| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium 10:17 - Aug 27 with 21649 views | ColDale |
We have been contacted by a large number of Trust members and Dale supporters in the last few weeks with regard to the purchase of Spotland by Rochdale A.F.C., with further enquiries after Keith Hill’s comments after the Bristol City game on Saturday.
Since April, there have been a number of statements and reports that have linked Rochdale A.F.C. with a bid to regain full ownership of Spotland Stadium, with a number of concerns raised throughout August about the role of Rochdale Council in this bid by both the board of directors at Rochdale A.F.C. and even the manager Keith Hill.
The creation of a Stadium Company back in the late 1980’s saw Rochdale A.F.C. retain a 45.5% shareholding in the Stadium, with Rochdale Hornets acquiring an equivalent shareholding and Rochdale Council taking on the remaining 9%. However, financial problems for Rochdale Hornets saw their shareholding transfer to the RFL as a result of a loan, and soon after they entered administration. They eventually were forced to reform and were allowed to play at Spotland.
However, the current three party ownership of Spotland Stadium has seen a significant debt accumulated. We believe the debt currently stands in excess of £600,000 and as things stand, it is increasing year by year. Under the current three party ownership, this debt will continue to grow until the day when it becomes unsustainable and the Stadium enters administration.
It was announced in April of this year, that Rochdale A.F.C. had launched a bid to acquire full ownership of the stadium. By pursuing full ownership of the Stadium, Rochdale A.F.C would take full responsibility for these debts.
Whilst concerns from supporters of Rochdale Hornets are understandable, we can confirm that any deal to take over the ownership of Spotland would include a long term lease at a reduced rent which would allow the continued use of Spotland by Rochdale Hornets. All supporters of Rochdale Hornets can be assured that there is no plan or desire to see them play home games away from Spotland.
It is our belief that earlier in the year, the Council were fully supportive of Rochdale A.F.C.’s bid to buy the Stadium, given the assurances regarding Rochdale Hornets and the Stadium Company debts. Not only that, the belief was that the RFL were willing to do business with Rochdale AFC given the assurances that were being made.
However, it would appear that the change in leadership at the Council no longer seems to be backing this plan. As such, we are asking questions about who’s best interest they are acting in. The new Council Leader Richard Farnell is a Rochdale Hornets sponsor and the man he placed in charge of the Stadium Company — Allen Brett — is a former Hornets director. Furthermore, after taking on the position on June 4th, Allen Brett spoke on BBC Radio on August denied any knowledge of a Stadium purchase claiming to be “flabberghasted” despite the bid being on the cards for a number of months and front page news in the Rochdale Observer.
We can confirm that one Trust member has already contacted the acting Chief Executive of the Council in the past week over a number of concerns regarding Allen Brett’s suitability for the position of Stadium Company Chairman.
We are very concerned as a representative body for Rochdale A.F.C. supporters that it would appear that the serving members of the Council are not acting in a way that is in the best interest of the people they represent, many of whom are supporters of Rochdale A.F.C. and as such, we as a Trust would like answers to the following questions:
*Given that Allen Brett has previously been a director of Rochdale Hornets and has represented their interests on the Stadium Company, does he retain the impartiality required to be Chairman of the Stadium Company?
*Furthermore, is the “Brett Loan” that is featured in the latest set of accounts for Rochdale Hornets in any way related to Allen Brett and his previous time as a director? Does this bring up a conflict of interest?
* Given that Allen Brett’s previous spell in charge of the Stadium Company approximately ten years ago saw non payment of rent to the stadium company over at least a three year period ( http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/other-sport/stadium-row-pits-club-a and Stadium Company debt reach record levels at the time, in what way does he remain a suitable candidate for the position?
* Again, we question his suitability for the role given he assumed the role of Chairman of the Stadium Company on 4th June, how could it be possible that over two months later, he is quoted as having no knowledge of RAFC’s bid for the stadium on Radio Manchester when there is evidence proving it had been on the Stadium Company agenda for a number of months previous to this? Surely at the very least, in becoming a director of the Stadium Company, there is a legal responsibility to do due diligence on that company?
