| Hillsborough 18:21 - Apr 26 with 13227 views | electricblue |
Hillsborough verdict of unlawful killing is what families and friends have waited 25 yrs for...
The finger now points at the police but after just watching a report about the verdict and interviews the finger of blame also points at the FA....
Hillsborough was unfit to hold such a high profile game at the time so why did the FA deem it ok to hold such a game!....
So i my eyes dont just point the finger at the Police point it at the FA aswell...... |  |
| My all time favourite Dale player Mr Lyndon Symmonds |
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| Hillsborough on 14:23 - Apr 28 with 1842 views | tony_roch975 |
| Hillsborough on 13:39 - Apr 28 by CamdenDale |
Bang on Rod. That's all there is to it as to what happened on the day. A guy not knowing what to do.
The lying and slurring of fans, a city, a class (us?) by the South Yorkshire police desperate to sidestep and all those quick to rally around according to their own prejudices, esp. The Sun. The refusal to admit the simple facts of what happened. The hiding behind position over all these years. That's what cuts. |
Superb summary. Yes, prejudice against fans, a city and definitely a class. But also the inevitable consequence of Thatcher's actions - bigging up the state's armed militia (for that is what Police are) and giving them massive pay rises & carte blanche to use any (illegal) tactics to defeat, crush and destroy the miners. No wonder the SY Police came to think they were above the law and could make any excuses and tell any lies - even to this week, 27 years later. Prosecuting one or two retired police officers or Sheffield Wednesday's health & safety officer isn't the answer on it's own. They only carried out the orders. |  |
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| Hillsborough on 15:26 - Apr 28 with 1786 views | DorsetDale |
| Hillsborough on 14:23 - Apr 28 by tony_roch975 |
Superb summary. Yes, prejudice against fans, a city and definitely a class. But also the inevitable consequence of Thatcher's actions - bigging up the state's armed militia (for that is what Police are) and giving them massive pay rises & carte blanche to use any (illegal) tactics to defeat, crush and destroy the miners. No wonder the SY Police came to think they were above the law and could make any excuses and tell any lies - even to this week, 27 years later. Prosecuting one or two retired police officers or Sheffield Wednesday's health & safety officer isn't the answer on it's own. They only carried out the orders. |
I am no apologist for thatcher believe you me but to blame her when she (as all puppets) was dancing to the tune of her masters is naïve at best, especially when those directly responsible acted like robots whilst also dancing to the same tune, yet you excuse them because they were following orders?
The real problem is that the State takes away personal responsibility (from employees) if only "you do as we say". That's not good enough. We all have a duty towards each others well being and should act accordingly and not hide in the shadows of authority.
I do agree though that ALL responsible for their (in)actions should face the consequences. | |
| YOU do not have the right to give someone else permission to tell me what I can and can't do. |
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| Hillsborough on 15:31 - Apr 28 with 1779 views | pioneer |
| Hillsborough on 15:26 - Apr 28 by DorsetDale |
I am no apologist for thatcher believe you me but to blame her when she (as all puppets) was dancing to the tune of her masters is naïve at best, especially when those directly responsible acted like robots whilst also dancing to the same tune, yet you excuse them because they were following orders?
The real problem is that the State takes away personal responsibility (from employees) if only "you do as we say". That's not good enough. We all have a duty towards each others well being and should act accordingly and not hide in the shadows of authority.
I do agree though that ALL responsible for their (in)actions should face the consequences. |
She promised the hillsbrough victims' families there would be no cover up - like most politicians' promises it was worthless. | | | |
| Hillsborough on 15:47 - Apr 28 with 1758 views | D_Alien |
| Hillsborough on 15:31 - Apr 28 by pioneer |
She promised the hillsbrough victims' families there would be no cover up - like most politicians' promises it was worthless. |
What then transpired was the Taylor Report - carried out by a senior member of the judiciary, whose members are independent of government.
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/HOM000028060001.html
As a result, safety at football grounds was transformed. What the inquiry failed to detect - obviously - was the extent to which SYPF was guilty of changing written records.
