| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... 13:56 - Jan 26 with 2502 views | Antti_Heinola |
Some valid points have been made about there not being any consultation with fans about the move. Of course, there's very little that could have been consulted so far, but let's forget that discussion, and let's forget the rights and wrongs of TF's leadership so far. Let's look to the future.
Here's a challenge to the large number of fans representatives that exist at the moment - from Dave Thomas, to Clive, to Tracy, to Finney, to Neil, to Dave Mc, to Joe Hylton, Jamie, to that guy that runs that website that details every tiny thing about the club - forgotten his name - to all of you - all of those that frequently put heads above the parapet and who have legitimate concerns about the move and the future of the club.
Produce a document that details your concerns and try, if you can, to find a consensus from fans about how you would like to see the club move forward. Forget about arguing against a move, that's nonsensical and a waste of time, but look at these issues:
- Capacity: What capacity do you want 30k? 35k? If 35k is ok, is 40k really a problem? If it is going to be 40k, do you have suggestions to make sure it doesn't feel like an empty cavern when not too full?
- Design: Your ideas about style and design of the stadium. Examples of other big stadiums that have worked - and examples of those that have failed.
- Facilities: What do you want from the inside of your stadium and the outside? Should there be a museum celebrating the club's history and best players and managers? How can you stop Frankie & Benny's from moving in?
- Should the possibility of safe standing be incorporated into the design in case laws change between now and the move? Should there be a 'singing area'? Family stand? How about something totally new, like 'affordable exec boxes' - boxes with prices that are affordable to all fans - maybe not as luxurious as the others, but how about if there are 3 boxes per game that can be hired at a decent price by ordinary fans who fancy a bit of luxury once a season?
- Pricing: Have you got some innovative ideas regarding pricing - pricing for kids, pricing for the disabled, pricing for the elderly, pricing for families. Should prices differ from game to game, depending on opposition? Or should they be consistent?
- What are your major concerns about the move? Do you worry about the club losing its identity? If so, what is that identity? We keep going on about that - but what is it? Is it the lower division club it was the first two thirds of its existence, or are we a top division club? How could we risk losing that identity - whatever it is, and how can we stop that from happening?
- TF's aim is to somehow conjure a bigger club - one that can qualify for the UEFA Cup every now and again, and challenge for domestic cups. This is a huge change for the culture of our club, which has only, when you take the last 130 years as a whole, experienced only extremely short and sporadic moments of what could be described as 'success'. If this is to be achieved, can it be done without alienating the existing fanbase, and if so, how?
That's really just for starters. If there are a group of people who feel as strongly as Neil clearly does, and as I believe Clive does, they shouldn't stop there. This should be a 100-page brochure, detailing every aspect of their dreams of what the club could be, their fears of what it could turn into, and the best way success can be achieved. So it should encompass the youth programme, transfer policy, managerial appointments, how to achieve continuity, how the club can support itself without becoming an ugly version of a franchise. And it should include community work. QPR in the Community does a very fine job, but how can this be continued and expanded, and how can the club ensure that no matter how ambitious it is, it does not forget its roots. Should there be a fan on the board, even? Should he or she be elected every four years? Should the fans be given the chance to club together to buy, say, 5% of the club at a fair rate? (10,000 fans putting in an average of £100 each would raise a million).
I'm not offering to do this, or even to get involved bar ticking some boxes on a form. QPR are a big part of my life - but not that big. I go because I love watching football and they are my team. I protested and got chased by police during the Thompson era and I walked to Brentford during the buckets era. But I'm older now, I have other priorities - work, and family. But over the last few weeks this board has shown that there are strong views out there from some people - some angry people in some cases.
So what I say is: don't wait to be 'consulted'. Get out there and do your own consultation. Tell the club you're doing it, if you want. Inform them that before the start of next season you will be providing them with a professional document that has successfully polled and questioned our existing fanbase about the future of the club. Tell the press. Tell David Conn at the Guardian. Get some publicity for it. Make sure it's positive, that it looks for solutions and doesn't just offer whinges and fears. Make it realistic. Acknowledge that, whether we like it or not, football has changed and that we can't turn the clock back, but there are clubs out there who remain close to their fans - and we should be one of them.
