Stoke City Chairman on 16:36 - Feb 24 by Clive_Anderson |
I think globalisation has been a disaster for the average person. I've thought for a while that immigration only really works between countries of similar wealth as otherwise you end up with one country having their wages depressed with large strain on infrastructure, whereas the other country loses a load of their workforce they desperately need.
But now I also think the same thing applies to trade. What is the point of extensive health and safety and worker conditions if you're going to outsources production to a country that doesn't bother with any of that stuff. You're going to end up with no manufacturing in the end.
The main problem with corporations is that they can pay tax in a different country to where they made their money. Same deal with shareholders. The whole idea of a corporation in a world with global capital transfers is flawed. |
"I think globalisation has been a disaster for the average person." - in the West or globally? An awful lot of "average" people in places such as India and China have had their lives completely transformed in a positive way by globalisation. | |
| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| Stoke City Chairman on 18:07 - Feb 24 with 967 views | Boston |
| Stoke City Chairman on 16:48 - Feb 24 by Konk |
I don't blame them, but I also don't blame the farmers for paying what they can - in many cases - genuinely only afford to pay. I blame the supermarkets and consumers, who aren't prepared to pay a fair price for produce.
On the subject of living 4 to a room - Two mentalities: one that says, fu ck that for £40 extra a week, and another than says, yes this is shi t at the minute, but in five years time I could be earning 3 times what I'm earning now and life will look a lot different. I left school at 16 and worked full-time for two years for £60 a week because I knew that with fu ck-all qualifications (and because my Mum wouldn't have accepted me not working), I couldn't pick and choose. That experience set me up for moving to my current place and I earn a decent whack in a "good job", where if I wasn't as uninterested as I am in this industry, I could be earning a bundle by now. I'm not sure everyone takes the view of getting your nut down, accepting things aren't great at the beginning, but seeing where things take you. It seems to me that immigrants - whether it's Poles coming to the UK or Brits moving to New Zealand - they have a drive and determination to achieve a better life, so they're prepared to get on with things and strive despite initial hardships. |
I didn't get where I am today.... | |
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| Stoke City Chairman on 23:47 - Feb 24 with 852 views | isawqpratwcity |
| Stoke City Chairman on 15:01 - Feb 24 by Konk |
I've got no idea what he pays his staff. Be interested to know if you've got that information to hand. Largest private employer in an area of high unemployment, though, 2,500-odd jobs - and I daresay most of those jobs could have been offshored. I've no idea what the people of Stoke think of the Coates family, but I'm sure there are a lot of families glad they've invested their money and efforts in the area either in terms of work or the football club. I don't know much about the bloke or his business, but he's invested in his (struggling) hometown at a time when there's not much else positive going on, so I reckon he's probably held in reasonably high regard locally.
By way of contrast, how many people do you think will feel even a twinge of sadness when Philip Green dies?
EDIT: Sounds like he's just not forgotten his roots to me - what a w anker:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/apr/02/stoke-city-peter-coates-private [Post edited 24 Feb 2017 15:22]
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"Coates estimates his family have put £80m in over the last nine years..."
Fernandes: "Fcking lightweight." |  |
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