*We are aware that some supporters have attempted to contact Allen Brett over these concerns. Why has there been no response to these emails give that he has been elected to represent the people?
Given that Rochdale Council retains a 9% stake in the stadium which carries a debt in excess of £600,000, in what way do the Council have plans to act upon behalf of its council tax payers to prevent the stadium entering administration as a result of this debt ?
* Given that Rochdale A.F.C is looking at a guaranteed long term lease for Rochdale Hornets. what other plans does Rochdale Council have to ensure the future of professional Rugby League within the town?
* In a town which continually attracts extremely negative media attention, why is the serving Council acting against the interests of one of the town’s biggest success stories in recent years?
We would like to invite all our members and Dale supporters to contact their local Councillors ( http://democracy.rochdale.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?VW=TABLE&PIC=1&FN ) and ask for their answers to the above questions. |  | | |  |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 14:27 - Aug 29 with 2513 views | Vespa |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 14:07 - Aug 29 by isitme |
If someone live in his constituency and they have a concern then surely he has to respond?
Especially if they adopt the slant that the council is subsiding a loss making business whilst making cuts to front line services? How can this continue when there is an offer on the table that will take this liability off council hands and secure the future of both sporting teams in the borough for the foreseeable future? |
Not sure the council or the RFL are actually subsidising the stadium. They don't put anything in do they?
The council, RFL and the Dale as shareholders are not actually liable for the debts. |  |
| Up the Dale, C'mon Hornets |
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| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 14:32 - Aug 29 with 2494 views | SuddenLad |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 14:07 - Aug 29 by isitme |
If someone live in his constituency and they have a concern then surely he has to respond?
Especially if they adopt the slant that the council is subsiding a loss making business whilst making cuts to front line services? How can this continue when there is an offer on the table that will take this liability off council hands and secure the future of both sporting teams in the borough for the foreseeable future? |
I wholeheartedly agree with the idea you suggest, but I suspect that he would merely direct questioners to the Town Hall when views can be exchanged at the relevant meetings.
His first job should have been to answer the previous numerous enquiries he has had rather than blaming the Trust for 'airing the matter in public'
The council tax payers of this Borough have a right to know what is happening to the money the Council used on their behalf in the Stadium Company and how they propose to deal with the matter from now onwards. It is unquestionably of public interest and concerns us all.
We've had enough bluff, bluster and bullshit. The time has arrived for answers and a full and proper response. |  |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 14:34 - Aug 29 with 2480 views | isitme |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 14:27 - Aug 29 by Vespa |
Not sure the council or the RFL are actually subsidising the stadium. They don't put anything in do they?
The council, RFL and the Dale as shareholders are not actually liable for the debts. |
I doubt the RFL are putting anything in.
No idea about the council? This is part of the problem though as there is no transparency about the whole situation. Why cannot the council come out with a statement which clears up the issues? |  | | |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 14:36 - Aug 29 with 2473 views | judd |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 14:27 - Aug 29 by Vespa |
Not sure the council or the RFL are actually subsidising the stadium. They don't put anything in do they?
The council, RFL and the Dale as shareholders are not actually liable for the debts. |
As I understand it,the large debt accrued by the Stadium Co relates mainly to a mortgage/loan owed to RMBC.
This large sum could be written off in the event of the Stadium Co ceasing to trade.
It is in the Council's best interests to do this commonsense deal. |  |
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| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 14:44 - Aug 29 with 2457 views | Vespa |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 14:36 - Aug 29 by judd |
As I understand it,the large debt accrued by the Stadium Co relates mainly to a mortgage/loan owed to RMBC.
This large sum could be written off in the event of the Stadium Co ceasing to trade.