No politician has it within their power to take further action than happened at the time. |  |
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| Hillsborough on 15:55 - Apr 28 with 1735 views | tony_roch975 |
| Hillsborough on 15:47 - Apr 28 by D_Alien |
What then transpired was the Taylor Report - carried out by a senior member of the judiciary, whose members are independent of government.
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/HOM000028060001.html
As a result, safety at football grounds was transformed. What the inquiry failed to detect - obviously - was the extent to which SYPF was guilty of changing written records.
No politician has it within their power to take further action than happened at the time. |
No I'm not excusing them. They should indeed act according to their duty to others and face the consequences but it's not enough to prosecute the foot soldiers, the government ministers, press officers and Sun Editors need to be in the same dock. Never mind not having the power to take further action, politicians (like Thatcher) who stir up hatred of 'others' (like Liverpool fans or miners - indeed the entire working class) knew exactly what they were doing and should face the greatest punishment. | |
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| Hillsborough on 16:05 - Apr 28 with 1710 views | DorsetDale |
| Hillsborough on 15:55 - Apr 28 by tony_roch975 |
No I'm not excusing them. They should indeed act according to their duty to others and face the consequences but it's not enough to prosecute the foot soldiers, the government ministers, press officers and Sun Editors need to be in the same dock. Never mind not having the power to take further action, politicians (like Thatcher) who stir up hatred of 'others' (like Liverpool fans or miners - indeed the entire working class) knew exactly what they were doing and should face the greatest punishment. |
Spot on. Unfortunately, those at the top protect themselves by pushing blame on to others.
The judiciary, politicians, public officers etc.. are servants of the people yet they've managed to have us believe the reverse is true. Not until enough people realise we and not them have the real power nothing will change. | |
| YOU do not have the right to give someone else permission to tell me what I can and can't do. |
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| Hillsborough on 16:07 - Apr 28 with 1703 views | D_Alien |
| Hillsborough on 15:55 - Apr 28 by tony_roch975 |
No I'm not excusing them. They should indeed act according to their duty to others and face the consequences but it's not enough to prosecute the foot soldiers, the government ministers, press officers and Sun Editors need to be in the same dock. Never mind not having the power to take further action, politicians (like Thatcher) who stir up hatred of 'others' (like Liverpool fans or miners - indeed the entire working class) knew exactly what they were doing and should face the greatest punishment. |
Rubbish. Any excuse for Thatcher bashing.
I harbour no excuses for police corruption, and would wish to see those involved in covering up police failings (by having records changed, etc.) punished as severely as the law will allow.
How about punishing those who stir up hatred of politicians? No? You don't like that idea? Works both ways. The country as a whole has the chance to vote politicians out of power. Following the miner's strike, we voted to retain the existing politicans back in - twice. Have a go at the democratic process, why don't you? I've little doubt you'd like to see it replaced by a real tyranny - a socialist republic. | |
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| Hillsborough on 16:13 - Apr 28 with 1681 views | pioneer |
| Hillsborough on 15:47 - Apr 28 by D_Alien |
What then transpired was the Taylor Report - carried out by a senior member of the judiciary, whose members are independent of government.
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/HOM000028060001.html
As a result, safety at football grounds was transformed. What the inquiry failed to detect - obviously - was the extent to which SYPF was guilty of changing written records.
No politician has it within their power to take further action than happened at the time. |
Again she promised there would be no cover up. There was a cover up. End of story. | | | |
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| Hillsborough on 16:23 - Apr 28 with 1663 views | D_Alien |
| Hillsborough on 16:13 - Apr 28 by pioneer |
Again she promised there would be no cover up. There was a cover up. End of story. |
Yep, it was all Thatcher's fault. Where've we heard that before? Police corruption was pretty evident for decades before she became prime minister.
Any excuse for Thatcher-bashing. Carry on. | |
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| Hillsborough on 16:26 - Apr 28 with 1651 views | tony_roch975 |
| Hillsborough on 16:07 - Apr 28 by D_Alien |
Rubbish. Any excuse for Thatcher bashing.
