| What have we learned so far? — Analysis 17:08 - Aug 22 with 15968 views | Northernr |
Well, QPR may not be making signings, but LFW is. Delighted to say that Dan Lambert, who we saw publishing excellent analysis on QPR on a substack last year, has agreed to do a series of pieces for this site through the season.
Here's the first, looking at early learnings on what Beale is trying to do/change. Give it a read, it's really good stuff, complete departure from LFW's usual beer stories and cock jokes, and it's a young and talented journo with a big career ahead of him who deserves your support.
@DanLambert_ on the Twitter if you want to give him a follow or say something nice.
 What have we learned so far? — Analysis 22nd Aug 2022 17:03Delighted to say that Dan Lambert has agreed to bring a series of his tactical analysis pieces to LFW this season, starting with this piece on the early changes and learnings from Michael Beale’s initial games in charge.  23
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| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 23:26 - Aug 22 with 2266 views | GloryHunter |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 23:06 - Aug 22 by JamieNaz |
Because as he's mentioned, it's not always the closest player to the ball who presses. If the the players press and the opposition ball carrier has progressed further up the pitch than our front three, then it's the midfielder closest who presses, and then our 10 presses their full back.
Found it very interesting. I'd be keen to understand more about what the pressing triggers are. Often struggled to work out what they were in the matches I've been to so far this season. I thought we'd press more, so not sure when the players are supposed to do it, vs when they don't |
And you think the average footballer has the ability to process all this while he is playing at high tempo, gasping for breath, being shouted at by his team-mates and the crowd? And then he's got to try to remember in a split second whether it's his job to close down the ball-carrier or leave it to the bloke behind him?
If you read or listen to the interviews with the members of Warnock's promotion-winning team, they all said he gave them very simple instructions, and didn't over-complicate anything. And that gave them the confidence to play with freedom. |  | | |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 23:29 - Aug 22 with 2262 views | GloryHunter |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 23:20 - Aug 22 by Northernr |
Jesus, you call me out repeatedly for the emotional stuff, don’t agree with this, don’t agree with that, I think you’ll find… I go elsewhere to find a really interesting and talented guy to provide you 2500 words of analytics, trying to cater to a different audience who think I go OTT, and that’s your comment. Be better. Be kinder.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Clive, I don't think we are criticising Dan - far from it - his analysis is excellent. From my position anyway, I am questioning Beale's theory that Dan is presenting. Sorry for any misunderstanding. | | | |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 23:56 - Aug 22 with 2204 views | Northernr |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 23:29 - Aug 22 by GloryHunter |
Clive, I don't think we are criticising Dan - far from it - his analysis is excellent. From my position anyway, I am questioning Beale's theory that Dan is presenting. Sorry for any misunderstanding. |
Absolutely not you mate. I'm calling Myke out, as he's done to me many times. Because I think that's a needlessly snide, lazy remark. | | | |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 01:00 - Aug 23 with 2131 views | Myke |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 23:20 - Aug 22 by Northernr |
Jesus, you call me out repeatedly for the emotional stuff, don’t agree with this, don’t agree with that, I think you’ll find… I go elsewhere to find a really interesting and talented guy to provide you 2500 words of analytics, trying to cater to a different audience who think I go OTT, and that’s your comment. Be better. Be kinder.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Clive, this was just a throwaway remark.I gave a deeper explanation of my dislike for this level of analysis - while completely removing Dan from my criticism (the level of detail is seriously impressive) - at the end of the actual piece. You should have seen it there.
As for calling each other out , absolutely no problem at all. You should know by now I have the height of respect for both you and your work, but of course if I disagree, I will say so (most of the time anyway - the Hendrick thing just became tedious after a while) and I expect no less in return. I would like to think I do so respectfully.
