| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar 12:19 - Apr 4 with 19709 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43639183
Now I know most of us think the gun laws in the US are crazy but they have the right to protect themselves and their homes.
I can't see how this is not reasonable force and self-defense. |  |
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| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 19:13 - Apr 4 with 3238 views | kensalriser |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 19:04 - Apr 4 by DavieQPR |
The small but noisy P.C. crowd will accuse him of killing someone who had a difficult upbringing and he should have just pointed out the error of his ways.
The second burglar will receive help and compensation for the trauma. [Post edited 4 Apr 2018 19:08]
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Everyone's on a Mac now. |  |
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| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 19:20 - Apr 4 with 3237 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
Well I'll admit I had taken the old guy account of this as the truth and it still may be but yes, he could be lying, made up he was burglary and so on. | |
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| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 19:21 - Apr 4 with 3233 views | Bluce_Ree |
Difficult when there are two intruders because there is a witness but if I was in this situation I'd dump the body. Fk going to prison over burglar scum. |  |
| ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE THROUGH MARTI THE REDEEMER WHO STRENGTHENS ME. |
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| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 19:22 - Apr 4 with 3232 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 19:13 - Apr 4 by kensalriser |
Everyone's on a Mac now. |
I'm not you can eat your apple and choke on it. | |
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| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 19:26 - Apr 4 with 3216 views | LongsufferingR |
It's amazing the number of people who know exactly what went on from a headline. Must be so simple being a policeman. |  | | |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 19:34 - Apr 4 with 3194 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 19:26 - Apr 4 by LongsufferingR |
It's amazing the number of people who know exactly what went on from a headline. Must be so simple being a policeman. |
Well it's the police that has given out the information that it was a burglary and "One suspect, armed with a screwdriver, forced the man into his kitchen where a struggle ensued and he was stabbed, Scotland Yard said"
I don't see any allegedly in that. [Post edited 4 Apr 2018 19:36]
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| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 19:55 - Apr 4 with 3137 views | LongsufferingR |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 19:34 - Apr 4 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
Well it's the police that has given out the information that it was a burglary and "One suspect, armed with a screwdriver, forced the man into his kitchen where a struggle ensued and he was stabbed, Scotland Yard said"
I don't see any allegedly in that. [Post edited 4 Apr 2018 19:36]
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Not my point. With respect you'd need a lot more detail than that to have a trial and determine exactly what happened. Many people seem to have decided already with no more detail than is in the sentence you quoted. | | | |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 20:09 - Apr 4 with 3120 views | SimonJames |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 18:43 - Apr 4 by BromleyHoop |
He’s not been charged according to this report. He’s been arrested. The only aggravating factor could be, like the chap shot by the farmer at his remote farmhouse some years ago, is if the fatal stab wound is in the back. It could be argued that the burglar was in the process of running away when he was stabbed which could be considered to be unreasonable and not proportionate. Which is why that farmer stood trial. |
Fair point "arrested" not "charged".
However I don't see that the cases are very similar. Tony Martin was 54 years old and had been burgled repeatedly, and had a shotgun.
If this story is true we are talking about a 78 year old man overpowering at least one man less than half his age, and then having the strength and accuracy to kill him with a screwdriver. Otherwise it was just bad luck that the burglar died from his stab wound (although it would serve him right). |  |
| 100% of people who drink water will die. |
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| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 20:16 - Apr 4 with 3113 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 19:55 - Apr 4 by LongsufferingR |
Not my point. With respect you'd need a lot more detail than that to have a trial and determine exactly what happened. Many people seem to have decided already with no more detail than is in the sentence you quoted. |
A jury may be tainted if details true or false is made public that is why details are rarely released before a court case, this is a police statement and they have to be very careful how they word it. it is worded as a fact and not apparent or alleged. | |
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| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 20:19 - Apr 4 with 3103 views | LongsufferingR |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 20:16 - Apr 4 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
A jury may be tainted if details true or false is made public that is why details are rarely released before a court case, this is a police statement and they have to be very careful how they word it. it is worded as a fact and not apparent or alleged. |
Still missing my point. I'll say for a third time that many people seem to have already decided what happened without knowing the full facts. | | | |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 20:50 - Apr 4 with 3071 views | BromleyHoop |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 20:09 - Apr 4 by SimonJames |
Fair point "arrested" not "charged".
However I don't see that the cases are very similar. Tony Martin was 54 years old and had been burgled repeatedly, and had a shotgun.
If this story is true we are talking about a 78 year old man overpowering at least one man less than half his age, and then having the strength and accuracy to kill him with a screwdriver. Otherwise it was just bad luck that the burglar died from his stab wound (although it would serve him right). |
Read my post again. I havent in any way said the cases are similar. I’m making a legal point about what is considered reasonable when you disturb a burglar in your home. |  |
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| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 23:54 - Apr 4 with 2991 views | SimonJames |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 20:50 - Apr 4 by BromleyHoop |
Read my post again. I havent in any way said the cases are similar. I’m making a legal point about what is considered reasonable when you disturb a burglar in your home. |
I'm not trying to have an argument here. I understand what you're saying about the possible legal ramifications.
