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Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 08:41 - Jun 17 by EllGazzell
In that case, what would be a modern government? The post which 1Mark1 was replying to clearly said that leave campaigners want "a new, modern Britain with a modern government and society that reflects this".
I keep hearing "we want our democracy back!"
Well the British version of democracy in it's current form is hardly a shining light IMHO. Un-elected Lords dictating what laws will be allowed based on their will.
This can be seen in all it's glory with the blood sports bans:
Dog, cock fighting - non gentry - prohibited in 1895 Fox hunting - very gentry - finally 2004
Nope, not for me, not a modern method of democracy.
The point I was making is that if you believe there is a democratic deficit in having an unelected second chamber (I do by the way), that is not just incumbent upon the leave campaign but on both sides.
The point around democracy here is that arguably the further away from directly electing the lawmakers you are the less democratic that is. Adding in layers of EU governance on top of the elected UK government who have the power to supercede UK lawmaking creates a situation of increased democratic deficiency.
Even if the UK votes to remain we still have the defecit (in democratic terms) of an unelected second chamber - therefore I think it's unfair to pillory one side of the debate when it's something incumbent on both sides.
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Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 10:02 - Jun 17 with 3842 views
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 09:01 - Jun 17 by HK_Dale
The point I was making is that if you believe there is a democratic deficit in having an unelected second chamber (I do by the way), that is not just incumbent upon the leave campaign but on both sides.
The point around democracy here is that arguably the further away from directly electing the lawmakers you are the less democratic that is. Adding in layers of EU governance on top of the elected UK government who have the power to supercede UK lawmaking creates a situation of increased democratic deficiency.
Even if the UK votes to remain we still have the defecit (in democratic terms) of an unelected second chamber - therefore I think it's unfair to pillory one side of the debate when it's something incumbent on both sides.
I an not sure whether reform of the House of Lords and the electoral system is particularly a Brexit or remain question. It is really one for us to decide whether we are in or out (on the assumption that this is still allowed if we stay in). However, picking up on an earlier post, I thought the powers of the House of Lords had been quite restricted by the Parliament Acts so it is not true to say that it decides what laws get passed:
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 08:17 - Jun 17 by HK_Dale
Your first point has no relevance to leave or remain, and is a strawman argument, picking up on one aspect (modern government) that has been mentioned.
You aren't going to get either camp pushing for an elected second chamber and head of state as part of the referendum discussion - so it's not a burden on the leave campaign to do so.
It's relevant because the post to which I replied to mentioned it, and I was simply asking the question of the Brexit supporter what form it would take. I accept that I have not heard from any of the official campaigns about it, and I never said it had.
Am I alone in thinking that the break in referendum campaigning - though the reason is horrendous - has come as a blessed relief? I suspect not.
Speeches that were due to be made have been cancelled, and it might actually have done those making them a favour. We've all heard enough. Let's just vote now.
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 15:12 - Jun 17 by D_Alien
Am I alone in thinking that the break in referendum campaigning - though the reason is horrendous - has come as a blessed relief? I suspect not.
Speeches that were due to be made have been cancelled, and it might actually have done those making them a favour. We've all heard enough. Let's just vote now.
I for one welcome the cancellation of the campaining as I am heartily sick of the lies and scaremongering from both sides, the reason for or the cancellation is tragic and sickening. Let's hope this is an isolated incident, the sooner this vote is concluded the better....
I got a letter over a week ago, from Jeremy Corbyn. Someone said he was the leader of the labour party. So I thought I would send him an e mail.
I got a letter today from Jeremy. I was expecting to read about one of the most important issues, that concern the British people. True to form it was not mentioned.
IMMIGRATION. Jeremy just like call me dave is lacking in moral fibre when it comes to this issue. And many more issues. Can you please send me the Labour party manifesto on Immigration.
Please can you tell me how the EU has benefited our fishing, coal & steel industries. (Yes yes I know what fishing coal and steel industries )
I agree that our coming out of the EU will cost jobs, in Germany Italy France and a lot of other places that wont trade with us when we come out of the EU.
If they wont buy our goods they wont want to sell us their cars or other things will they ?
I suspect Jeremy just like call me dave, will be totally gutless when looking after the interest of Britain.
When we come out of the EU, and the Scott's start whinging again, are you in favour of giving the English a vote on Scotland to piss off from the rest of the UK.
