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WRU-Regions Farce 16:11 - Jul 14 with 3544 viewsshandyjack

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/28286510

Warburton was very badly advised here
[Post edited 14 Jul 2014 16:11]

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WRU-Regions Farce on 12:53 - Jul 20 with 802 viewsSlugster664

WRU-Regions Farce on 11:24 - Jul 20 by trampie

Its best if the joking regions are allowed to die, so they can be replaced with proper bona fide regions overseen by the governing body just like the Irish have got.

Welsh rugby should not be held to ransom by just 4 rebellious clubs, the union is made up of about 300 clubs and those clubs should not suffer due to the failings of the super clubs.


Now here's one gentleman who knows eff all about Welsh rugby and regions. Why do you think the regions have been fighting for extra funding? One reason being that grass root rugby is appallingly underfunded. Who do you think oversaw the running of the regions? This was the WRU.

If Welsh rugby carried on as it were, pre-2003,the national side would be struggling to compete with the like of Russia, Germany etc.

The WRU has been holding back on funds so that they can pay the MS off quicker, with clubs/regions taking the hit. Lewis is a disgrace. He's destroying Welsh rugby and will get a huge bonus for his efforts.

People like yourself need to open your eyes and realise that regions need proper funding to compete with the rest of Europe. Strong regions, keeping Welsh players in Wales is how it should be.

With Lewis in the driving seat Welsh rugby is doomed.

STID

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WRU-Regions Farce on 12:58 - Jul 20 with 790 viewsJackfath

WRU-Regions Farce on 12:53 - Jul 20 by Slugster664

Now here's one gentleman who knows eff all about Welsh rugby and regions. Why do you think the regions have been fighting for extra funding? One reason being that grass root rugby is appallingly underfunded. Who do you think oversaw the running of the regions? This was the WRU.

If Welsh rugby carried on as it were, pre-2003,the national side would be struggling to compete with the like of Russia, Germany etc.

The WRU has been holding back on funds so that they can pay the MS off quicker, with clubs/regions taking the hit. Lewis is a disgrace. He's destroying Welsh rugby and will get a huge bonus for his efforts.

People like yourself need to open your eyes and realise that regions need proper funding to compete with the rest of Europe. Strong regions, keeping Welsh players in Wales is how it should be.

With Lewis in the driving seat Welsh rugby is doomed.


Why did they all give him an overwhelming vote of confidence recently?

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WRU-Regions Farce on 13:09 - Jul 20 with 780 viewstrampie

WRU-Regions Farce on 12:53 - Jul 20 by Slugster664

Now here's one gentleman who knows eff all about Welsh rugby and regions. Why do you think the regions have been fighting for extra funding? One reason being that grass root rugby is appallingly underfunded. Who do you think oversaw the running of the regions? This was the WRU.

If Welsh rugby carried on as it were, pre-2003,the national side would be struggling to compete with the like of Russia, Germany etc.

The WRU has been holding back on funds so that they can pay the MS off quicker, with clubs/regions taking the hit. Lewis is a disgrace. He's destroying Welsh rugby and will get a huge bonus for his efforts.

People like yourself need to open your eyes and realise that regions need proper funding to compete with the rest of Europe. Strong regions, keeping Welsh players in Wales is how it should be.

With Lewis in the driving seat Welsh rugby is doomed.


Extra funding you say Slugster664 ?

The wru is a not for profit organisation, they might keep a little for a rainy day but they reinvest their money into the likes of the grassroots game, age grade rugby and infrastructure projects.

The joking regions are independent businesses and if they can't stand on their own two feet then they should be allowed to die, the union should not give them anymore money than the union can afford, the union should not give them money at the expense of others or stopping paying the mortgage [on one of the greatest stadiums in the world] just to bail out the four super clubs that are failures both on and off the pitch.

If we had union controlled proper regions and not Newport this and Cardiff that with teams playing in their old club colours and if we had central contracts [not just one] and kept tight control on the amount of foreign players then perhaps Welsh teams would compete in Europe and having proper regions instead of super clubs we in Wales would have a larger fanbase to attract larger crowds.
Proper regions would be more attractive to sponsors also, Llanelli is still a town isn't it ?, Neath-Swansea and Llanelli dropping their town/city names has come too late, everybody knows who they are and lots of fans will not support a rival team.
[Post edited 20 Jul 2014 13:21]

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WRU-Regions Farce on 13:31 - Jul 20 with 760 viewsmax936

WRU-Regions Farce on 13:09 - Jul 20 by trampie

Extra funding you say Slugster664 ?