Just to be clear, I am not being in anyway critical of Dan here. But I am very concerned if Beale is seriously gone to this level 'control' over the players actions on the pitch - what does he want? Robots? Of course you need structure and a 'plan' but this is seriously OTT in my view. Football is basically a very SIMPLE, spontaneous and beautiful game to play and watch. But where is the joy in that level of control for the players? I have reviewed my opinion of Beale and not in a good way. But then you see Armstrong swashbuckling around the place and he is clearly not following any 'trigger passes' yet Beale still seems to like him - all very confusing. |  | | |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 01:09 - Aug 23 with 2120 views | LythamR |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 23:26 - Aug 22 by GloryHunter |
And you think the average footballer has the ability to process all this while he is playing at high tempo, gasping for breath, being shouted at by his team-mates and the crowd? And then he's got to try to remember in a split second whether it's his job to close down the ball-carrier or leave it to the bloke behind him?
If you read or listen to the interviews with the members of Warnock's promotion-winning team, they all said he gave them very simple instructions, and didn't over-complicate anything. And that gave them the confidence to play with freedom. |
Well thats what all the drills on the training ground are for surely, ideally it then becomes second nature like a muscle memory
I really enjoyed this piece, it will be interesting to see how our performances might improve over time if we are able to apply these tactics effectively more often during games
Looking forward to the next chapter |  | | |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 02:03 - Aug 23 with 2094 views | CLAREMAN1995 |
That is incredible work fair play to Dan .Amazing details and sounds like we are going in a totally new direction ubder MB.He keeps saying its coming together so hopefully it will all click and we will go on a nice wining run | | | |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 03:32 - Aug 23 with 2075 views | Match82 |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 01:00 - Aug 23 by Myke |
Clive, this was just a throwaway remark.I gave a deeper explanation of my dislike for this level of analysis - while completely removing Dan from my criticism (the level of detail is seriously impressive) - at the end of the actual piece. You should have seen it there.
As for calling each other out , absolutely no problem at all. You should know by now I have the height of respect for both you and your work, but of course if I disagree, I will say so (most of the time anyway - the Hendrick thing just became tedious after a while) and I expect no less in return. I would like to think I do so respectfully.
Just to be clear, I am not being in anyway critical of Dan here. But I am very concerned if Beale is seriously gone to this level 'control' over the players actions on the pitch - what does he want? Robots? Of course you need structure and a 'plan' but this is seriously OTT in my view. Football is basically a very SIMPLE, spontaneous and beautiful game to play and watch. But where is the joy in that level of control for the players? I have reviewed my opinion of Beale and not in a good way. But then you see Armstrong swashbuckling around the place and he is clearly not following any 'trigger passes' yet Beale still seems to like him - all very confusing. |
I disagree with this. Spontaneity will always be a part of what makes football great, but it's going to get to a point where ability to process the game quickly is as important as actual ability.
And if it wasn't working, the very best managers and teams wouldn't be doing it. |  | | |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 06:12 - Aug 23 with 2040 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 03:32 - Aug 23 by Match82 |
I disagree with this. Spontaneity will always be a part of what makes football great, but it's going to get to a point where ability to process the game quickly is as important as actual ability.
And if it wasn't working, the very best managers and teams wouldn't be doing it. |
Have to agree.
I think this level of detail has always existed. Under Gerry Francis we clearly had a team that prioritised closing down in certain areas. For instance, if they were good at crosses and headers e.g. Sheff Utd we doubled up defending on the flanks to stop crosses and tried to guide them down the middle, knowing they were weaker at through balls and that Deane couldn't run behind.
What's changed is the language, "pressing" is newspeak for "closing down", "triggers" is "close McCarthy down because with his toblerone feet he'll cough the ball up every time" etc.
I might be biased, as part of my GAA "job" is analysing oppo tactics, so I love this anyway, but I'm delighted to read this stuff, I can't get enough of it when it's good, and I think Dan is as good as I've seen. |  |
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| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 07:12 - Aug 23 with 1970 views | nix |
Thanks Dan . I'm a bit of a stats and tactics nerd so I love this stuff, especially as I never actually played the game so it helps to follow what's going on for me.