VOTE OUT OUT OUT
Strangely I haven't had a reply, the lad must be busy. A lot of people in Europe are like the British completely pissed of with the EU. So when Britain votes to leave the EU, a lot of people in a lot of country's will want a vote on weather to stay in the EU, if they all vote out the whole rotten structure could come crashing down. What a legacy for call me dave, the man who destroyed the EU.
A large VAT Dave
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Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 21:18 - Jun 17 with 3420 views
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 19:22 - Jun 17 by ArthurDaley
I got a letter over a week ago, from Jeremy Corbyn. Someone said he was the leader of the labour party. So I thought I would send him an e mail.
I got a letter today from Jeremy. I was expecting to read about one of the most important issues, that concern the British people. True to form it was not mentioned.
IMMIGRATION. Jeremy just like call me dave is lacking in moral fibre when it comes to this issue. And many more issues. Can you please send me the Labour party manifesto on Immigration.
Please can you tell me how the EU has benefited our fishing, coal & steel industries. (Yes yes I know what fishing coal and steel industries )
I agree that our coming out of the EU will cost jobs, in Germany Italy France and a lot of other places that wont trade with us when we come out of the EU.
If they wont buy our goods they wont want to sell us their cars or other things will they ?
I suspect Jeremy just like call me dave, will be totally gutless when looking after the interest of Britain.
When we come out of the EU, and the Scott's start whinging again, are you in favour of giving the English a vote on Scotland to piss off from the rest of the UK.
VOTE OUT OUT OUT
Strangely I haven't had a reply, the lad must be busy. A lot of people in Europe are like the British completely pissed of with the EU. So when Britain votes to leave the EU, a lot of people in a lot of country's will want a vote on weather to stay in the EU, if they all vote out the whole rotten structure could come crashing down. What a legacy for call me dave, the man who destroyed the EU.
And the UK . I can't see either of Scotland and Wales wanting to come out.
What next matey, independence for lLancashire, home rule for Greater Manchester ?
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Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 21:38 - Jun 17 with 3404 views
The problem is the the Uk population are never given a voice when we enter into these arrangements. Ted Heaths torys took us into the EEC, a trading organisation, without consulting the population and John Majors Torys took us into Maastricht when the nature of the organisation changed from one about trade to one about political union, again without consulting the UK population.
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 10:19 - Jun 18 by R17ALE
You're not called James Wagg are you?
No. I'm not a massive fan of the EU but I can't see much point in leaving the big ship to all get in our own little life boats and start rowing in different directions.
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Brexit or not. How will you vote? (n/t) on 14:31 - Jun 18 with 3195 views
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 13:47 - Jun 18 by mingthemerciless
No. I'm not a massive fan of the EU but I can't see much point in leaving the big ship to all get in our own little life boats and start rowing in different directions.
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Brexit or not. How will you vote? (n/t) on 17:26 - Jun 18 with 3129 views
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 09:51 - Jun 24 by R17ALE
Not sure what this poll now tells us, but Rochdale voted 60 - 40 to leave, as did virtually most of the NW.
Will we still be allowed to enter the Eurovision song contest? On a less serious note the Premiership may have to stop signing over paid imports past their sell by date to the benefit of British born players.
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Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 16:41 - Jun 24 with 2726 views
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 16:14 - Jun 24 by BigKindo
Will we still be allowed to enter the Eurovision song contest? On a less serious note the Premiership may have to stop signing over paid imports past their sell by date to the benefit of British born players.
Re The Eurovision Song Contest - probably but why we still bother entering I don't know. It would be a blessing if they'd banned us.
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Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 18:21 - Jun 24 with 2656 views
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 16:14 - Jun 24 by BigKindo
Will we still be allowed to enter the Eurovision song contest? On a less serious note the Premiership may have to stop signing over paid imports past their sell by date to the benefit of British born players.
A pleasing spin off from voting out is that I doubt we'll even be invited to enter, ever again.
Anyway, points are only awarded according to a country's popularity with others, and the UK is very unpopular in Europe right now. We'd be getting minus points from Germany and Luxembourg.
It also is imperative we win the Euros now to ensure we can take part in 2020 as holders.
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 18:21 - Jun 24 by R17ALE
A pleasing spin off from voting out is that I doubt we'll even be invited to enter, ever again.