I harbour no excuses for police corruption, and would wish to see those involved in covering up police failings (by having records changed, etc.) punished as severely as the law will allow.
How about punishing those who stir up hatred of politicians? No? You don't like that idea? Works both ways. The country as a whole has the chance to vote politicians out of power. Following the miner's strike, we voted to retain the existing politicans back in - twice. Have a go at the democratic process, why don't you? I've little doubt you'd like to see it replaced by a real tyranny - a socialist republic. |
Glad to see there are still Thatcher apologists in Rochdale. Correct, those who stir up hatred of all politicians just because they are politicians should be condemned - that's prejudice. Those who question, challenge and condemn any individual politician who stirs up hatred (like Thatcher) should be as praised as the Hillsborough Families rightly are being now. See the difference DAlien is that I didn't tar every politician (or even every Tory one) with the same brush - just the ones who deserved the condemnation. You're right, in a first-past-the-post system the Tories in the subsequent 2 elections got more seats than anyone else, even though the majority didn't want them. But the voting system gave them absolute power. So I'm very happy debating this on this forum with you & arguing my views in every possible forum cos that's democracy. But in order to fully represent our views (including those I disagree with like UKIP) we need a PR voting system. Note I haven't condemned you! But, yes I'd like a Republic (I'm a citizen not a servant) & even better if it was socialist, but it wouldn't support tyranny which is why it also wouldn't have supported the destruction of communities, the placing of the Police above the law, the scapegoating of minorities or any other real tyranny. | |
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| Hillsborough on 17:03 - Apr 28 with 1598 views | D_Alien |
| Hillsborough on 16:26 - Apr 28 by tony_roch975 |
Glad to see there are still Thatcher apologists in Rochdale. Correct, those who stir up hatred of all politicians just because they are politicians should be condemned - that's prejudice. Those who question, challenge and condemn any individual politician who stirs up hatred (like Thatcher) should be as praised as the Hillsborough Families rightly are being now. See the difference DAlien is that I didn't tar every politician (or even every Tory one) with the same brush - just the ones who deserved the condemnation. You're right, in a first-past-the-post system the Tories in the subsequent 2 elections got more seats than anyone else, even though the majority didn't want them. But the voting system gave them absolute power. So I'm very happy debating this on this forum with you & arguing my views in every possible forum cos that's democracy. But in order to fully represent our views (including those I disagree with like UKIP) we need a PR voting system. Note I haven't condemned you! But, yes I'd like a Republic (I'm a citizen not a servant) & even better if it was socialist, but it wouldn't support tyranny which is why it also wouldn't have supported the destruction of communities, the placing of the Police above the law, the scapegoating of minorities or any other real tyranny. |
You're presuming - incorrectly - that Thatcher requires apologists.
I didn't read any further than that, so spare me your socialist rants.
[Post edited 28 Apr 2016 17:04]
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| Hillsborough on 17:25 - Apr 28 with 1556 views | CamdenDale |
| Hillsborough on 16:07 - Apr 28 by D_Alien |
Rubbish. Any excuse for Thatcher bashing.
I harbour no excuses for police corruption, and would wish to see those involved in covering up police failings (by having records changed, etc.) punished as severely as the law will allow.
How about punishing those who stir up hatred of politicians? No? You don't like that idea? Works both ways. The country as a whole has the chance to vote politicians out of power. Following the miner's strike, we voted to retain the existing politicans back in - twice. Have a go at the democratic process, why don't you? I've little doubt you'd like to see it replaced by a real tyranny - a socialist republic. |
Dreadfully complacent there D_alien. Panglossian. If it worked like that, why have these people had to campaign for thirty years on this? Against this democracy, this closing of ranks. They only wanted someone to say mea culpa.
Thatcher, and this where it is important, made a scapegoat of football fans. One of her outspoken targets - the game of the dirty undeserving unionised working class.
Where does police corruption come from? Not even getting paid for it ffs. From their 'betters'.
