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The (Art) Rooney rule 16:21 - Oct 1 with 5926 viewspioneer

Sir Trevor Brooking OBE, MBE on the Rooney rule:

"I don't see why you shouldn't have three black coaches in the final shortlist if they're the best"

The rooney rule doesn't limit shortlists to one token visible minority, it limits it to being more than zero - so much for his 10 O levels - where they all in technical drawing?

"Some black coaches say they're not given a chance but I do think a lot of them have to get themselves in that position. There is a reluctance from people sometimes and they feel it should be handed to them."

And I thought Thatcher was dead - clearly her ideas aren't. Fortunately he is no longer at the FA, but I suspect his feelings remain within the establishment. It is attitudes like this that have held back football in England for so long.

Mind you he is from Barking.
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The (Art) Rooney rule on 16:47 - Oct 1 with 3508 viewsD_Alien

I know I shouldn't, but here goes:

What have "Thatcher's ideas" got to do with Trevor Brooking or the Rooney rule?

One of her ideas was that anyone who was good enough, whatever their background, should be given a chance. She herself was an example of that, when facing prejudice from the male Tory establishment of the time.

It's incredibly lazy thinking to just quote "Thatcher's ideas" in defence of something you THINK you know something about, but don't.

Poll: What are you planning to do v Newport

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The (Art) Rooney rule on 16:55 - Oct 1 with 3474 viewsSuddenLad

The (Art) Rooney rule on 16:47 - Oct 1 by D_Alien

I know I shouldn't, but here goes:

What have "Thatcher's ideas" got to do with Trevor Brooking or the Rooney rule?

One of her ideas was that anyone who was good enough, whatever their background, should be given a chance. She herself was an example of that, when facing prejudice from the male Tory establishment of the time.

It's incredibly lazy thinking to just quote "Thatcher's ideas" in defence of something you THINK you know something about, but don't.


Precisely this. Skin colour is irrelevant. Football managers or coaches will get jobs if they show they are suitable for whichever position they apply. If they are good enough, they will get the job.

What won't happen, is a club appointing a manager or coach, BECAUSE he's black and that's the difference.

Ability will ensure the right man gets the job regardless of anything else. Long may that be the case.

“It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled”

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The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:01 - Oct 1 with 3457 viewsYorkshire_Dale

Thatchers got nothing to do with it.......she was a grocer's lass who made good.... . not Handed it on a plate like society expects today.

Get real........I see Garth Crooks is crowing about it again as per.

Cream rising to the top and all that!
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The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:03 - Oct 1 with 3455 viewspioneer

The (Art) Rooney rule on 16:47 - Oct 1 by D_Alien

I know I shouldn't, but here goes:

What have "Thatcher's ideas" got to do with Trevor Brooking or the Rooney rule?

One of her ideas was that anyone who was good enough, whatever their background, should be given a chance. She herself was an example of that, when facing prejudice from the male Tory establishment of the time.

It's incredibly lazy thinking to just quote "Thatcher's ideas" in defence of something you THINK you know something about, but don't.


"I do think a lot of them have to get themselves in that position"

Its the old tale of they are not succeeding because they are not trying as hard as me - everyone has the same chance to succeed. That was the Thatcher mantra.

Unfortunately we don't all face the same opportunities for success in life - she had a comfortable middle class upbringing with a family with the resources to support and encourage her (probably not unlike Sir Trevor).

Its an attitude that has its roots in the US - its called the American dream - and that is what it is - a dream.

Fortunately Rooney realised that this was never going to change the face of NFL management and coaching. He was a visionary and a leader who wanted to change the world he operated in. Incidentally his organisation, the Pittsburgh Steelers have had three head coaches in the last 40 years (and have won more Superbowls than any other organisation). If you take a look at their current playing staff you will notice that the vast majority of their players have never played with another team. And al this in a city that has lost the vast majority of its industrial base and faced major economic problems.