It is in the Council's best interests to do this commonsense deal. |
Not sure how many loans and mortgages the council gave Denehurst Park but didn't the council already write at least one of them off a couple of years ago? | |
| Up the Dale, C'mon Hornets |
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| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 14:45 - Aug 29 with 2452 views | Vespa |
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/soccer-stars-on-a-ride-to
"Rochdale MBC will write off a long-standing debt owed to them by the Spotland Stadium Company - which includes both Dale and Hornets RL - and will help with the much-needed financing of pitch improvements.
Dunphy said: “I'd like to thank Rochdale Council for putting on a wonderful reception and for the kind and generous financial package they have put together to help support the club next season. I'm very pleased with everything the club has achieved this season, and I'm also pleased with how those achievements have reflected on the borough." [Post edited 29 Aug 2014 14:47]
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| Up the Dale, C'mon Hornets |
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| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 15:17 - Aug 29 with 2390 views | Vespa |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 14:45 - Aug 29 by Vespa |
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/soccer-stars-on-a-ride-to
"Rochdale MBC will write off a long-standing debt owed to them by the Spotland Stadium Company - which includes both Dale and Hornets RL - and will help with the much-needed financing of pitch improvements.
Dunphy said: “I'd like to thank Rochdale Council for putting on a wonderful reception and for the kind and generous financial package they have put together to help support the club next season. I'm very pleased with everything the club has achieved this season, and I'm also pleased with how those achievements have reflected on the borough." [Post edited 29 Aug 2014 14:47]
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judd. You seem to be quite savvy with company administration type thingies, more so than I.
Is there not another method that the Dale can use to wrestle ownership and control of the stadium? I'm thinking along the lines of a rights issue. The Stadium Co' needs to raise money, they issue shares in it's self (say double the existing number), offer these shares to the existing share holders for a certain price and in proportion to their existing holdings, those existing shareholders that want to take up the offer pay the price (the Dale) and those that don't take up the offer don't pay the price (the council and the RFL). Those shares remaining after the council and the RFL have declined to buy are then offered to the Dale who buy them.
If the number of shares offered double the original number of shares and the Council and the RFL decline to buy and the Dale do it would effectively reduce the councils holding to 4.5% of shares, the RFL's holding to 22.5% and increase the Dales holding to 73% thereby giving the Dale effective control.
I know this type of thing can happen in Public Limited Companies but what about just plain Limited Companies | |
| Up the Dale, C'mon Hornets |
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| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 15:20 - Aug 29 with 2381 views | ColDale |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 14:45 - Aug 29 by Vespa |
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/soccer-stars-on-a-ride-to
"Rochdale MBC will write off a long-standing debt owed to them by the Spotland Stadium Company - which includes both Dale and Hornets RL - and will help with the much-needed financing of pitch improvements.
Dunphy said: “I'd like to thank Rochdale Council for putting on a wonderful reception and for the kind and generous financial package they have put together to help support the club next season. I'm very pleased with everything the club has achieved this season, and I'm also pleased with how those achievements have reflected on the borough." [Post edited 29 Aug 2014 14:47]
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I'm not 100% certain that the Council actually followed through with this kind and generous offer. Could be wrong though. | | | |
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| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 15:27 - Aug 29 with 2362 views | Vespa |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 15:20 - Aug 29 by ColDale |
I'm not 100% certain that the Council actually followed through with this kind and generous offer. Could be wrong though. |
After having smelled some of the sh1t that comes from the council I'm pretty sure they follow through quite often. | |
| Up the Dale, C'mon Hornets |
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| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 15:40 - Aug 29 with 2335 views | judd |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 15:17 - Aug 29 by Vespa |
judd. You seem to be quite savvy with company administration type thingies, more so than I.
Is there not another method that the Dale can use to wrestle ownership and control of the stadium? I'm thinking along the lines of a rights issue. The Stadium Co' needs to raise money, they issue shares in it's self (say double the existing number), offer these shares to the existing share holders for a certain price and in proportion to their existing holdings, those existing shareholders that want to take up the offer pay the price (the Dale) and those that don't take up the offer don't pay the price (the council and the RFL). Those shares remaining after the council and the RFL have declined to buy are then offered to the Dale who buy them.