Think again. |  | | |
| Hillsborough on 17:39 - Apr 28 with 1526 views | D_Alien |
| Hillsborough on 17:25 - Apr 28 by CamdenDale |
Dreadfully complacent there D_alien. Panglossian. If it worked like that, why have these people had to campaign for thirty years on this? Against this democracy, this closing of ranks. They only wanted someone to say mea culpa.
Thatcher, and this where it is important, made a scapegoat of football fans. One of her outspoken targets - the game of the dirty undeserving unionised working class.
Where does police corruption come from? Not even getting paid for it ffs. From their 'betters'.
Think again. |
Far from being complacent, I've thought through these arguments backwards, and still find the outcome - the Taylor Report, resulting in the end of the horrific football violence that was the scourge of many a Saturday afternoon (and European evening) a positive one. That was the report commissioned by the Thatcher government, who were dead right to be concerned. English teams were banned from Europe, remember, on the basis of out-of-control, drunken fans. Me, Panglossian? I don't think so.
[Post edited 28 Apr 2016 17:40]
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| Hillsborough on 17:49 - Apr 28 with 1492 views | CamdenDale |
| Hillsborough on 17:39 - Apr 28 by D_Alien |
Far from being complacent, I've thought through these arguments backwards, and still find the outcome - the Taylor Report, resulting in the end of the horrific football violence that was the scourge of many a Saturday afternoon (and European evening) a positive one. That was the report commissioned by the Thatcher government, who were dead right to be concerned. English teams were banned from Europe, remember, on the basis of out-of-control, drunken fans. Me, Panglossian? I don't think so.
[Post edited 28 Apr 2016 17:40]
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So, hang on. I thought we might be starting from the same place. Obv not. You think the outcome of the inquest is plain wrong? | | | |
| Hillsborough on 17:51 - Apr 28 with 983 views | D_Alien |
| Hillsborough on 17:49 - Apr 28 by CamdenDale |
So, hang on. I thought we might be starting from the same place. Obv not. You think the outcome of the inquest is plain wrong? |
That's pretty poor, really.
Read what I've already posted about it earlier in the thread, esp. concerning police corruption. | |
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| Hillsborough on 18:02 - Apr 28 with 954 views | CamdenDale |
| Hillsborough on 17:51 - Apr 28 by D_Alien |
That's pretty poor, really.
Read what I've already posted about it earlier in the thread, esp. concerning police corruption. |
Good grief lad. Good grief.
It's a rotten outlook you've got. High minded and judgmental. IT STINKS FROM HERE! | | | |
| Hillsborough on 18:07 - Apr 28 with 946 views | CamdenDale |
D_Alien thinks we all went to football games in the 80s, probably stinking from booze and general moral weakness, in order to give it a go, might die on the way through not being scrupulous on assessing the safety of the stand. | | | |
| Hillsborough on 18:09 - Apr 28 with 938 views | tony_roch975 |
| Hillsborough on 17:49 - Apr 28 by CamdenDale |
So, hang on. I thought we might be starting from the same place. Obv not. You think the outcome of the inquest is plain wrong? |
Dear Camden, think you & I will just have to accept we've failed with DAlien. He believes in democracy but refuses to read arguments he doesn't like; some are born misunderstood, some achieve misunderstanding and some have it thrust upon them - in DAlien's case it may well be all 3. If you're reading this DAlien, no one was denying that a) football crowds in the 80s had crowd control & violence issues, b) football stadia in the 80's were poorly designed for safety c) The Taylor inquiry eventually led to improvements in spectator conditions & d) the Taylor inquiry was set up by the Thatcher Government BUT THATCHER DID SMEAR ALL FANS, SHE DID BLAME DRUNKEN LIVERPOOL FANS FOR HILLSBOROUGH & THE INQUEST THIS WEEK PROVED SHE WAS WRONG, WRONG, WRONG - get it | |
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| Hillsborough on 18:12 - Apr 28 with 923 views | mingthemerciless |
Those of us with long memories will remember one of the first things the Thatcher Government did when it came to office in1979 was to give the Police, the Army and the Judiciary massive pay rises.