And then present it. And if they don't listen, at least you'll know you've done everything - EVERYTHING - you can. To those who make impassioned comments about the future of the club on here and other forums - are you now willing to step up, just as people were willing to step up to save the club a decade ago? Are you able to help try and direct the club when times are good (and they are good, now - it seems many people don't really have a grasp on the history of this club when bemoaning a defeat on a Saturday this season) not just when times are terrible?
Well? |  |
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| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 14:06 - Jan 26 with 1965 views | TheBlob |
Are these "Leaders" democratically elected?And if not how much are they offering as a bribe? |  |
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| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 14:12 - Jan 26 with 1953 views | RangersAreBack |
Fan leaders? None of these people represent me or my views. |  | | |
| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 14:20 - Jan 26 with 1925 views | TheBlob |
So do an online questionaire already - password,email,the full monty. | |
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| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 14:26 - Jan 26 with 1906 views | Clive_Anderson |
Two tiers at the ends, three at the sides with the ability to close the top tiers off if needed.
Stands near the pitch, built to be able to convert to terracing on the lower tiers when it is allowed again.
Ability to expand further in the future just in case (get some land around it). Don't want to be in this position again in 30 years time on the off chance we get a lot bigger. |  | | |
| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 14:28 - Jan 26 with 1904 views | ted_hendrix |
My Opinion.
The club have an address with a post code, the club has a an e-mail address.
I thin the club could set up an e-mail address solely for supporters to air their respective concerns/thoughts etc.
I heard the end of the Southend's owner discussing the new Southend ground on the radio yesterday, from what I heard they have taken a lot of the fans views on board which is of course what we want here.
The last thing you want is committees sitting in meetings, yes you've got to have them but fck me do they ever sit there and talk bolox, I should know.
There comes a point when you want to say, shut the fck up and get to the point. |  |
| My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic. |
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| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 14:29 - Jan 26 with 1894 views | HollowayRanger |
i dont listen to anybody conserning QPR
those at the top have the power and if they screw it up so be it
my best football days are behind me as far as im concerned
now ?
its a hobbie/choir/something to do
more than an exciting day out
and if it ends which it will by me/club either moving away ,getting too old, money tight,or club going bust
so be it, see as much on computer streams /sell soul to sky /go and support my local team 
ok ok foget that that up knitting instead  |  |
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| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 14:43 - Jan 26 with 1859 views | WeaverQPR |
Tony will do what suits Tony and thats it. Ok so he sits in the stands on the odd matchday has a cheeky half in the bok while high fiveing everybody while they tell him how great he is doing, but i very much doubt he will be taking much of whats said in. Its just PR.
I doubt TF will be bothered if the ground is 50% Rangers and 50% away fans & daytrippers paying £45 a ticket with no atmosphere,just aslong as its full. |  |
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| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 15:37 - Jan 26 with 1769 views | PunteR |
Sorry Antti,I accidentally pressed the poxy down button.
I agree with some of the concerns that you raised and should be considered by TF. A lot of it though should be common sense,there's plenty of clubs that TF can learn from. No one wants a half empty stadium or high ticket prices or ridiculous prices for a hotdog. Free parking would be good. Keep prices low and the football entertaining. Easy peasy.
I'm just a punter though. |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 15:41 - Jan 26 with 1757 views | TheBlob |
| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 15:37 - Jan 26 by PunteR |
Sorry Antti,I accidentally pressed the poxy down button.
I agree with some of the concerns that you raised and should be considered by TF. A lot of it though should be common sense,there's plenty of clubs that TF can learn from. No one wants a half empty stadium or high ticket prices or ridiculous prices for a hotdog. Free parking would be good. Keep prices low and the football entertaining. Easy peasy.
I'm just a punter though. |
psssssstttttt.....if you've accidentally pushed the down arrow you can sometimes rectify it by pressing the up arrow button. | |
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| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 15:58 - Jan 26 with 1713 views | smegma |
| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 14:28 - Jan 26 by ted_hendrix |
My Opinion.