I agree that we need a bit more of this kind of structure for our players. I remember Eze saying he'd learnt so much since going to Palace and I think it's this kind of thing as Hodgson clearly had a very clear structure. Other teams seemed to execute the press so much better than us and I can see why now.
One aspect that doesn't seem to be working yet in closing players down is the press following dead ball situations in our box. Other teams appear much better at closing down the shot from outside the box, whereas teams seem to have free shots against us and I'm not sure if it's that we haven't got a system or that they aren't executing it well yet.
As for the emotion in your writing Clive, for me personally it's what raises the bar from it being merely excellent to superlative. It's the recognition of fellow feeling that makes the writing so good. We don't all have the same experiences as you or most of them anyway but we still get it and it helps us to deal with what's going on in our own lives. That's what the best writing does, as well as entertain. |  | | |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 07:18 - Aug 23 with 1965 views | Phildo |
Really enjoyed that although I had to read it a few times to fully understand.
I don't think it is that hard to follow for a professional footballer after practice on the training ground- they are learning what pod they are in and what to do when in and what to do when out out of possession in that particular pod.
I think it has showed in the games so far - a distinct pattern of play. It looks to me that if we fail this year that wont be down to lack of tactical nous. I also prefer it when a team has a distinct pattern rather than playing each game having looked at your opponent.
Opposition will of course target any system- in this case the narrow nature of the team but that is something they anticipate and if we can learn to deal with set pieces we can be ok I think.
Now about that striker..... |  | | |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 07:51 - Aug 23 with 1873 views | stevec |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 23:06 - Aug 22 by JamieNaz |
Because as he's mentioned, it's not always the closest player to the ball who presses. If the the players press and the opposition ball carrier has progressed further up the pitch than our front three, then it's the midfielder closest who presses, and then our 10 presses their full back.
Found it very interesting. I'd be keen to understand more about what the pressing triggers are. Often struggled to work out what they were in the matches I've been to so far this season. I thought we'd press more, so not sure when the players are supposed to do it, vs when they don't |
It is interesting, might partly explain why I’ve thought we lose shape so easily when maybe that’s part of the Beale deal.
Blackpool game, there were quite a few instances where, in possession at the back we would have as many as 4 up front, likewise when three midfielders pressed to get the ball back we could have as many as 6 along the back line. The latter has meant, when successfully getting the ball back, the transition getting forward wasn’t as fast as it could have been, particularly down our left flank. Guess that’s all part of the learning curve.
Let’s see if the whole team can get this together, could well work but there is the worry that carrying out what is fairly complicated stuff, how easy players might get disillusioned if the strikers keep blowing good chances. The desire for simple could undermine everything unless you’ve got a set of intelligent patient footballers and I’m unsure how many of those are about. |  | | |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 08:05 - Aug 23 with 1849 views | joe90 |
Thoroughly enjoyed that, thank you.
It's come at a good time as I'm currently reading 'inverting the pyramid' (highly recommend it to anyone who enjoyed this article), so having a detailed analysis of QPR tactics is perfect.
I'm open to learning about football and always find it fascinating how differently people view the game - one of the reason I come on this message board.
I'd be interested to know if having read this it's changed anyone's view on our performances/players? |  | | |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 08:22 - Aug 23 with 1818 views | dmm |
I'd be very interested to learn how Dan Lambert watches a game to understand the tactics etc. being used. Are there any tips he could share? Or similarly any tips from posters on here? |  | | |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 08:28 - Aug 23 with 1804 views | bakerloo8 |
People moaning they don't understand tactics so professional players who eat this 8 hours a day 5 days a week to eventually know it inside out as reflex don't, is as alarming as it is funny. Please continue.
Nice tactical analysis Dan. I hope to read more and see it better implemented by the players as the penny drops. [Post edited 23 Aug 2022 8:30]
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| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 09:00 - Aug 23 with 1739 views | TheChef |
Great stuff, look forward to more from Dan through the season.
