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I didn't ask you to prove anything. I asked you for your reasons why I was talking rubbish. I suppose you could consider it asking for proof. I consider it asking you for a coherent, substantive argument why it was rubbish. So come on, why in your opinion is it rubbish?
The Road to World War on 13:27 - Mar 19 by Catullus
I didn't ask you to prove anything. I asked you for your reasons why I was talking rubbish. I suppose you could consider it asking for proof. I consider it asking you for a coherent, substantive argument why it was rubbish. So come on, why in your opinion is it rubbish?
"I suppose you could consider it asking for proof."
Thank you for that good faith admission.
Unfortunately the US market has just opened and I am going to be busy for a few hours.
WRAPUP 2-Russian forces storm Ukraine base in Crimea, US sees "dark path" to isolation
19 Mar 2014 - 13:44 (Adds U.S., Lithuanian reaction) Russian forces storm Ukrainian naval HQ in Sevastopol Biden warns Russia is on "dark path" to isolation No shots fired in tense operation Russia says OSCE has exhausted military inspections By Aleksandar Vasovic and Maria Kiselyova SEVASTOPOL/MOSCOW, March 19 (Reuters) — The United States warned Moscow it was on a "dark path" to isolation on Wednesday after Russian troops backed by unarmed volunteers stormed Ukraine's naval headquarters in the Crimean port of Sevastopol and raised their flag. The dramatic seizure came as Russia and the West dug in for a long confrontation over Moscow's annexation of Crimea, with the United States and Europe groping for ways to increase pressure on a defiant Russian President Vladimir Putin. "As long as Russia continues on this dark path, they will face increasing political and economic isolation," said U.S. Vice President Joe Biden, referring to reports of armed attacks against Ukrainian military personnel in Crimea. Biden was in the Lithuanian capital Vilnius, part of a quick trip to reassure Baltic allies worried about what an emboldened, aggressive Russia might mean for their nations. Lithuania, along with Estonia and Latvia, are NATO members. "There is an attempt, using brutal force, to redraw borders of the European states and to destroy the post-war architecture of Europe," Lithuanian President Dalia Grybauskaite said. The United Nations said Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon will push for a peaceful solution to the crisis when he meets Putin in Moscow on Thursday and when he travels to Kiev on Friday. Russian lawmakers raced to ratify a treaty making the Ukrainian region part of Russia by the end of the week, despite threats of further sanctions from Washington and Brussels. The Russian military moved swiftly to neutralise any threat of armed resistance in Crimea. [ID:nL6N0MG1GU] "This morning they stormed the compound. They cut the gates open, but I heard no shooting," said Oleksander Balanyuk, a captain in the navy, walking out of the compound in his uniform and carrying his belongings. "This thing should have been solved politically. Now all I can do is stand here at the gate. There is nothing else I can do," he told Reuters, appearing ashamed and downcast. Ukrainian military spokesman Vladislav Seleznyov said the commander of the Ukrainian navy, Admiral Serhiy Haiduk, was driven away by what appeared to be Russian special forces. Mixed Feelings Russia sent thousands of soldiers to Crimea in the buildup to a weekend referendum in which the Russian-majority region voted overwhelmingly to leave Ukraine and join Moscow, reflecting national loyalties and hopes of higher wages. But there is unease among pro-Ukrainian Crimeans who have complained about the heavy armed presence across the region. "I was born here, my family is here, I have a job here and I am not going anywhere unless there is an all-out military conflict," said Viktor, a 23-year-old salesman. "It is my home but things will not be the same any more." A few hundred metres away, the local authorities attached new, Russian letters spelling "State Council of the Crimean Republic" on the building of the local assembly. Putin said his move to annex Crimea was justified by "fascists" in Kiev who overthrew pro-Moscow president Viktor Yanukovich after deadly street protests last month. Ukraine and Western governments have dismissed the referendum as a sham, and say there is no justification for Putin's actions. Yanukovich enraged many Ukrainians by turning his back on closer ties with Europe to sign agreements on economic integration with former Soviet overlord Russia. Germany Makes Move Germany's cabinet approved EU plans for closer political cooperation with Ukraine, a government source said, clearing the way for Chancellor Angela Merkel to sign part of a so-called association agreement at an EU summit later this week. The 28-member bloc is expected to sign a more far-reaching trade accord with Ukraine later. But maintaining aggressive rhetoric reminiscent of the Cold War, Russia accused Western states of violating a pledge to respect Ukraine's sovereignty and political independence under a 1994 security assurance agreement, saying they had "indulged a coup d'etat" that ousted Yanukovich. Moscow, which has said it will retaliate for so far largely symbolic Western sanctions targeting Russian officials, announced on Wednesday it was closing its military facilities to a European security watchdog for the rest of the year. The Russian Defence Ministry was quoted as saying the signatories of a 2011 Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe agreement had exhausted their quotas to inspect Russian military facilities and a planned inspection in the coming days would be the last. [ID:nL6N0MG0UM] Further Sanctions? Biden said in Warsawon Tuesday the United States