The club have an address with a post code, the club has a an e-mail address.
I thin the club could set up an e-mail address solely for supporters to air their respective concerns/thoughts etc.
I heard the end of the Southend's owner discussing the new Southend ground on the radio yesterday, from what I heard they have taken a lot of the fans views on board which is of course what we want here.
The last thing you want is committees sitting in meetings, yes you've got to have them but fck me do they ever sit there and talk bolox, I should know.
There comes a point when you want to say, shut the fck up and get to the point. |
Why dont you shut up and get to the point TED ?
Oh, you did already ! | | | |
| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 15:59 - Jan 26 with 1706 views | smegma |
| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 14:29 - Jan 26 by HollowayRanger |
i dont listen to anybody conserning QPR
those at the top have the power and if they screw it up so be it
my best football days are behind me as far as im concerned
now ?
its a hobbie/choir/something to do
more than an exciting day out
and if it ends which it will by me/club either moving away ,getting too old, money tight,or club going bust
so be it, see as much on computer streams /sell soul to sky /go and support my local team
ok ok foget that that up knitting instead |
Have you noticed NO ONE listens to you about anything ??? !!! | | | |
| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 16:06 - Jan 26 with 1687 views | HollowayRanger |
| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 15:59 - Jan 26 by smegma |
Have you noticed NO ONE listens to you about anything ??? !!! |
Wouldnt expect anyone to
just putting my own personal view on the subject out there
otherwise whats the point | |
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| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 16:06 - Jan 26 with 1690 views | Antti_Heinola |
| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 15:37 - Jan 26 by PunteR |
Sorry Antti,I accidentally pressed the poxy down button.
I agree with some of the concerns that you raised and should be considered by TF. A lot of it though should be common sense,there's plenty of clubs that TF can learn from. No one wants a half empty stadium or high ticket prices or ridiculous prices for a hotdog. Free parking would be good. Keep prices low and the football entertaining. Easy peasy.
I'm just a punter though. |
No worries Punter.
I agree with you, there. All I really want is entertaining football too!
Blobster, you echo my point really - it's all very well saying TF must consult with fans, but who? ST holders? Exiles? Members? Everyone? Some vague questionnaire?
Ted, I agree to an extent, but to me that's all a bit too vague - does the club need to spend time reading 3000 individual emails or letters?
I guess what I'm saying to those who have big concerns is: get organised. Or, if you're like me, and think it'll probably be ok, enjoy the ride. ;) | |
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| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 18:25 - Jan 26 with 1601 views | A40Bosh |
| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 16:06 - Jan 26 by Antti_Heinola |
No worries Punter.
I agree with you, there. All I really want is entertaining football too!
Blobster, you echo my point really - it's all very well saying TF must consult with fans, but who? ST holders? Exiles? Members? Everyone? Some vague questionnaire?
Ted, I agree to an extent, but to me that's all a bit too vague - does the club need to spend time reading 3000 individual emails or letters?
I guess what I'm saying to those who have big concerns is: get organised. Or, if you're like me, and think it'll probably be ok, enjoy the ride. ;) |
Antti
Whilst I thought I would be in favour of a formal fans consultation, I now think it's probably not going to achieve anything positive in real terms.
I say this because IMHO you cant build a new stadium by consensus and spend months arguing and negotiating with fans groups about how this new Stadium should look and feel and this is because the experience of going to Queens Park Rangers is so different for so many supporters and therefore transferring what they experience currently at LR to the new home could be at odds with what others might want or need and may go against what the owners and purse owners envisage.
If you accept that QPR FC has to move out to LR to a new stadium then I think that you have to rely on, at least to a large extent, that the current owners are now more in tune with the with supporters and are trying to get underneath the skin of the supporters by sitting in amongst them to get a true "feel" for what their current experience is. I don't understand any negativity to the news that TF is starting a programme of trying to melt into the background of the home games in different stands to try and soak up the current experience both good and bad that we all experience.
I think the general principles of design for the new stadium are understood by one and all. No new soulless bowl, stands tight to the pitch, more legroom, better facilities in every aspect of the in and outside stadium experience.