Now what exactly has Sir Trevor done to change the world he operated in?
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The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:05 - Oct 1 with 3449 viewsBrierls

Why should a shortlist have one or more black managers name on it? It is reverse discrimination. If a manager is good enough he/she will get an opportunity and hold onto a managerial job, regardless of the colour of their skin.

Off the top of my head, I can think of Paul Ince, Chris Hughton, Chris Powell, Chris Kiwomya & Terry O'Connor. How many of those would you class as a good managers? How many of those would you be happy with if Dale appointed them? I wouldn't want any of them at Dale, not because of the colour of their skin, but because of their managerial record and ability to manage on a shoestring budget.

What next? A campaign for more black swimmers? Or maybe more white sprinters? It's bonkers.
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The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:10 - Oct 1 with 3432 viewspioneer

The (Art) Rooney rule on 16:55 - Oct 1 by SuddenLad

Precisely this. Skin colour is irrelevant. Football managers or coaches will get jobs if they show they are suitable for whichever position they apply. If they are good enough, they will get the job.

What won't happen, is a club appointing a manager or coach, BECAUSE he's black and that's the difference.

Ability will ensure the right man gets the job regardless of anything else. Long may that be the case.


"What won't happen, is a club appointing a manager or coach, BECAUSE he's black and that's the difference"


That is not the Rooney rule! It requires there be a least one visible minority be included in the list of candidates to be interviewed, it doesn't say one must be appointed, it doesn't say there must be an equal number of minorities as non minorities to be interviewed. So it is not depriving any white anglo saxon candidate from making the interview list. Its says there must be an opportunity for a minority to be considered at the stage of interviews.

What have we to fear? We might find a good manager that looks different than all the others?
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The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:15 - Oct 1 with 3418 viewsSuddenLad

The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:03 - Oct 1 by pioneer

"I do think a lot of them have to get themselves in that position"

Its the old tale of they are not succeeding because they are not trying as hard as me - everyone has the same chance to succeed. That was the Thatcher mantra.

Unfortunately we don't all face the same opportunities for success in life - she had a comfortable middle class upbringing with a family with the resources to support and encourage her (probably not unlike Sir Trevor).

Its an attitude that has its roots in the US - its called the American dream - and that is what it is - a dream.

Fortunately Rooney realised that this was never going to change the face of NFL management and coaching. He was a visionary and a leader who wanted to change the world he operated in. Incidentally his organisation, the Pittsburgh Steelers have had three head coaches in the last 40 years (and have won more Superbowls than any other organisation). If you take a look at their current playing staff you will notice that the vast majority of their players have never played with another team. And al this in a city that has lost the vast majority of its industrial base and faced major economic problems.

Now what exactly has Sir Trevor done to change the world he operated in?


Nothing whatsoever to do with 'not trying as hard as me'. That's claptrap.

It's about being at least as capable, if not more so, than the other people vying for the same position or seeking the same employment opportunity. Simple as that.

“It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled”

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The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:21 - Oct 1 with 3406 viewsRotherhamDale

If their CV is good enough, they make the shortlist.

Nobody should have special privileges, whether they're part of an ethnic minority, or white British like the majority IMO.
[Post edited 1 Oct 2014 17:21]

Possession with progression.

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The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:26 - Oct 1 with 3398 viewsBrierls

The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:10 - Oct 1 by pioneer

"What won't happen, is a club appointing a manager or coach, BECAUSE he's black and that's the difference"


That is not the Rooney rule! It requires there be a least one visible minority be included in the list of candidates to be interviewed, it doesn't say one must be appointed, it doesn't say there must be an equal number of minorities as non minorities to be interviewed. So it is not depriving any white anglo saxon candidate from making the interview list. Its says there must be an opportunity for a minority to be considered at the stage of interviews.

What have we to fear? We might find a good manager that looks different than all the others?


If a club has a shortlist of ten, a potential candidate would lose out because one of the ten must be black. If said black manager was good enough, then they'd be on the shortlist already!