If the number of shares offered double the original number of shares and the Council and the RFL decline to buy and the Dale do it would effectively reduce the councils holding to 4.5% of shares, the RFL's holding to 22.5% and increase the Dales holding to 73% thereby giving the Dale effective control.
I know this type of thing can happen in Public Limited Companies but what about just plain Limited Companies |
Would need to see the memorandum of association. It's possible this is an avenue that the other shareholders wish to explore. | |
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| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 19:19 - Aug 29 with 2097 views | Thacks_Rabbits |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 15:17 - Aug 29 by Vespa |
judd. You seem to be quite savvy with company administration type thingies, more so than I.
Is there not another method that the Dale can use to wrestle ownership and control of the stadium? I'm thinking along the lines of a rights issue. The Stadium Co' needs to raise money, they issue shares in it's self (say double the existing number), offer these shares to the existing share holders for a certain price and in proportion to their existing holdings, those existing shareholders that want to take up the offer pay the price (the Dale) and those that don't take up the offer don't pay the price (the council and the RFL). Those shares remaining after the council and the RFL have declined to buy are then offered to the Dale who buy them.
If the number of shares offered double the original number of shares and the Council and the RFL decline to buy and the Dale do it would effectively reduce the councils holding to 4.5% of shares, the RFL's holding to 22.5% and increase the Dales holding to 73% thereby giving the Dale effective control.
I know this type of thing can happen in Public Limited Companies but what about just plain Limited Companies |
A Rights issue or similar idea would need overall consent of all shareholders - not sure of percentage as Judd states - there is no way they would agree it as it would basically give overall control to Dale.
Good idea though but again it would get nowhere. 1 point I did think about is, bearing in mind Hornets are using the same facilities and have the same rights of use at Spotland (assuming this is correct) is we insist that the rent is the same for both clubs - really start playing hard with them - we need to be as awkward as possible, question Bretts suitability, question current facility use, question the transfer of shares to RFL (I think this was done illegally as prior to any transfer due to insolvency other shareholders would almost always be given the option to purchase the shares at level offered by outside party) question everything basically.
Be interesting if a councilor stood against Brett purely on Dale grounds - sure it would hit his vote but I am sure Rush would give him plenty of backing!!!! |  |
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| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 20:53 - Aug 29 with 2009 views | TalkingSutty |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 19:19 - Aug 29 by Thacks_Rabbits |
A Rights issue or similar idea would need overall consent of all shareholders - not sure of percentage as Judd states - there is no way they would agree it as it would basically give overall control to Dale.
Good idea though but again it would get nowhere. 1 point I did think about is, bearing in mind Hornets are using the same facilities and have the same rights of use at Spotland (assuming this is correct) is we insist that the rent is the same for both clubs - really start playing hard with them - we need to be as awkward as possible, question Bretts suitability, question current facility use, question the transfer of shares to RFL (I think this was done illegally as prior to any transfer due to insolvency other shareholders would almost always be given the option to purchase the shares at level offered by outside party) question everything basically.
Be interesting if a councilor stood against Brett purely on Dale grounds - sure it would hit his vote but I am sure Rush would give him plenty of backing!!!! |
Well the Trust did manage to get some sort of reaction from Farnell and Brett in Saturdays observer,so the Trust statement was worthwhile.
So why is nobody questioning the accusation that the football club haven't contacted the council regarding the stadium? let's have it right there has been very little coming out of the football club itself publicly regarding this situation and it isn't Hillys job to be highlighliting it.
It's about time the Chairman brought it into the public domain because any neutral reading the observer will come to the conclusion that the Football club are inactive when it comes to any takeover, let's have a reaction. |  | | |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 21:09 - Aug 29 with 1979 views | TVOS1907 |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 20:53 - Aug 29 by TalkingSutty |
Well the Trust did manage to get some sort of reaction from Farnell and Brett in Saturdays observer,so the Trust statement was worthwhile.