The new stadium will not look nor feel like LR, we have to get over that now. A 30K+ stadium can be built to mimic the structure, but there will always be something that certain groups will not like or complain about.
My concern is the current good intentions in the owners may be diluted by the realization in the next 4-5 years of spiraling costs to both build and maintain the new stadium and thus then prevents them from a policy of fair pricing to ensure that the long standing support moves to the new stadium and returns year on year. Brian McCarthy passed a comment somewhere about the current fans being priced out of the next generation QPR and that is a realistic fear to have.
Unless the board en masse change their underlying mindset from being merely fan savvy and fan friendly Investors to being QPR loving Benefactors who will continue to pump their global funds into a London Football club when there is no realistic return on investment in the short to medium term then at some point a lot of people on here and in the fanbase are going to become increasing disenfranchised with QPR 2.0.
In the new LR I believe there will be a lot to dislike for a large number of fans, because the investors need a new LR to be a lot more than a replica of an 18K outdated box that provides an intimidating atmosphere to away teams a couple of times a season.
So think, Nando's and TGI Friday, think poncy executive wine bars on the middle tier, think bands of Korean, Mayalsian or Philippine Johnny Come Lately with camcorders bigger than a Sky Cameraman.
What the board want and need from a new stadium will have to go far and beyond what the average season ticket holder needs or wants and for that reason, TF and co can initially listen all they want and factor in what they hear, but at the end of the day it will be their stadium.
He who pays the piper calls the tune and all that. |  |
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| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 19:08 - Jan 26 with 1558 views | TheBlob |
| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 16:06 - Jan 26 by Antti_Heinola |
No worries Punter.
I agree with you, there. All I really want is entertaining football too!
Blobster, you echo my point really - it's all very well saying TF must consult with fans, but who? ST holders? Exiles? Members? Everyone? Some vague questionnaire?
Ted, I agree to an extent, but to me that's all a bit too vague - does the club need to spend time reading 3000 individual emails or letters?
I guess what I'm saying to those who have big concerns is: get organised. Or, if you're like me, and think it'll probably be ok, enjoy the ride. ;) |
Just goes to show how fractious the support has become then.
I think you're right with the "just along for the ride" attitude,what else is there unless you're a shareholder - and then not much as i've found out.
I don't remember Jim Gregory consulting "Us" when he built the SAR,alright it was on the same venue but it all panned out and we were damn grateful for the modernisation - didn't hear anybody moaning about the constant soakings and muddy banks to slither down.
But then If I didn't like it I could have gone elsewhere couldn't I?
There's actually a lot of soul in chromed steel and glass - it's what human hearts make out of it that counts. | |
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| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 19:28 - Jan 26 with 1538 views | Rangersw12 |
First of all an excellent post
Capacity: 30k max you only have to look at history that we would never be able to sell out a 40k stadium , 30k would be about right which gives us room to grow the fanbase and offer cheap tickets
Design - 4 separate stands with two tiers near the pitch , only sell the bottom tier tickets first so that even if the its 20 k we could still generate an atmosphere and would look full on tv , Sunderland a prime example where the crowd the other week was 37 but still looked half empty
Facilities - don't really bother me as don't get in the ground till 5 to 3 most weeks , all I would ask for would be leg room and no pillars . With the location you can just about still drink in the pubs on the uxbridge road
I would have a family stand and a good idea about the boxes although watching the game in a box doesn't appeal to me
Pricing - Need to make it affordable to all , we have lost a lot of fans over the last few years with ridicules prices so we need to price it right no more than £30 for a premier league game for a start
Major concern for me is the capacity 40k is too much and all this build it they will come is laughable , Coventry are a prime example of what can happen if you don't get the capacity right . I don't want to go to a ground surrounded by tourists and away fans and if we build a 40k that is what they will looking be at to fill it . | | | |
| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 20:24 - Jan 26 with 1483 views | Northernr |
Given that I disagree with most on here, and most disagree with me, I don't think I should be on any list of "fan leaders" whatever they are. I speak for nobody except myself and my opinion should count no more or less than anybody else's. I've never sat on any LSA, QPR 1st or anything else because I don't want the hassle and responsibility of representing anybody else's views.