A shortlist should be made up of the best available candidates, not 90% of the best available candidates, plus 10% token candidates to satisfy a ridiculous notion that somebody should get preferential treatment because of the colour of their skin.
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The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:31 - Oct 1 with 3391 viewspioneer

The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:05 - Oct 1 by Brierls

Why should a shortlist have one or more black managers name on it? It is reverse discrimination. If a manager is good enough he/she will get an opportunity and hold onto a managerial job, regardless of the colour of their skin.

Off the top of my head, I can think of Paul Ince, Chris Hughton, Chris Powell, Chris Kiwomya & Terry O'Connor. How many of those would you class as a good managers? How many of those would you be happy with if Dale appointed them? I wouldn't want any of them at Dale, not because of the colour of their skin, but because of their managerial record and ability to manage on a shoestring budget.

What next? A campaign for more black swimmers? Or maybe more white sprinters? It's bonkers.


About as many of them as I would consider good managers from among the following

Coleman, Eyre, Barrow, Buckley, Ferguson, Joyce, . . .need I go on?

Now from your list

At the moment we don't need a manager at Rochdale. However Ince, Hughton and Powell have all had success (promotion, trophies, manager of the month awards) and often with teams not used to success - so I would be delighted to have them included as candidates for any future position at Rochdale. Out of our long list of managers only two have ever got us promotion.

Kiwomya and O'Connor didn't have enough time to make a proper assessment of them and like some of the others when they were sacked it was usually following appointments at teams already in disarray (Blackburn, Blackpool, Wolves etc).
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The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:43 - Oct 1 with 3365 viewsAlbert_Whitehurst

Who are all these top managers in football that are constantly overlooked because of their colour???

Crooks is a nauseating fat cünt who hasn't played, managed or achieved anything in the modern era because he is a nauseating fat cünt.
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The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:45 - Oct 1 with 3360 viewsScunnydale

The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:05 - Oct 1 by Brierls

Why should a shortlist have one or more black managers name on it? It is reverse discrimination. If a manager is good enough he/she will get an opportunity and hold onto a managerial job, regardless of the colour of their skin.

Off the top of my head, I can think of Paul Ince, Chris Hughton, Chris Powell, Chris Kiwomya & Terry O'Connor. How many of those would you class as a good managers? How many of those would you be happy with if Dale appointed them? I wouldn't want any of them at Dale, not because of the colour of their skin, but because of their managerial record and ability to manage on a shoestring budget.

What next? A campaign for more black swimmers? Or maybe more white sprinters? It's bonkers.


Exactly.

Discrimination is wrong whichever way round. Ince in particular has had job after job and failed at - arguably - all but one.

If shortlists have to have at least one black manager on them, why shouldn't they have one Asian too?

This stuff gets my goat because it damages the cause of the people it's trying to help.

Personally, I couldn't give a rat's ass who/what our next manager was, so long as they were good. If Keith Hill was a two-headed lesbian Sri Lankan part-time volleyball player, I'd still be happy as we're playing good football in a way that is pleasing to watch!

No offence to any two-headed lesbian Sri Lankan part-time volleyball players out there..!
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The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:55 - Oct 1 with 3341 viewsColDale

The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:05 - Oct 1 by Brierls

Why should a shortlist have one or more black managers name on it? It is reverse discrimination. If a manager is good enough he/she will get an opportunity and hold onto a managerial job, regardless of the colour of their skin.

Off the top of my head, I can think of Paul Ince, Chris Hughton, Chris Powell, Chris Kiwomya & Terry O'Connor. How many of those would you class as a good managers? How many of those would you be happy with if Dale appointed them? I wouldn't want any of them at Dale, not because of the colour of their skin, but because of their managerial record and ability to manage on a shoestring budget.

What next? A campaign for more black swimmers? Or maybe more white sprinters? It's bonkers.


I would assume that any support for this campaign comes from the percentage of people doing the coaching badges who are black is not reflected in those being shortlisted for positions.