The wru is a not for profit organisation, they might keep a little for a rainy day but they reinvest their money into the likes of the grassroots game, age grade rugby and infrastructure projects.

The joking regions are independent businesses and if they can't stand on their own two feet then they should be allowed to die, the union should not give them anymore money than the union can afford, the union should not give them money at the expense of others or stopping paying the mortgage [on one of the greatest stadiums in the world] just to bail out the four super clubs that are failures both on and off the pitch.

If we had union controlled proper regions and not Newport this and Cardiff that with teams playing in their old club colours and if we had central contracts [not just one] and kept tight control on the amount of foreign players then perhaps Welsh teams would compete in Europe and having proper regions instead of super clubs we in Wales would have a larger fanbase to attract larger crowds.
Proper regions would be more attractive to sponsors also, Llanelli is still a town isn't it ?, Neath-Swansea and Llanelli dropping their town/city names has come too late, everybody knows who they are and lots of fans will not support a rival team.
[Post edited 20 Jul 2014 13:21]


The Regions were the brainchild of the WRU, so its the Unions fault they are failing, they left the door open and more of less welcomed the money men in so the blame lies directly at the WRU's door.
[Post edited 21 Jul 2014 22:03]

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WRU-Regions Farce on 13:35 - Jul 20 with 756 viewspansypants

The regions in terms of attendances are poorly supported. The sell outs are for when they play each other and they happen to be at xmas. The Easter meetings are now at the Stadiwm

The fan base is dropping quicker than the funds.

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WRU-Regions Farce on 13:38 - Jul 20 with 753 viewsDarran

WRU-Regions Farce on 13:31 - Jul 20 by max936

The Regions were the brainchild of the WRU, so its the Unions fault they are failing, they left the door open and more of less welcomed the money men in so the blame lies directly at the WRU's door.
[Post edited 21 Jul 2014 22:03]


Don't be ridiculous the clubs shouldn't be expecting hand outs right left and centre.
The Premier League was the the brainchild of the FA but you don't see clubs asking the FA for hand outs.
The clubs should be managing their own finances and if they can't afford top players to compete in Europe so be it that should be the way every other team sport works.

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WRU-Regions Farce on 13:42 - Jul 20 with 750 viewspansypants

The reality is that rugby club/ regional financiers in Wales are piss poor compared to other countries.

A well known fact is that Harlequins have 14 millionaires on their board......how many millionaires are there in the whole of Wales?

Saracens must have overtaken Harlequins by now

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WRU-Regions Farce on 13:53 - Jul 20 with 738 viewsmax936

WRU-Regions Farce on 13:38 - Jul 20 by Darran

Don't be ridiculous the clubs shouldn't be expecting hand outs right left and centre.
The Premier League was the the brainchild of the FA but you don't see clubs asking the FA for hand outs.
The clubs should be managing their own finances and if they can't afford top players to compete in Europe so be it that should be the way every other team sport works.


Read my post again you silly boy, the money men were welcomed in by the WRU and they have messed the job up, look at the players that were brought in at the start and payed to dollar, but the regions didn't have the income to sustain it and thats why they're in the shit now and why the likes of Cuddy, Gallagher and Peter Pies have pulled out, the Clubs Neath, Swansea, Cardiff, Llanelli, Ponty were very well supported back in the day, but most didn't/wouldn't accept the concept of Regions that the WRU created.

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WRU-Regions Farce on 13:59 - Jul 20 with 733 viewsDarran

WRU-Regions Farce on 13:53 - Jul 20 by max936

Read my post again you silly boy, the money men were welcomed in by the WRU and they have messed the job up, look at the players that were brought in at the start and payed to dollar, but the regions didn't have the income to sustain it and thats why they're in the shit now and why the likes of Cuddy, Gallagher and Peter Pies have pulled out, the Clubs Neath, Swansea, Cardiff, Llanelli, Ponty were very well supported back in the day, but most didn't/wouldn't accept the concept of Regions that the WRU created.


So if the money men have pulled out the clubs should cut their cloth accordingly.