may run more ground and naval military exercises to help Baltic states near Russia beef up their capacity after what he called Putin's "land grab" in Ukraine. The Truxtun, a U.S. guided-missile destroyer started a one-day military exercise with the Bulgarian and Romanian navies in the Black Sea on Wednesday, a U.S. Naval Forces official said. Washington and Brussels said further sanctions would follow the visa bans and asset freezes imposed so far on a handful of Russian and Crimean officials, drawing derision from Moscow. On a visit to Japan, which has joined the Western chorus of condemnation of Moscow's action, close Putin ally Igor Sechin, CEO of Russian oil major Rosneft <ROSN.MM>, said expanding sanctions would only aggravate the crisis. European Union leaders will consider widening the number of people targeted by personal sanctions when they hold a regular summit in Thursday and Friday, diplomats said, as well as signing the political part of an association agreement with Ukraine's interim government. EU officials say they have identified more than 100 potential targets. Some media reports say Sechin and the head of Russian gas monopoly Gazprom <GAZP.MM> are on the wider list. But some EU officials are wary of moving too fast towards much tougher sanctions, both due to the risk of self-inflicted injury to Europe's convalescent economy and out of concern not to exhaust the West's toolbox of non-military measures. France has said it is considering suspending a contract to supply two helicopter carriers to the Russian military, the first of which is due to be delivered later this year. French officials say they expect Britain, in return, to close its gates and bank vaults to oligarchs close to Putin. In a rousing patriotic speech to Russian lawmakers denouncing what he called the West's hypocrisy and double standards, Putin said on Tuesday that Crimea was historically Russian and was returning home. After signing a treaty to make the Ukrainian region part of the Russian Federation, he told a flag-waving rally in Red Square beneath the Kremlin walls, near where Soviet politburo leaders once took the salute at May Day parades, that Crimea has returned to "home port". (Additional reporting by Mike Collett-White and Gabriela Baczynska in Simferopol and Elizabeth Piper and Steve Gutterman in Moscow; Writing by Mike Collett-White; editing by Anna Willard) ((paul.taylor@thomsonreuters.com)(+33149495187)(Reuters Messaging: paul.taylor.thomsonreuters.com@reuters.net) (For more news on Ukraine, click [ID:nL6N0MD0X7]) Keywords: UKRAINE CRISIS/
Well that was a quick couple of hours...what happened the Dow Jones crash?
Ok round 4
There are no good guys in this east or west.
For the US and EU to think they can impose punitive economic sanctions or Russia is laughable.
Russia could easily turn the tables and destroy the fragile economies of both and they know this.
The first thing they would do is combine with their trading partners not to use the US dollar as the worlds reserve currency for buying and selling.
This would quickly contribute to the collapse of the dollar and cause mass panic on the worl markets.
In short there is nothing the west can do now except give some sharp words and rhetoric.... The opportunity has gone Crimea ain t coming back unless they come and take it back by force...
PROUD RECIPIENT OF THE THIRD PLANET SWANS LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD.
"Per ardua ad astra"
I don't believe I said the Dow was going to crash, LB, merely that I thought a bear market might be starting, and the chances of that happening increased somewhat when the markets did what I expected them to do yesterday
IF that continues news worthy crashes should then follow into the summer, although there is now the potential for some nastiness heading into a technical event known as a quarterly triple witching on Friday when futures, equity options, and index options all expire.
The only thing I am a relieved about is that the news spark that drove yesterday's reversal was US monetary policy, as opposed to war; for me profiteering remains a dirty word, despite the fact that it appears widely celebrated these days as a badge of business acumen.
- Crimea 'self defence' militia on Wednesday stormed Ukrainian military facilities - Moscow has approved annexation of strategic peninsula - EU leaders meeting in Brussels to discuss response to Russian seizure of Crimea - Splits have emerged in Europe over whether annexation should trigger sanctions - Barack Obama has ruled out military intervention in Ukraine - Ukraine plans war games with US and UK though no confirmation from London
So I think the heat is off,Russia will get away with it and it will die down...for the time being...
Come out from under the tables now boys and girls.....lol
PROUD RECIPIENT OF THE THIRD PLANET SWANS LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD.
"Per ardua ad astra"
The Road to World War on 10:46 - Mar 20 by Lord_Bony
LATEST UPDATE...IT S GONNA BE OK!
- Crimea 'self defence' militia on Wednesday stormed Ukrainian military facilities - Moscow has approved annexation of strategic peninsula - EU leaders meeting in Brussels to discuss response to Russian seizure of Crimea - Splits have emerged in Europe over whether annexation should trigger sanctions - Barack Obama has ruled out military intervention in Ukraine - Ukraine plans war games with US and UK though no confirmation from London
So I think the heat is off,Russia will get away with it and it will die down...for the time being...
Come out from under the tables now boys and girls.....lol
Over here Fox News are willing for the US to take more stronger action . They are saying Obama is weak and is encouraging the Russians the take more land. A few armchair Generals are itching for World War 3!