This is far from conclusive but there's been 75 black players to have played for England, out of which six have gone on to be a manager at a club. But I think 43 have retired from playing, so would a return of 6 England internationals out of 43 seem representative of the number of England players who have a go at being a manager?

The 22 at Espana produced 14 manages
The 22 at Italia 1990 produced 9 managers.
The 22 at Euro 96 produced 7 managers.

I suspect the deep rooted issue is more of a old fart mentality in board rooms giving jobs to the same old people over and over again rather than out and out racism. No one would claim that a black manager is inherently going to be worse than a white manager, and I don't think any black manager has ever claimed after being given the sack that a white manager would have been kept on. But the stats do question the opportunities that are being given - even if only at shortlisting level.

Don't think the Rooney rule is the answer, but that doesn't mean the issue isn't there.
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The (Art) Rooney rule on 18:14 - Oct 1 with 3301 viewsBrierls

The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:55 - Oct 1 by ColDale

I would assume that any support for this campaign comes from the percentage of people doing the coaching badges who are black is not reflected in those being shortlisted for positions.

This is far from conclusive but there's been 75 black players to have played for England, out of which six have gone on to be a manager at a club. But I think 43 have retired from playing, so would a return of 6 England internationals out of 43 seem representative of the number of England players who have a go at being a manager?

The 22 at Espana produced 14 manages
The 22 at Italia 1990 produced 9 managers.
The 22 at Euro 96 produced 7 managers.

I suspect the deep rooted issue is more of a old fart mentality in board rooms giving jobs to the same old people over and over again rather than out and out racism. No one would claim that a black manager is inherently going to be worse than a white manager, and I don't think any black manager has ever claimed after being given the sack that a white manager would have been kept on. But the stats do question the opportunities that are being given - even if only at shortlisting level.

Don't think the Rooney rule is the answer, but that doesn't mean the issue isn't there.


I'd be interested to see the stats on FA qualified coaches split by ethnic background. I honestly haven't got a clue if the percentage of black managers employed/previously employed is reflective of the qualified coaches out there.
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The (Art) Rooney rule on 18:21 - Oct 1 with 3283 viewspioneer

The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:43 - Oct 1 by Albert_Whitehurst

Who are all these top managers in football that are constantly overlooked because of their colour???

Crooks is a nauseating fat cünt who hasn't played, managed or achieved anything in the modern era because he is a nauseating fat cünt.


I am glad I generated a civil debate on the matter.

Why dont you tell us what you really think , . . dont hold anything back now.
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The (Art) Rooney rule on 18:33 - Oct 1 with 3259 viewsBrierls

The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:31 - Oct 1 by pioneer

About as many of them as I would consider good managers from among the following

Coleman, Eyre, Barrow, Buckley, Ferguson, Joyce, . . .need I go on?

Now from your list

At the moment we don't need a manager at Rochdale. However Ince, Hughton and Powell have all had success (promotion, trophies, manager of the month awards) and often with teams not used to success - so I would be delighted to have them included as candidates for any future position at Rochdale. Out of our long list of managers only two have ever got us promotion.

Kiwomya and O'Connor didn't have enough time to make a proper assessment of them and like some of the others when they were sacked it was usually following appointments at teams already in disarray (Blackburn, Blackpool, Wolves etc).


You've made my point!

I wouldn't want Coleman, Eyre, Barrow, Buckley, Ferguson or Joyce either. They wouldn't make my shortlist because they are not viable candidates in my opinion, and neither would Ince, Hughton, Powell & Kiwomya for the sane reasoning. Nothing to do with the colour of their skin.

I certainly wouldn't want to miss out on interviewing a promising youth team manager because I have to interview Ince because he's black.
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The (Art) Rooney rule on 18:34 - Oct 1 with 3258 viewspioneer

The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:45 - Oct 1 by Scunnydale

Exactly.

Discrimination is wrong whichever way round. Ince in particular has had job after job and failed at - arguably - all but one.

If shortlists have to have at least one black manager on them, why shouldn't they have one Asian too?