Almost mathematic in some ways - geometry/angles, opening space, closing space. I think the signs are promising so far, we just need to stop conceding soft goals especially from set pieces.
Rome wasn't built in a day and all that. |  |
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| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 09:03 - Aug 23 with 1733 views | ngbqpr |
Fantastic stuff Dan, and thanks Clive for facilitating.
For those doubting the wisdom of such detailed planning from Beale and his team...having been lucky enough to do some of the more advanced coaching courses on offer, and also witnessed a number of academy coaching sessions over the years...this is all standard. These players are being readied for all this from the age of 8 (I'd venture to suggest this is what Warbs was driving at re players who haven't had an academy education - this is the stuff they need to get up to speed on).
And as Brian says, it's not the wheel being reinvented, it's new terminology, of course some new ideas...but jeeez, we were lucky enough to have Sexton and Venables, two of the most progressive thinking English coaches ever, and arguably our two most successful - don't we all want a bit more of that?
Looking forward to the next instalment - and yes, I did have to read this feature twice, very slowly and deliberately, but it was worth it. |  |
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| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 09:16 - Aug 23 with 1673 views | Myke |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 06:12 - Aug 23 by BrianMcCarthy |
Have to agree.
I think this level of detail has always existed. Under Gerry Francis we clearly had a team that prioritised closing down in certain areas. For instance, if they were good at crosses and headers e.g. Sheff Utd we doubled up defending on the flanks to stop crosses and tried to guide them down the middle, knowing they were weaker at through balls and that Deane couldn't run behind.
What's changed is the language, "pressing" is newspeak for "closing down", "triggers" is "close McCarthy down because with his toblerone feet he'll cough the ball up every time" etc.
I might be biased, as part of my GAA "job" is analysing oppo tactics, so I love this anyway, but I'm delighted to read this stuff, I can't get enough of it when it's good, and I think Dan is as good as I've seen. |
I am the exact opposite of you Brian (and Nix) when it comes to this mindset. I shudder at reams of data, charts (again for Clive's benefit NOT a dig at Dan) and the like. I'm a poet, literally (albeit largely unpublished) and figuratively. I love the abstract, the oblique and the 'unknown', particularly in the context of a football match. I understand people like you (wife is an accountant, brother a software analyst - whatever that means!), but I cannot relate at all. I don't even like filling in forms!
You say that the likes of Gerry Francis was doing this 30 years ago and that fine. Obviously you need a structure and to do your homework on the oppos strengths and weaknesses and plan accordingly, but what Beale is doing here is a world away from that.
I worry that football games are already turning into a game of chess and this level of control over a player's movements and decision making is only going to exacerbate and accelerate that. I WANT players to make mistakes (preferably the oppos) and players to produce flashes of genius (ours), but I feel this will eventually be coached out of them and we will be left with a vanilla version of the game we all love. I can imagine a scenario in ten years time when those in attendance, instead of screaming and shouting, will be nodding sagely at each other, as our no 10 executes a perfect 'press' in response to a 'trigger pass'. You can imagine the response of the greatest No 10 we ever had if he was handed this data. | | | |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 09:21 - Aug 23 with 1657 views | ngbqpr |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 09:16 - Aug 23 by Myke |
I am the exact opposite of you Brian (and Nix) when it comes to this mindset. I shudder at reams of data, charts (again for Clive's benefit NOT a dig at Dan) and the like. I'm a poet, literally (albeit largely unpublished) and figuratively. I love the abstract, the oblique and the 'unknown', particularly in the context of a football match. I understand people like you (wife is an accountant, brother a software analyst - whatever that means!), but I cannot relate at all. I don't even like filling in forms!
You say that the likes of Gerry Francis was doing this 30 years ago and that fine. Obviously you need a structure and to do your homework on the oppos strengths and weaknesses and plan accordingly, but what Beale is doing here is a world away from that.