So why is nobody questioning the accusation that the football club haven't contacted the council regarding the stadium? let's have it right there has been very little coming out of the football club itself publicly regarding this situation and it isn't Hillys job to be highlighliting it.
It's about time the Chairman brought it into the public domain because any neutral reading the observer will come to the conclusion that the Football club are inactive when it comes to any takeover, let's have a reaction. |
Spot on.
We were all there at the forum and heard one thing. Now, through the Ob, the Council are claiming something else.
Both parties can't be right. |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 21:22 - Aug 29 with 1946 views | Vespa |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 19:19 - Aug 29 by Thacks_Rabbits |
A Rights issue or similar idea would need overall consent of all shareholders - not sure of percentage as Judd states - there is no way they would agree it as it would basically give overall control to Dale.
Good idea though but again it would get nowhere. 1 point I did think about is, bearing in mind Hornets are using the same facilities and have the same rights of use at Spotland (assuming this is correct) is we insist that the rent is the same for both clubs - really start playing hard with them - we need to be as awkward as possible, question Bretts suitability, question current facility use, question the transfer of shares to RFL (I think this was done illegally as prior to any transfer due to insolvency other shareholders would almost always be given the option to purchase the shares at level offered by outside party) question everything basically.
Be interesting if a councilor stood against Brett purely on Dale grounds - sure it would hit his vote but I am sure Rush would give him plenty of backing!!!! |
It's a while since I've seen the relative rent figures but a couple of years ago Hornets were paying £60K per year and the Dale twice as much at £120K but both pay the same per game because Hornets only play half as many home games as the Dale.
Stewarding costs are met by each club directly I believe. | |
| Up the Dale, C'mon Hornets |
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| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 21:30 - Aug 29 with 1934 views | Vespa |
So did the council write off a large debt a few years ago or was it just an empty promise?
If they did was it all the debt the Stadium Co' owed or only part of it?
Would a request under the freedom of information act be appropriate? Could we find out how much the Council owes Denehurst park, or is owed, or have written off?
Does anyone have any experience of making these request, how much does it cost and how long does the council have to respond? | |
| Up the Dale, C'mon Hornets |
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| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 22:49 - Aug 29 with 1835 views | tony_roch975 |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 21:30 - Aug 29 by Vespa |
So did the council write off a large debt a few years ago or was it just an empty promise?
If they did was it all the debt the Stadium Co' owed or only part of it?
Would a request under the freedom of information act be appropriate? Could we find out how much the Council owes Denehurst park, or is owed, or have written off?
Does anyone have any experience of making these request, how much does it cost and how long does the council have to respond? |
FOI requests are free & a reply must be given within 20 working days
email to foi@rochdale.gov.uk
01706 925505
By letter to Information Governance Unit, Number One Riverside, Smith Street, Rochdale OL16 1XU
Problem is asking the right question & there may be issue of confidentiality re RMBC's financial transactions with private company. Surely the Football Club have this info anyway? |  |
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| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 23:12 - Aug 29 with 1813 views | D_Alien |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 22:49 - Aug 29 by tony_roch975 |
FOI requests are free & a reply must be given within 20 working days
email to foi@rochdale.gov.uk
01706 925505
By letter to Information Governance Unit, Number One Riverside, Smith Street, Rochdale OL16 1XU
Problem is asking the right question & there may be issue of confidentiality re RMBC's financial transactions with private company. Surely the Football Club have this info anyway? |
I really don't hold with this confidentiality nonsense.
RMBC don't have any money of their own, they simply administer it on behalf of the population they serve.
If the issue of confidentiality were to arise in dealing with a private company, my first instinct would be to smell a rat.
Perhaps someone could explain to me what benefit you or I gain from any elected member of the council, or anyone who works in an administrative capacity, withholding details of financial transactions carried out on our behalf. For instance, if it's simply to try and gain goods or services at the best rate, how can another company hope to compete if they don't know what that rate is? The only other reasons would be to try and hide inefficiency, or worse. |  |
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| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 00:08 - Aug 30 with 1746 views | Thacks_Rabbits |
Well I am sure the council corruption stories re the tiling of the market are common knowledge - going back years. And the Smith saga being hushed up which was common knowledge in the 60's/70's.