This stuff gets my goat because it damages the cause of the people it's trying to help.

Personally, I couldn't give a rat's ass who/what our next manager was, so long as they were good. If Keith Hill was a two-headed lesbian Sri Lankan part-time volleyball player, I'd still be happy as we're playing good football in a way that is pleasing to watch!

No offence to any two-headed lesbian Sri Lankan part-time volleyball players out there..!


If Keith Hill was a two-headed lesbian Sri Lankan part-time volleyball player he wouldn't have got an interview

It damages the opportunities for the people its trying to help? How come? How has it damaged the opportunities for black coaches in the NFL, Indinapolis Colts and Pittsburgh steelers won superbowls under black coaches, appointed following the Rooney rule implementation. Look at the numbers of blacks now on coaching staffs (including head coaches) in the NFL.

You miss the point with the asian question, if asians make up a substantial proportion of professional footballers I would expect them to be shortlisted for coaching and managerial positions. They don't (and maybe there is a problem there as well), but we do know 'black' players make up a substantial proportion of the football profession in this country.

No team has a limit on the number of people they can interview - so it deprives no white anglo saxon male (like John Coleman) from the opportunity to compete for a position.

Relax, as Roosevelt said you have nothing to fear but fear itself
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The (Art) Rooney rule on 18:39 - Oct 1 with 3235 viewspioneer

The (Art) Rooney rule on 18:33 - Oct 1 by Brierls

You've made my point!

I wouldn't want Coleman, Eyre, Barrow, Buckley, Ferguson or Joyce either. They wouldn't make my shortlist because they are not viable candidates in my opinion, and neither would Ince, Hughton, Powell & Kiwomya for the sane reasoning. Nothing to do with the colour of their skin.

I certainly wouldn't want to miss out on interviewing a promising youth team manager because I have to interview Ince because he's black.


No the point is they were interviewed (and got the job) in most cases without any great track record of success (Coleman and Buckley excepted).

Interview as many promising youth team managers as you want (which in particular were you thinking off, Walter Joyce or Steve Eyre?), just give a minority a chance to be interviewed - evidence suggests we are not very good at that.
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The (Art) Rooney rule on 18:43 - Oct 1 with 3227 viewsScunnydale

The (Art) Rooney rule on 18:34 - Oct 1 by pioneer

If Keith Hill was a two-headed lesbian Sri Lankan part-time volleyball player he wouldn't have got an interview

It damages the opportunities for the people its trying to help? How come? How has it damaged the opportunities for black coaches in the NFL, Indinapolis Colts and Pittsburgh steelers won superbowls under black coaches, appointed following the Rooney rule implementation. Look at the numbers of blacks now on coaching staffs (including head coaches) in the NFL.

You miss the point with the asian question, if asians make up a substantial proportion of professional footballers I would expect them to be shortlisted for coaching and managerial positions. They don't (and maybe there is a problem there as well), but we do know 'black' players make up a substantial proportion of the football profession in this country.

No team has a limit on the number of people they can interview - so it deprives no white anglo saxon male (like John Coleman) from the opportunity to compete for a position.

Relax, as Roosevelt said you have nothing to fear but fear itself


I fear nowt, pet, and I'm not on about the NFL. Plus, I reckon the Steelers coaches won the Superbowl because they were good, not because they were black.

I'll also think that Asians make up a significant proportion of teams in certain countries. Asian countries, mainly. While there are clearly quite a few Asian managers in those leagues, there are also quite a few Asian (Korea/Japan etc) players in European leagues but very few (if any) Asian managers .

Anyway, that's not my point. I was trying to ask why black coaches should be different from others.

I'm also not suggesting there shouldn't be more black managers. I'm very liberal and would love everyone to be equal and for us all to just gosh-darned get along. The problem I have is discrimination, reverse or otherwise.
[Post edited 1 Oct 2014 18:44]
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The (Art) Rooney rule on 18:46 - Oct 1 with 3215 viewsArthurDaley

If you are good enough, Black or White you will get a managers job. Trouble is Black people have a ready made excuse. Its because I am black.
There are hundreds of black players playing all over Europe, yet how many of the teams playing in the vast continent of Europe have black managers.
Also how many black African teams have black managers. I see quite a lot of white managers managing black African national teams. So its not just in the UK.