I worry that football games are already turning into a game of chess and this level of control over a player's movements and decision making is only going to exacerbate and accelerate that. I WANT players to make mistakes (preferably the oppos) and players to produce flashes of genius (ours), but I feel this will eventually be coached out of them and we will be left with a vanilla version of the game we all love. I can imagine a scenario in ten years time when those in attendance, instead of screaming and shouting, will be nodding sagely at each other, as our no 10 executes a perfect 'press' in response to a 'trigger pass'. You can imagine the response of the greatest No 10 we ever had if he was handed this data. |
The detail in all this is precisely to create the best opportunities for the Willocks and Chairs to create magic.
It's why Pep is so good.
It's what Sexton did to allow Stan to be Stan...and, credit where it's due, what Warnock did to allow Adel to be Adel.
It's not control for the sake of controlling - it's a firm foundation on which to allow the creativity to flow.
When you write a poem, is it completely stream of consciousness / freestyle? Or does it nod to the structures that have been inherent in the art form for centuries? | |
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| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 09:26 - Aug 23 with 1644 views | ted_hendrix |
In all seriousness It's gobbledygook to me.
"pressing triggers"
"wide pressing traps"
"higher proactive press"
What the effing hell is a "half position"?
I think I've sussed out "rest attack" I reckon that's when our forwards chill out for a bit and do a bit of meditation/yoga or something.
"an asymmetric back three" What the bloody hell is that???
"Beale’s fluid final third" Sounds like a home beer brewing kit to me.
Dear me--Is this as good as It gets?
"an asymmetric back three" (that's my favourite wtf Is he on about). |  |
| My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic. |
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| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 09:38 - Aug 23 with 1578 views | CliveWilsonSaid |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 09:26 - Aug 23 by ted_hendrix |
In all seriousness It's gobbledygook to me.
"pressing triggers"
"wide pressing traps"
"higher proactive press"
What the effing hell is a "half position"?
I think I've sussed out "rest attack" I reckon that's when our forwards chill out for a bit and do a bit of meditation/yoga or something.
"an asymmetric back three" What the bloody hell is that???
"Beale’s fluid final third" Sounds like a home beer brewing kit to me.
Dear me--Is this as good as It gets?
"an asymmetric back three" (that's my favourite wtf Is he on about). |
Opposite to a symmetrical back 3 obviously  |  |
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| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 09:40 - Aug 23 with 1567 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 09:16 - Aug 23 by Myke |
I am the exact opposite of you Brian (and Nix) when it comes to this mindset. I shudder at reams of data, charts (again for Clive's benefit NOT a dig at Dan) and the like. I'm a poet, literally (albeit largely unpublished) and figuratively. I love the abstract, the oblique and the 'unknown', particularly in the context of a football match. I understand people like you (wife is an accountant, brother a software analyst - whatever that means!), but I cannot relate at all. I don't even like filling in forms!
You say that the likes of Gerry Francis was doing this 30 years ago and that fine. Obviously you need a structure and to do your homework on the oppos strengths and weaknesses and plan accordingly, but what Beale is doing here is a world away from that.
I worry that football games are already turning into a game of chess and this level of control over a player's movements and decision making is only going to exacerbate and accelerate that. I WANT players to make mistakes (preferably the oppos) and players to produce flashes of genius (ours), but I feel this will eventually be coached out of them and we will be left with a vanilla version of the game we all love. I can imagine a scenario in ten years time when those in attendance, instead of screaming and shouting, will be nodding sagely at each other, as our no 10 executes a perfect 'press' in response to a 'trigger pass'. You can imagine the response of the greatest No 10 we ever had if he was handed this data. |
I don't think it's a matter of being opposites.
I'm a Rangers fan by birth but I love that we're a flair club, known for entertaining, attacking football. But the club of Stan is the club of Mancini, the club of Les is the club of Macca, the club of Sexton is the club of Warnock. All contributed to great football. They may have different approaches, but they're not opposites.