What I find interesting is Hornets made a profit this year apparently - they pay 60k rent, have gate receipts of say 100k a year max, so they only have a 40k income before sponsorship and paying all players, management and other fees etc.
Perhaps Hornets should ground share with the Giggles | |
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| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 06:18 - Aug 30 with 1665 views | R17ALE |
This thread can meander on and on for as long as it wants.
The top and bottom of it all is that Rugby attracts tvvats. All the councillors involved are Rugby tvvats. The Rugby Football League are Rugby tvvats. Hornets are Rugby tvvats.
You can't do legit business with tvvats.
At least bury had the decency to win the FA Cup! |  |
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| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 07:48 - Aug 30 with 1624 views | TalkingSutty |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 06:18 - Aug 30 by R17ALE |
This thread can meander on and on for as long as it wants.
The top and bottom of it all is that Rugby attracts tvvats. All the councillors involved are Rugby tvvats. The Rugby Football League are Rugby tvvats. Hornets are Rugby tvvats.
You can't do legit business with tvvats.
At least bury had the decency to win the FA Cup! |
Got out of bed on the wrong side? Seems i am not the only grumpy barsteward around here. | | | |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 08:08 - Aug 30 with 1611 views | TalkingSutty |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 21:09 - Aug 29 by TVOS1907 |
Spot on.
We were all there at the forum and heard one thing. Now, through the Ob, the Council are claiming something else.
Both parties can't be right. |
To be truthful i don't have much faith in any of the parties involved when it comes to sorting out the stadium saga. The Football Club does have form for letting things meander along in the background and plenty have cited things like the commercial department and little things like changing the fixture board etc.
There are two main reasons why we have a healthy bank balance and that's Keith Hill and Colin Garlic because away from transfer dealings there just doesn't seem to be any dynamic figure pushing the club forward. Apathy seems to rule
It doesn't seem right that the Trust and to a lesser extent the manager are the people who have pushed this into the public domain ( I assume the Trust would have cleared the statement with the club before going public). It should have been the other way around, the club making an official statement and then the Supporters Trust reacting to it, the Trust have now put themselves up to be shot at,lets see if The club back the statement publicly because somewhere along the lines someone is telling lies.
The club must be able to say which councillors they spoke to regarding the stadium so lets get it out in the open. [Post edited 30 Aug 2014 8:19]
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| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 10:10 - Aug 30 with 1506 views | nordenblue |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 06:18 - Aug 30 by R17ALE |
This thread can meander on and on for as long as it wants.
The top and bottom of it all is that Rugby attracts tvvats. All the councillors involved are Rugby tvvats. The Rugby Football League are Rugby tvvats. Hornets are Rugby tvvats.
You can't do legit business with tvvats.
At least bury had the decency to win the FA Cup! |
Thats rather tvvatist young man | | | |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 10:22 - Aug 30 with 1490 views | TVOS1907 |
| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 07:48 - Aug 30 by TalkingSutty |
Got out of bed on the wrong side? Seems i am not the only grumpy barsteward around here. |
Hope he doesn't flounce off the board in protest.
Everything he says is 100% correct, though. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Trust statement: Spotland Stadium on 10:37 - Aug 30 with 1470 views | mikehunt |
God I want out of this unholy alliance. It was trouble brewing from the very outset back to when we allowed Hornets to ground share. And underlined when the millions they got from the Athletic Grounds sale "vanished".
We need our own place. I don't want anything to do with rugby.
I now do not trust anybody in this saga. One of the biggest questions to my mind, is why no one challenged the, so called, illegal sale of Hornets' shares to the RFL at the time. Everyone on here expressed their concern. The current mess stems from that IMHO . |  |
| The worm of time turns not for the cuckoo of circumstance. |
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