Plus the last thing I need is more work to do.
Leave me well out of it!
This post has been edited by an administrator |  | | |
| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 20:29 - Jan 26 with 1468 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Thinking about today, I don't see any need for the club to meet with groups. A questionnaire to members would be clean, democratic and straightforward. |  |
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| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 20:31 - Jan 26 with 1461 views | YorkRanger |
| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 20:24 - Jan 26 by Northernr |
Given that I disagree with most on here, and most disagree with me, I don't think I should be on any list of "fan leaders" whatever they are. I speak for nobody except myself and my opinion should count no more or less than anybody else's. I've never sat on any LSA, QPR 1st or anything else because I don't want the hassle and responsibility of representing anybody else's views.
Plus the last thing I need is more work to do.
Leave me well out of it!
This post has been edited by an administrator |
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| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 21:51 - Jan 26 with 1368 views | LythamR |
The basics in terms of pitchside stadium design would probably be agreed by a majority of QPR supporters and have been outlined above. Of course you are never going to get unanimous agreement on things but I do think its important that the club understands the views of as many supporters that can be bothered to give them as possible.
A firm (name escapes me at present) is being engaged by the club to manage the consultation process, I believe its the same firm that handled consultation when Arsenal moved from Highbury. I would hope that they will draw up an extensive survey that supporters will be encouraged to take part in.
A lot of what was said in the OP by Anti makes sense to me but I dont think there is a need to present extensive researched documentation to the club, for a start I dont think the resources exist currently within supporters organisations to pull it off and secondly the consultation firm will be doing much of this anyway and being well paid by TF and co for the privilege.
Whats individual supporters and groups can do is submit to the club the major ideas and concerns to make sure they are raised in the survey and consultation process.
different supporters do have widely different matchday experiences and expectations but a much bigger stadium designed from scratch should be able to cater comfortably for most if not all of them if they go about it in the right way |  | | |
| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 23:22 - Jan 26 with 1311 views | Antti_Heinola |
| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 20:24 - Jan 26 by Northernr |
Given that I disagree with most on here, and most disagree with me, I don't think I should be on any list of "fan leaders" whatever they are. I speak for nobody except myself and my opinion should count no more or less than anybody else's. I've never sat on any LSA, QPR 1st or anything else because I don't want the hassle and responsibility of representing anybody else's views.
Plus the last thing I need is more work to do.
Leave me well out of it!
This post has been edited by an administrator |
sorry norf! i just thought you probably had a bit of time on your hands ;) | |
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| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 11:56 - Jan 27 with 1165 views | peejaybee |
| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 23:22 - Jan 26 by Antti_Heinola |
sorry norf! i just thought you probably had a bit of time on your hands ;) |
Come on Norf,Shirley you have got a lunch hour you can give up.  |  |
| If at first you dont succeed, pack up and f**k off home. |
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| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 13:57 - Jan 27 with 1057 views | themodfather |
you can't adapt a huge development to meet ALL the requirements of the customer, most can't agree on a simple thing....i think the design is going to be the most important, a "bowl" or "4 sided square are the 2 most common but i would hope for some stand out feature.
colour of seats? i assume blue, with some white, likely spelling out a sponsor and qprfc.
leg space and view also will be important and pricing!
i have been some meets with the club, some may raise an issue on say aggressive stewards, another hot water in loo, what's more important? | | | |
| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 13:59 - Jan 27 with 1053 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| OK then, a challenge to Fan Leaders, re: New Ground... on 13:57 - Jan 27 by themodfather |
you can't adapt a huge development to meet ALL the requirements of the customer, most can't agree on a simple thing....i think the design is going to be the most important, a "bowl" or "4 sided square are the 2 most common but i would hope for some stand out feature.
colour of seats? i assume blue, with some white, likely spelling out a sponsor and qprfc.
leg space and view also will be important and pricing!
i have been some meets with the club, some may raise an issue on say aggressive stewards, another hot water in loo, what's more important? |
The club don't need to get agreement. They should seek opinions, however, and listen to the aggregate views. | |
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