In GAA I love open football and open hurling (I recently bemoaned on here the slow death of open hurling), but when I analyse Gaelic Football I do so to gather info to help us attack better as well as defend better (where are they weak, where can we focus our attacks etc but also - crucially - what's the best way to stop them quickly so we can go quickly).
In any sport, there has to be analysis of and prep for the oppo. It may be as simple as Clough saying "stop Bowles and you stop QPR" or it may go another step or two further. Done well, it should lead to more attacking football, more joy, more creativity, more goals and more wins.
Much of Dan's article is, after all, about attacking. | |
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| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 09:40 - Aug 23 with 1561 views | TeddRanger |
I'm pleased to see this sort of analysis(even if I only understand about half of it!) so many thanks Dan.
Surely the naysayers don't have to read it and caught up in the game, there are probably very few of us that are thinking in as detailed a way as Dan has. But after the game... useful.
My two concerns with "Bealeball" are all our players back for corners and how easy the oppo find it to counterattack. Had Rotherham been better, we could have shipped three or four. | | | |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 09:49 - Aug 23 with 1521 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 09:40 - Aug 23 by TeddRanger |
I'm pleased to see this sort of analysis(even if I only understand about half of it!) so many thanks Dan.
Surely the naysayers don't have to read it and caught up in the game, there are probably very few of us that are thinking in as detailed a way as Dan has. But after the game... useful.
My two concerns with "Bealeball" are all our players back for corners and how easy the oppo find it to counterattack. Had Rotherham been better, we could have shipped three or four. |
"My two concerns with "Bealeball" are all our players back for corners and how easy the oppo find it to counterattack."
Agree about both, Tedd. Particularly concerned about their counterattack down the wings. I missed the Rotherham game but in every other game so far we've allowed them past our forward line and even midfield line far too easily and far too quickly. | |
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| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 09:59 - Aug 23 with 1477 views | Phildo |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 09:16 - Aug 23 by Myke |
I am the exact opposite of you Brian (and Nix) when it comes to this mindset. I shudder at reams of data, charts (again for Clive's benefit NOT a dig at Dan) and the like. I'm a poet, literally (albeit largely unpublished) and figuratively. I love the abstract, the oblique and the 'unknown', particularly in the context of a football match. I understand people like you (wife is an accountant, brother a software analyst - whatever that means!), but I cannot relate at all. I don't even like filling in forms!
You say that the likes of Gerry Francis was doing this 30 years ago and that fine. Obviously you need a structure and to do your homework on the oppos strengths and weaknesses and plan accordingly, but what Beale is doing here is a world away from that.
I worry that football games are already turning into a game of chess and this level of control over a player's movements and decision making is only going to exacerbate and accelerate that. I WANT players to make mistakes (preferably the oppos) and players to produce flashes of genius (ours), but I feel this will eventually be coached out of them and we will be left with a vanilla version of the game we all love. I can imagine a scenario in ten years time when those in attendance, instead of screaming and shouting, will be nodding sagely at each other, as our no 10 executes a perfect 'press' in response to a 'trigger pass'. You can imagine the response of the greatest No 10 we ever had if he was handed this data. |
Really - what about Dave Sexton? Do you think that guy did not have a pattern of play for his players to execute? | | | |
| What have we learned so far? — Analysis on 10:02 - Aug 23 with 1461 views | 89_50 |
Really nice breakdown of what MB is trying to implement. I look forward to reading more of these throughout the season.
While it's still early days, the MB approach - defensively at least - seems to be progressing.
Of the goals we've conceded so far:
- Blackburn's was an unbelievable strike
- Boro's were from a set piece (again) and overloading in a wide position
- Sunderland's were a follow up from a Seny save (poor anticipation from our defence) and bundling through the backline from a long ball forward (again weak individual moments)
- Blackpool was poor clearing lines and failure to shut Bowler down
- Rotherham poor clearing lines from a scuffed Field clearance
My point being, that we're not conceding through poor organisation. More individual accountability.
Set-pieces are my (on-going) concern. But I'll reserve proper judgment until the international break.
Cheers. |  | | |
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