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WRU-Regions Farce on 14:11 - Jul 20 with 721 viewsperchrockjack

As I've stated before rugby is now professional.it needs money to fund players.best players best salaries.crowds not big enough.
Therefore need for millionaire involvement.saracens a rugby nonentity, have one therefore they survive.toulon, also billionaire meaning best players.wales is dirt poor therefore no millionaires.swans haven't got one. Wales and the welsh are often too keen to squabble and miss the big picture

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WRU-Regions Farce on 14:12 - Jul 20 with 719 viewsmax936

WRU-Regions Farce on 13:59 - Jul 20 by Darran

So if the money men have pulled out the clubs should cut their cloth accordingly.


Of course mun, but the damage has been done, so they can't afford to move forward, without decimating their squads to badly although it is happening with most of the Welsh squad players moving, because the wages are not there anymore, Players centrally funded must be the way forward, at least in the short term, which might make the Regions more competitive.

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WRU-Regions Farce on 14:16 - Jul 20 with 713 viewsQuakerJack

WRU-Regions Farce on 17:45 - Jul 14 by Jackistentialist

They should never have regionalised Welsh rugby to begin with... Club rugby games used to consistently get 5,000 + spectators, even at smaller places like Pontypridd... now they're lucky to get a couple of hundred. On top of that they removed the Bridgend/Pontypridd region (even though more Welsh international players have come out of Bridgend County Borough than any other region in Wales).

Utterly mad bunch of know-it-all blazer wearing old boys and professional marketing w*nkers who are getting what they deserve...
[Post edited 14 Jul 2014 17:46]


What he said.

We would probably see the same situation of player exodus because of the money, but more players would come through and because of the rich and proud history of the clubs, fans would still flock to games.

My love for domestic Rugby died the day someone took my beloved All Blacks and shunted them together with our rivals, stuck an Osprey in front of the maltese cross, moved the team to Swansea and removed top class rugby from the town where the decadent WRU was formed.

I feel for Pontypridd, Bridgend, club rugby brought these towns and their communities together on a Saturday afternoon, those days have sadly gone. I'd give anything to see them return, to stand on a packed shed and hear that "NEATH NEATH NEATH" chant again.

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WRU-Regions Farce on 14:16 - Jul 20 with 710 viewsperchrockjack

It's also the case we can't go back to how things were

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WRU-Regions Farce on 14:19 - Jul 20 with 709 viewsmax936

WRU-Regions Farce on 14:16 - Jul 20 by QuakerJack

What he said.

We would probably see the same situation of player exodus because of the money, but more players would come through and because of the rich and proud history of the clubs, fans would still flock to games.

My love for domestic Rugby died the day someone took my beloved All Blacks and shunted them together with our rivals, stuck an Osprey in front of the maltese cross, moved the team to Swansea and removed top class rugby from the town where the decadent WRU was formed.

I feel for Pontypridd, Bridgend, club rugby brought these towns and their communities together on a Saturday afternoon, those days have sadly gone. I'd give anything to see them return, to stand on a packed shed and hear that "NEATH NEATH NEATH" chant again.


Good post. Regions have failed miserably, mainly because of greed.

The buck stops at the WRU door in Westgate Street.

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WRU-Regions Farce on 15:43 - Jul 20 with 682 viewsSlugster664

WRU-Regions Farce on 12:58 - Jul 20 by Jackfath

Why did they all give him an overwhelming vote of confidence recently?


The board had the vote of confidence, not Lewis.

I presume the reason being, they were thinking the grass isn't always greener

My thinking is though, the chairmen at these clubs are on nice little earners and get their tickets for Welsh games through Lewis (free of charge) plus all the other little niceties that come with it.

The problem most Welsh rugby fans have (the guy on here saying how rubbish regions are etc etc) is they don't like change. They're quite happy watching these small clubs playing other small clubs at poxy grounds, whilst getting smashed out their brains. Oh yes, then hopefully going to a international game and hopefully, yes hopefully, maybe getting a decent performance against England! I'm presuming the Welsh successes since regionalism was due to the hard work of the clubs, not the regions???

I think Darran mentioned that the FA don't give 'handouts' to the clubs, no they don't. But they make sure the sponsorship of the league they play in is paying top dollar. What do the WRU give the regions? S4C and BBC bloody Wales

STID

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WRU-Regions Farce on 15:59 - Jul 20 with 667 viewsSlugster664

WRU-Regions Farce on 13:09 - Jul 20 by trampie

Extra funding you say Slugster664 ?