"I suppose you could consider it asking for proof."
Thank you for that good faith admission.
Unfortunately the US market has just opened and I am going to be busy for a few hours.
Back later.
So you have no coherent, substantive reasons why then?
As far as it goes I do believe a war has started. It's a war of words, of economic sanctions but not a military war.
About 15 minutes ago I watched a report from the EU (Barroso) who said the EU and member states should consider what further sanctions could be imposed. The U.S has imposed further sanctions on individuals close to Putin.
That's the thing about the 21st century. A war these days doesn't have to mean military action. A lot of common perception about what a war is, is outdated.Cyber war is just as potent as guns and bullets these days.
As Lord Bony points out, how much sanctions will affect Russia is hard to say. And there's the possibility that Russia tries the same on the West, also with hard to determine outcomes.
Could see cameron doing this if scotland win the reffarendum. He will invade with hague as his puppet.
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The Road to World War on 09:36 - Mar 21 with 814 views
The Road to World War on 03:39 - Mar 21 by Catullus
So you have no coherent, substantive reasons why then?
As far as it goes I do believe a war has started. It's a war of words, of economic sanctions but not a military war.
About 15 minutes ago I watched a report from the EU (Barroso) who said the EU and member states should consider what further sanctions could be imposed. The U.S has imposed further sanctions on individuals close to Putin.
That's the thing about the 21st century. A war these days doesn't have to mean military action. A lot of common perception about what a war is, is outdated.Cyber war is just as potent as guns and bullets these days.
As Lord Bony points out, how much sanctions will affect Russia is hard to say. And there's the possibility that Russia tries the same on the West, also with hard to determine outcomes.
Yes if theres any justice in this then Abramovich should be put in jail with the rest of the Russian oliogarchs. and Chelseas assets seized and sold off...that ll teach them for going into Crimea.
Abramovich was welcomed here on the back of his dodgy billions made from his dodgy mafia dealings in energy companies in Russia.
Bring it on please....
PROUD RECIPIENT OF THE THIRD PLANET SWANS LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD.
"Per ardua ad astra"
The Road to World War on 03:39 - Mar 21 by Catullus
So you have no coherent, substantive reasons why then?
As far as it goes I do believe a war has started. It's a war of words, of economic sanctions but not a military war.
About 15 minutes ago I watched a report from the EU (Barroso) who said the EU and member states should consider what further sanctions could be imposed. The U.S has imposed further sanctions on individuals close to Putin.
That's the thing about the 21st century. A war these days doesn't have to mean military action. A lot of common perception about what a war is, is outdated.Cyber war is just as potent as guns and bullets these days.
As Lord Bony points out, how much sanctions will affect Russia is hard to say. And there's the possibility that Russia tries the same on the West, also with hard to determine outcomes.
The problem is that your theory remains a conspiracy theory, and I have already set out a large part of the counter-argument regarding historicism in reply to LB.
What I haven't expounded on in detail is the practical problems faced by your would be conspirators, in getting a number of disparate European countries to agree on a move to destabilise the Ukraine, when they can barely agree on a common agricultural policy. It is just not serious.
I have to say you also let yourself badly down when you say "Cyber war is just as potent as guns and bullets these days. "
One is where you are prevented from visiting Facebook or maybe facing a power cut, and the other where you are killed, maimed, etc.. Simply absurd and actually somewhat disgusting hyperbole, and not something I care to discuss further.
The Road to World War on 17:53 - Apr 15 by oh_tommy_tommy
They keep poking the bear with a big stick .
Crazy stuff.
Today could be the day that future generations look back on as the day it all escalated.
Eleven Soldiers killed in an attempt to regain an airport today. I didn't think it would come to this. I thought that Crimea would join Russia and that would be it. It looks like Putin wants the whole country.
The problem is that your theory remains a conspiracy theory, and I have already set out a large part of the counter-argument regarding historicism in reply to LB.
What I haven't expounded on in detail is the practical problems faced by your would be conspirators, in getting a number of disparate European countries to agree on a move to destabilise the Ukraine, when they can barely agree on a common agricultural policy. It is just not serious.
I have to say you also let yourself badly down when you say "Cyber war is just as potent as guns and bullets these days. "
One is where you are prevented from visiting Facebook or maybe facing a power cut, and the other where you are killed, maimed, etc.. Simply absurd and actually somewhat disgusting hyperbole, and not something I care to discuss further.
You think cyber war is about Facebook and power cuts? You absolute idiot. The next generation of warships have minimal crews and be run by computer. If a cyber terrorist managed to hack a nuclear capable vessel he could unleash hell. Governments are turning more and more to cyber capabilities. China has been doing it for years. Computers are at the heart of our society. Those clever enough can cause chaos if they ever breach the right systems.
I see the media and political narrative is still firmly in "poor, downtrodden Ukrainians defending themselves against big nasty Russia" mode. Conveniently ignoring the neo-nazis running Kiev and the coup they organised to oust the legitimate (if completely c*nty) government.
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