A large VAT Dave

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The (Art) Rooney rule on 18:49 - Oct 1 with 3203 viewsnordenblue

The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:31 - Oct 1 by pioneer

About as many of them as I would consider good managers from among the following

Coleman, Eyre, Barrow, Buckley, Ferguson, Joyce, . . .need I go on?

Now from your list

At the moment we don't need a manager at Rochdale. However Ince, Hughton and Powell have all had success (promotion, trophies, manager of the month awards) and often with teams not used to success - so I would be delighted to have them included as candidates for any future position at Rochdale. Out of our long list of managers only two have ever got us promotion.

Kiwomya and O'Connor didn't have enough time to make a proper assessment of them and like some of the others when they were sacked it was usually following appointments at teams already in disarray (Blackburn, Blackpool, Wolves etc).


If you'd be delighted to have Ince as manager of rochdale the rest of your points im afraid in my eyes are totally invalid.The bloke is the biggest clueless prick remotely involved in the game still with the biggest bag of McCains on each shoulder you've ever seen.
His first comment when he was at Blackburn was "its nothing about colour but theres not enough black managers in the game," well what is it about then Paul?
Theres not enough in the game as currently chairmen see better options elsewhere regardless of colour
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The (Art) Rooney rule on 18:55 - Oct 1 with 3190 viewsisitme

At the beginning of the last NFL season there were 8 head coaching vacancies available (out of 32 teams) and none were filled by black coaches.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/jan/23/nfl-andy-reid-chiefs-chip-kell

This season there were 7 vacancies and 2 were filled by black coaches, both of whom are former head coaches of previous teams who were fired due to poor performance of their teams. Read into that as you may.

Each NFL team have an offensive and defensive coordinator, as well as many position coaches and deputy position coaches. The best thing it does is provide opportunities for former players, whether they have been successful in the pro game or not. Do well coaching the quarterbacks and then you can progress to offensive coordinator and eventually head coach. Most teams run schemes that allow recently retired players the opportunity to assist a more experienced coach working with a positional grouping. Up and coming coaches get recognised for their ability, not their ethnicity. One criticism of the Rooney Rule in the NFL is that sometimes the same black coaches will get interviewed, just to satisfy the criteria, without them being viewed as a serious candidate.

In football there are not the same opportunities to get noticed as in the NFL. Someone like Hilly or Brendan Rodgers may have cut their teeth as youth team coaches but in football more often or not people will be appointed as a manager without serving their time in other roles within a club.
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The (Art) Rooney rule on 18:57 - Oct 1 with 3178 viewsD_Alien

The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:03 - Oct 1 by pioneer

"I do think a lot of them have to get themselves in that position"

Its the old tale of they are not succeeding because they are not trying as hard as me - everyone has the same chance to succeed. That was the Thatcher mantra.

Unfortunately we don't all face the same opportunities for success in life - she had a comfortable middle class upbringing with a family with the resources to support and encourage her (probably not unlike Sir Trevor).

Its an attitude that has its roots in the US - its called the American dream - and that is what it is - a dream.

Fortunately Rooney realised that this was never going to change the face of NFL management and coaching. He was a visionary and a leader who wanted to change the world he operated in. Incidentally his organisation, the Pittsburgh Steelers have had three head coaches in the last 40 years (and have won more Superbowls than any other organisation). If you take a look at their current playing staff you will notice that the vast majority of their players have never played with another team. And al this in a city that has lost the vast majority of its industrial base and faced major economic problems.

Now what exactly has Sir Trevor done to change the world he operated in?


Fair play to you for coming back with a reply that clearly shows knowledge of what the Rooney Rule is about.