The wru is a not for profit organisation, they might keep a little for a rainy day but they reinvest their money into the likes of the grassroots game, age grade rugby and infrastructure projects.

The joking regions are independent businesses and if they can't stand on their own two feet then they should be allowed to die, the union should not give them anymore money than the union can afford, the union should not give them money at the expense of others or stopping paying the mortgage [on one of the greatest stadiums in the world] just to bail out the four super clubs that are failures both on and off the pitch.

If we had union controlled proper regions and not Newport this and Cardiff that with teams playing in their old club colours and if we had central contracts [not just one] and kept tight control on the amount of foreign players then perhaps Welsh teams would compete in Europe and having proper regions instead of super clubs we in Wales would have a larger fanbase to attract larger crowds.
Proper regions would be more attractive to sponsors also, Llanelli is still a town isn't it ?, Neath-Swansea and Llanelli dropping their town/city names has come too late, everybody knows who they are and lots of fans will not support a rival team.
[Post edited 20 Jul 2014 13:21]


I do agree with some things you mention, but not alot.

You say they reinvest money into grassroots rugby, then why are some clubs in Wales so skint? A woman was telling me her son played for Bonymaen (u-16 I think) To go on tour last year they had to do lots of events to raise money to go. When they got there it was an embarrassment! The kit they played in was 2-3 years old, different coloured socks/shorts. The other team (Cornwall I think she said they went) looked totally professional, nice new kit, tracksuits, kit bags etc etc All with sponsorship! I bet now you're going to say this club obviously don't handle their finances very well

Listen, when the players are on central contacts who will replace that player for the region when he's on international duty?

STID

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WRU-Regions Farce on 16:10 - Jul 20 with 663 viewsmax936

WRU-Regions Farce on 15:43 - Jul 20 by Slugster664

The board had the vote of confidence, not Lewis.

I presume the reason being, they were thinking the grass isn't always greener

My thinking is though, the chairmen at these clubs are on nice little earners and get their tickets for Welsh games through Lewis (free of charge) plus all the other little niceties that come with it.

The problem most Welsh rugby fans have (the guy on here saying how rubbish regions are etc etc) is they don't like change. They're quite happy watching these small clubs playing other small clubs at poxy grounds, whilst getting smashed out their brains. Oh yes, then hopefully going to a international game and hopefully, yes hopefully, maybe getting a decent performance against England! I'm presuming the Welsh successes since regionalism was due to the hard work of the clubs, not the regions???

I think Darran mentioned that the FA don't give 'handouts' to the clubs, no they don't. But they make sure the sponsorship of the league they play in is paying top dollar. What do the WRU give the regions? S4C and BBC bloody Wales


WRU relied on the Money men doing the job of acquiring self sustaining income, which they have clearly failed in doing, lack of support is one, attaining good enough sponsorship another reason, but lack of proper management and greed are the main factors for me.

The regions don't want centrall contracts because it takes away their control, but they want more money off the WRU, not only do they want their cake, but they want to eat it as well, their threat of stopping Welsh playing playing outside the IRB calender is laughable as there are very few squad members left playing for the regions.
[Post edited 21 Jul 2014 22:06]

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WRU-Regions Farce on 21:51 - Jul 21 with 606 viewscyril

WRU-Regions Farce on 13:09 - Jul 20 by trampie

Extra funding you say Slugster664 ?

The wru is a not for profit organisation, they might keep a little for a rainy day but they reinvest their money into the likes of the grassroots game, age grade rugby and infrastructure projects.

The joking regions are independent businesses and if they can't stand on their own two feet then they should be allowed to die, the union should not give them anymore money than the union can afford, the union should not give them money at the expense of others or stopping paying the mortgage [on one of the greatest stadiums in the world] just to bail out the four super clubs that are failures both on and off the pitch.