That told me all I needed to know at the time. " Whoever Pays The Piper Calls The Tune ".
Well they paid the pipers and they certainly called the tune.
Of course once they'd served their purpose they are no longer as necessary as they were.
That's why the Tories now feel able to freeze police wages and Teresa May feels able to arrange to boot out the South Yorkshire Chief Constable. | | | |
| Hillsborough on 18:15 - Apr 28 with 907 views | CamdenDale |
| Hillsborough on 18:09 - Apr 28 by tony_roch975 |
Dear Camden, think you & I will just have to accept we've failed with DAlien. He believes in democracy but refuses to read arguments he doesn't like; some are born misunderstood, some achieve misunderstanding and some have it thrust upon them - in DAlien's case it may well be all 3. If you're reading this DAlien, no one was denying that a) football crowds in the 80s had crowd control & violence issues, b) football stadia in the 80's were poorly designed for safety c) The Taylor inquiry eventually led to improvements in spectator conditions & d) the Taylor inquiry was set up by the Thatcher Government BUT THATCHER DID SMEAR ALL FANS, SHE DID BLAME DRUNKEN LIVERPOOL FANS FOR HILLSBOROUGH & THE INQUEST THIS WEEK PROVED SHE WAS WRONG, WRONG, WRONG - get it |
Tony, you're the man. | | | |
| Hillsborough on 18:18 - Apr 28 with 901 views | D_Alien |
| Hillsborough on 18:09 - Apr 28 by tony_roch975 |
Dear Camden, think you & I will just have to accept we've failed with DAlien. He believes in democracy but refuses to read arguments he doesn't like; some are born misunderstood, some achieve misunderstanding and some have it thrust upon them - in DAlien's case it may well be all 3. If you're reading this DAlien, no one was denying that a) football crowds in the 80s had crowd control & violence issues, b) football stadia in the 80's were poorly designed for safety c) The Taylor inquiry eventually led to improvements in spectator conditions & d) the Taylor inquiry was set up by the Thatcher Government BUT THATCHER DID SMEAR ALL FANS, SHE DID BLAME DRUNKEN LIVERPOOL FANS FOR HILLSBOROUGH & THE INQUEST THIS WEEK PROVED SHE WAS WRONG, WRONG, WRONG - get it |
Don't be too hard on yourself, or Camden; you haven't failed. I'm incorruptible. | |
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| Hillsborough on 18:20 - Apr 28 with 888 views | CamdenDale |
| Hillsborough on 18:18 - Apr 28 by D_Alien |
Don't be too hard on yourself, or Camden; you haven't failed. I'm incorruptible. |
What you are is a tit. | | | |
| Hillsborough on 18:24 - Apr 28 with 871 views | D_Alien |
| Hillsborough on 18:12 - Apr 28 by mingthemerciless |
Those of us with long memories will remember one of the first things the Thatcher Government did when it came to office in1979 was to give the Police, the Army and the Judiciary massive pay rises.
That told me all I needed to know at the time. " Whoever Pays The Piper Calls The Tune ".
Well they paid the pipers and they certainly called the tune.
Of course once they'd served their purpose they are no longer as necessary as they were.
That's why the Tories now feel able to freeze police wages and Teresa May feels able to arrange to boot out the South Yorkshire Chief Constable. |
Yep, your first sentence is indisputable, and the rationale pretty accurate.
What I do dispute is the pathetic attempt to put Thatcher in the frame for the events at Hillsborough. The police may well have felt able to distort their records in the aftermath, but that was absolutely nothing new - their methods for covering their tracks started much earlier and were by and large ignored by successive governments from the 1960's onwards.
Shame that these events have to be distorted by Thatcher-bashers, though. | |
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| Hillsborough on 18:26 - Apr 28 with 866 views | D_Alien |
| Hillsborough on 18:20 - Apr 28 by CamdenDale |
What you are is a tit. |
Cool.
I'd rather be a tit than a socialist. | |
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