There's another aspect to this though. I sit on interview panels at work. Until recently, it wasn't uncommon for one of the (unsuccessful) interviewees to complain to HR that they'd been unfairly treated, or discriminated against. That led to the introduction of hugely bureaucratic lists of required abilities, each of which had to be scored separately by each member of the panel, so that HR could offset claims of unfairness and potential litigation. After all the scores are totted up, we often end up looking at each other and shaking our heads - none of us would have appointed that person! So it's often not the best candidate who gets the job, but the one who ticks most boxes - and they can be two very different things!

The point I'm getting at is - the more interference with the process of recruitment, the less likely you are to end up with the right man (or woman) for the job. Once you have a "token" candidate on a shortlist, it opens up all sorts of potential pitfalls. First, they almost certainly know they're "token" and so do the panel, so the subtleties of bringing out what might make them the best candidate can get lost in the fog of tokenism.

Hell, they might even be the best candidate but the reverse psychology of thinking they're there to meet a quota can screw their chances!

Poll: What are you planning to do v Newport

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The (Art) Rooney rule on 19:15 - Oct 1 with 3131 viewsrod_leach

The (Art) Rooney rule on 18:46 - Oct 1 by ArthurDaley

If you are good enough, Black or White you will get a managers job. Trouble is Black people have a ready made excuse. Its because I am black.
There are hundreds of black players playing all over Europe, yet how many of the teams playing in the vast continent of Europe have black managers.
Also how many black African teams have black managers. I see quite a lot of white managers managing black African national teams. So its not just in the UK.


They may in fact, have a ready made reason, which is that chairman may shy away from employing black managers because they perceive them to be not as good as white candidates, regardless of if they are or not.
Sometimes positive discrimination helps redress the balance. In the long run it will hopefully not be needed but until that time I'm all for people being given a step up to reach the same level as others to start with.
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The (Art) Rooney rule on 19:47 - Oct 1 with 3061 viewspioneer

The (Art) Rooney rule on 18:57 - Oct 1 by D_Alien

Fair play to you for coming back with a reply that clearly shows knowledge of what the Rooney Rule is about.

There's another aspect to this though. I sit on interview panels at work. Until recently, it wasn't uncommon for one of the (unsuccessful) interviewees to complain to HR that they'd been unfairly treated, or discriminated against. That led to the introduction of hugely bureaucratic lists of required abilities, each of which had to be scored separately by each member of the panel, so that HR could offset claims of unfairness and potential litigation. After all the scores are totted up, we often end up looking at each other and shaking our heads - none of us would have appointed that person! So it's often not the best candidate who gets the job, but the one who ticks most boxes - and they can be two very different things!

The point I'm getting at is - the more interference with the process of recruitment, the less likely you are to end up with the right man (or woman) for the job. Once you have a "token" candidate on a shortlist, it opens up all sorts of potential pitfalls. First, they almost certainly know they're "token" and so do the panel, so the subtleties of bringing out what might make them the best candidate can get lost in the fog of tokenism.

Hell, they might even be the best candidate but the reverse psychology of thinking they're there to meet a quota can screw their chances!


I understand and accept the problems with tokenism, and again that is not what the Rooney rule is about.

If there were no black people in the NFL who were qualified (met the stated criteria) for the job then there would be no reason to have them interviewed.

However given the number of current and former black professional footballers (NFL in US, football in England) that is not a valid argument.

So lets say the Rochdale board say that one of the criteria is established success in taking teams to promotion in the football league, then you would be required to include at least one black manager who met this criteria on your short list (and it would also mean you could not include John Coleman!).

If your criteria was established success within the professional pyramid of football then john could be on the list but you would also have to include at least one black manager with success within the professional pyramid.

No one is telling anyone how many people they can interview, but they have to give a fair crack of the whip to everyone, and that includes other visible minorities IF THEY MEET THE CRITERIA.

Of course there could still be some who wanted to have as a criteria an Andy Murray complexion - but at least that would make their racism explicit.
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