If we had union controlled proper regions and not Newport this and Cardiff that with teams playing in their old club colours and if we had central contracts [not just one] and kept tight control on the amount of foreign players then perhaps Welsh teams would compete in Europe and having proper regions instead of super clubs we in Wales would have a larger fanbase to attract larger crowds.
Proper regions would be more attractive to sponsors also, Llanelli is still a town isn't it ?, Neath-Swansea and Llanelli dropping their town/city names has come too late, everybody knows who they are and lots of fans will not support a rival team.
[Post edited 20 Jul 2014 13:21]


Let me tell you of a little tale from some time back, it involved an age grade wales u18s rugby trip to holland I think, well on this little jaunt there was a squad of 25 players, and low and behold number of wru hangers on and they're wives, total number I think was 27 limpets, now then cast your mind back to the amateur era when the old cardiff arms park was in full voice there must have been 60'000 people in there a couple of times a year, now tell me in those amateur days what happened to all the loot, and mate for as long as I can remember them plumbs at the wru have consistently made wales the laughing stock of world rugby, they themselves almost bankrupted welsh rugby with the building of the ms, and tbf the regions didn't help themselves throwing money around like confetti on journeyman players, there is a model that works well not far away in Ireland, but we can't sort this out, I don't trust the wru and I don't trust the regions, but I think both sides need to grow up, because it's highly embarrassing and is making us a laughing stock yet again, the two should get in an office shut the door and don't come out until it's sorted, childish morons

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WRU-Regions Farce on 22:06 - Jul 21 with 593 viewstrampie

WRU-Regions Farce on 21:51 - Jul 21 by cyril

Let me tell you of a little tale from some time back, it involved an age grade wales u18s rugby trip to holland I think, well on this little jaunt there was a squad of 25 players, and low and behold number of wru hangers on and they're wives, total number I think was 27 limpets, now then cast your mind back to the amateur era when the old cardiff arms park was in full voice there must have been 60'000 people in there a couple of times a year, now tell me in those amateur days what happened to all the loot, and mate for as long as I can remember them plumbs at the wru have consistently made wales the laughing stock of world rugby, they themselves almost bankrupted welsh rugby with the building of the ms, and tbf the regions didn't help themselves throwing money around like confetti on journeyman players, there is a model that works well not far away in Ireland, but we can't sort this out, I don't trust the wru and I don't trust the regions, but I think both sides need to grow up, because it's highly embarrassing and is making us a laughing stock yet again, the two should get in an office shut the door and don't come out until it's sorted, childish morons


Yes we need to follow the Irish model, bona fide regions, central contracts, overseen by the Governing body the full works.

It goes without saying there should be nobody on the gravy train.

The stadium will be paid for in a few years, its one of the best stadiums in the world, the four super clubs [everybody knows they are not regions] don't own their own grounds, it will be better for the game in Wales if the joking regions are allowed to die, you can't do deals with rugby terrorists, 5 years we will be back on our feet and we might even challenge in Europe.

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WRU-Regions Farce on 22:22 - Jul 21 with 585 viewsmax936

WRU-Regions Farce on 21:51 - Jul 21 by cyril

Let me tell you of a little tale from some time back, it involved an age grade wales u18s rugby trip to holland I think, well on this little jaunt there was a squad of 25 players, and low and behold number of wru hangers on and they're wives, total number I think was 27 limpets, now then cast your mind back to the amateur era when the old cardiff arms park was in full voice there must have been 60'000 people in there a couple of times a year, now tell me in those amateur days what happened to all the loot, and mate for as long as I can remember them plumbs at the wru have consistently made wales the laughing stock of world rugby, they themselves almost bankrupted welsh rugby with the building of the ms, and tbf the regions didn't help themselves throwing money around like confetti on journeyman players, there is a model that works well not far away in Ireland, but we can't sort this out, I don't trust the wru and I don't trust the regions, but I think both sides need to grow up, because it's highly embarrassing and is making us a laughing stock yet again, the two should get in an office shut the door and don't come out until it's sorted, childish morons


Good post Cyril, bang on.

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WRU-Regions Farce on 22:23 - Jul 21 with 584 viewsmax936

WRU-Regions Farce on 22:06 - Jul 21 by trampie

Yes we need to follow the Irish model, bona fide regions, central contracts, overseen by the Governing body the full works.

It goes without saying there should be nobody on the gravy train.

The stadium will be paid for in a few years, its one of the best stadiums in the world, the four super clubs [everybody knows they are not regions] don't own their own grounds, it will be better for the game in Wales if the joking regions are allowed to die, you can't do deals with rugby terrorists, 5 years we will be back on our feet and we might even challenge in Europe.


They've become that way because of a lack of control from the WRU mun, the WRU formed the Regions and allowed the money men to rip the heart out of the concept before it had a chance and that is the reason its in the state its in now.