Anyway, points are only awarded according to a country's popularity with others, and the UK is very unpopular in Europe right now. We'd be getting minus points from Germany and Luxembourg.
It also is imperative we win the Euros now to ensure we can take part in 2020 as holders.
So in the morning will it be legal to call breakfast 'a full English' instead of 'a full European'?
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Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 21:15 - Jun 24 with 2546 views
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 19:28 - Jun 24 by BigKindo
So in the morning will it be legal to call breakfast 'a full English' instead of 'a full European'?
Yep. Chocolate logs, fizzers, Black Jacks, Flying Saucers, Potato Puffs, Curly Wurllies and full sized Waggon Wheels are all back on the agenda. It's been an historic day, a day for doing a bit of donkey stoning.
#wecandowhatthe*uckwewantnow.
[Post edited 24 Jun 2016 21:19]
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Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 12:58 - Jun 25 with 2416 views
Well,at least everybody`s vote counted,IN or Out,not like the general election where winners rarely get over 50% of the whole vote. Clearly this was a chance for the pissed off industrial parts of the UK to tell Cameron and his millionaire mates to go f*ck themselves,but the sad part is,the same old beaurocrats and government hangers on in London will still be running the country.
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Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 14:14 - Jun 25 with 2382 views
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 12:58 - Jun 25 by DiddyDave
Well,at least everybody`s vote counted,IN or Out,not like the general election where winners rarely get over 50% of the whole vote. Clearly this was a chance for the pissed off industrial parts of the UK to tell Cameron and his millionaire mates to go f*ck themselves,but the sad part is,the same old beaurocrats and government hangers on in London will still be running the country.
Only now they and their friends in the foreign non UK tax paying owned press, won't be able to blame the EU. So now they will have to blame "lazy workers", and others from the working class.
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 14:14 - Jun 25 by 1mark1
Only now they and their friends in the foreign non UK tax paying owned press, won't be able to blame the EU. So now they will have to blame "lazy workers", and others from the working class.
Blame for what, though?
There's no such thing as the working class, not now.
It's evolved into the mythical "working man" beloved of political rhetoric - aren't we all working men, and women?
We need to move on from the old class barriers. Chips on shoulders weigh people down.
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 14:58 - Jun 25 by D_Alien
Blame for what, though?
There's no such thing as the working class, not now.
It's evolved into the mythical "working man" beloved of political rhetoric - aren't we all working men, and women?
We need to move on from the old class barriers. Chips on shoulders weigh people down.
Or am i being a childish prat?
[Post edited 25 Jun 2016 15:00]
For anything that might be going wrong, economically, jobs, immigration, NHS, public services, anything really, that at the moment some blame on the EU.
Well I still class myself proudly as working class, and many more do. Nothing to do with "chips on shoulders ", but to do with reality of the class system we still have. We can move on when we do have a situation when there is no poor, and when all are living in a decent lifestyle, and where up you are born is not dependent on how your health is going to be, how well educated you are going to be etc, etc, and I am talking about the majority.
Nothing childish, in believing what you say, if that's what you believe.
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 15:25 - Jun 25 by 1mark1
For anything that might be going wrong, economically, jobs, immigration, NHS, public services, anything really, that at the moment some blame on the EU.
Well I still class myself proudly as working class, and many more do. Nothing to do with "chips on shoulders ", but to do with reality of the class system we still have. We can move on when we do have a situation when there is no poor, and when all are living in a decent lifestyle, and where up you are born is not dependent on how your health is going to be, how well educated you are going to be etc, etc, and I am talking about the majority.
Nothing childish, in believing what you say, if that's what you believe.
You've got me thinking 1mark1. You'll probably be able to smell burning!
You are proud working class you state, but you believe - rightly - that you wish to be able to climb the class system which you say we still have.
You then suggest a higher wage and a decent lifestyle are the markers of moving away from being working class.
I've no truck with any of that, but my question is, how is class measured? Where is the line over which you can cross from being working class to I presume middle class? Is class a league table?
And if you were to achieve your ambitions and live a decent lifestyle - and I hope you do - against who will you then measure your achievements? In football terms big clubs are only big because clubs like ours survive. Without the Dales of this world there would be no big clubs. Likewise, without the Premier League clubs we would not know that we are a small club.
I hope my logic doesn't appear skewed, and I'm not having a go at all. Just curious to see how you choose to measure class and the poor.
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