My point is that if the true facts of the case are that, as the news is reporting, a 38 year old burglar attacked a 78 year old man, forcing him into his own kitchen and was subsequently overpowered and fatally stabbed in the back, it is almost inconceivable that he would be found guilty of murder. Even if the burglar was proved to be running away. It would be nigh on impossible to argue that the old man wasn't lashing out in self defence, dazed, confused and in fear for his own life.
Whereas Tony Martin knowingly shot the kid in the back with a shotgun from a distance (which I also don't think he deserved to be jailed for). | |
| 100% of people who drink water will die. |
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| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 02:48 - Apr 5 with 2956 views | timcocking |
Well played old fella. |  | | |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 11:35 - Apr 5 with 2865 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
Bailed till May. | |
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| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 13:04 - Apr 5 with 2817 views | easthertsr |
The use of force to protect your property and loved ones is a can of worms. Each case is entirely different and many factors apply. Take two scenarios firstly an escaped violent prisoner breaks in and threatens to steal and harm you. Secondly an abused teenager has run away from home and breaks in to get something to eat because he is starving. Would you say both deserve to be dealt with in the same way by the homeowner? Most break-ins are of course in the middle of these two extremes, it is why each case is dealt with individually, and after all of the facts are made known in a courtroom. |  | | |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 13:09 - Apr 5 with 2807 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 13:04 - Apr 5 by easthertsr |
The use of force to protect your property and loved ones is a can of worms. Each case is entirely different and many factors apply. Take two scenarios firstly an escaped violent prisoner breaks in and threatens to steal and harm you. Secondly an abused teenager has run away from home and breaks in to get something to eat because he is starving. Would you say both deserve to be dealt with in the same way by the homeowner? Most break-ins are of course in the middle of these two extremes, it is why each case is dealt with individually, and after all of the facts are made known in a courtroom. |
If they are armed and threatens, it makes no difference.
Oh excuse me, can I ask you some questions before I defend my wife, kids. home and self... [Post edited 5 Apr 2018 13:12]
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| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 13:18 - Apr 5 with 2780 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 20:19 - Apr 4 by LongsufferingR |
Still missing my point. I'll say for a third time that many people seem to have already decided what happened without knowing the full facts. |
No one has decided anything; a discussion is taking place. That's the purpose of a forum. |  | | |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 13:38 - Apr 5 with 2749 views | BasingstokeR |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 13:18 - Apr 5 by Benny_the_Ball |
No one has decided anything; a discussion is taking place. That's the purpose of a forum. |
You've seemingly decided "that no-one has decided anything"  |  | | |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 13:54 - Apr 5 with 2727 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 12:43 - Apr 4 by hopphoops |
Well anyone who stabs and kills someone will get arrested. The issue of self-defence will be addressed at the trial. |
This. I have no issue with the householder being arrested and bailed whilst the police investigate the case.
My concern is that even if the police verify the householder's account, the CPS may still prosecute if they suspect the level of force used was unreasonable. We then enter a grey area as what constitutes "reasonable force" is not specifically defined by law so ultimately it's for the jury to decide.
Here is the government's view on protecting yourself against intruders:
https://www.gov.uk/reasonable-force-against-intruders
How on earth the government expect the public to coldly calculate reasonable force in the heat of the moment is beyond me. | | | |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 19:28 - Apr 5 with 2645 views | BromleyHoop |
Suspect named as Henry Vincent. Sadly the circumstances of his death are doing a huge disservice to the reputation of the gypsy community. | |
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| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 19:48 - Apr 5 with 2628 views | RBlock |
As ever with matters such as these, I would refer those who are interested to read the take by the Secret Barrister, linked below. Blogs very well on a number of different criminal law matters in the public eye, and has also just released his/her first book which has been well recieved, although I haven't had the chance to read it yet.
https://thesecretbarrister.com/2018/04/05/bashing-burglars-and-the-law-of-self-d |  | | |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 20:22 - Apr 5 with 2593 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 19:28 - Apr 5 by BromleyHoop |
Suspect named as Henry Vincent. Sadly the circumstances of his death are doing a huge disservice to the reputation of the gypsy community. |
Mr Vincent was named and pictured by Kent Police in January as part of an investigation into a distraction burglary.
Jewellery and valuables were stolen from a man in his 70s, police said at the time.
A witness said an accomplice dragged Mr Vincent toward a van before leaving him for dead. | |
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| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 22:11 - Apr 5 with 2537 views | smegma |
Mr Osborn-Brooks has been released on bail. Now he can get home and look after his disabled wife.
Never known anyone under suspicion of murder to be bailed. | | | |
| A 78-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of murder of burglar on 23:51 - Apr 5 with 2499 views | smegma |
No loss to society. | | | |
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