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WRU-Regions Farce on 22:25 - Jul 21 with 583 viewsSlugster664

WRU-Regions Farce on 22:06 - Jul 21 by trampie

Yes we need to follow the Irish model, bona fide regions, central contracts, overseen by the Governing body the full works.

It goes without saying there should be nobody on the gravy train.

The stadium will be paid for in a few years, its one of the best stadiums in the world, the four super clubs [everybody knows they are not regions] don't own their own grounds, it will be better for the game in Wales if the joking regions are allowed to die, you can't do deals with rugby terrorists, 5 years we will be back on our feet and we might even challenge in Europe.


I really don't get what you're saying. You want regions but not be called Ospreys, Scarlets etc etc? Overseen by a governing body? Surely the WRU been 'doing' this? 4 super clubs? I understand what you say about the turks blues and dragons, but surely Swansea, Neef, Aberavon and Bridgend are involved there?

Do you think that in 2003 they should have just said, Swansea Cardiff Newport Turks, you be the 4 super clubs and you help yourselves to the top players around your area?

STID

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WRU-Regions Farce on 22:45 - Jul 21 with 573 viewstrampie

WRU-Regions Farce on 22:25 - Jul 21 by Slugster664

I really don't get what you're saying. You want regions but not be called Ospreys, Scarlets etc etc? Overseen by a governing body? Surely the WRU been 'doing' this? 4 super clubs? I understand what you say about the turks blues and dragons, but surely Swansea, Neef, Aberavon and Bridgend are involved there?

Do you think that in 2003 they should have just said, Swansea Cardiff Newport Turks, you be the 4 super clubs and you help yourselves to the top players around your area?


We should have proper regions, no names like Cardiff this and Newport that, no club colours and the odd game should be taken around the region.

Ponty fans won't watch Cardiff, Ebbw and Pooler fans won't watch Newport, some Wizards fans won't watch the Neath-Swansea enterprise although they have now dropped the name, lots of fans from second class teams will not watch the super clubs as they seem them as rival clubs, proper regions just like they have across the world would be a different matter as everybody would feel included, the fan base would be far bigger than what it is now.
[Post edited 21 Jul 2014 22:46]

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WRU-Regions Farce on 08:54 - Jul 22 with 532 viewsQuakerJack

WRU-Regions Farce on 22:45 - Jul 21 by trampie

We should have proper regions, no names like Cardiff this and Newport that, no club colours and the odd game should be taken around the region.

Ponty fans won't watch Cardiff, Ebbw and Pooler fans won't watch Newport, some Wizards fans won't watch the Neath-Swansea enterprise although they have now dropped the name, lots of fans from second class teams will not watch the super clubs as they seem them as rival clubs, proper regions just like they have across the world would be a different matter as everybody would feel included, the fan base would be far bigger than what it is now.
[Post edited 21 Jul 2014 22:46]


Agree.

The identities of the old clubs are the reason this didn't work.

This should have included central contracts and a shorter, sharper season, not a long drawn out one like the Celtic league. The rest of the time you spend playing for your affiliated club, this happens in NZ, a country with a similar sized population and playing base as Wales.

This was something the Irish provinces were clamouring for, when it didn'thappen they ccontinued to rest big players for the Heineken, which they wouldn't have needed to do had the season been half as long as it is. So early interest in the league disappeared because there was no relegation, no european qualification and half the teams were B sides.

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WRU-Regions Farce on 13:40 - Jul 22 with 500 viewscyril

WRU-Regions Farce on 08:54 - Jul 22 by QuakerJack

Agree.

The identities of the old clubs are the reason this didn't work.

This should have included central contracts and a shorter, sharper season, not a long drawn out one like the Celtic league. The rest of the time you spend playing for your affiliated club, this happens in NZ, a country with a similar sized population and playing base as Wales.

This was something the Irish provinces were clamouring for, when it didn'thappen they ccontinued to rest big players for the Heineken, which they wouldn't have needed to do had the season been half as long as it is. So early interest in the league disappeared because there was no relegation, no european qualification and half the teams were B sides.


Agreed but watch next season, qualification counts towards the champions cup, no more guaranteed qualification, they will have to play they're top players far more often in the Guinness pro 12, let's see how far the Irish get next year in the pro 12

The devil is in the detail

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