| Ched Evans for Wales? on 16:59 - Aug 27 with 1705 views | londonlisa2001 |
I think that's a pretty misleading thread title Darran to be honest. I know that you'll say that it is a question, but it indicates something other than what is in the article in my opinion. |  | |  |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:01 - Aug 27 with 1693 views | Darran |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 16:59 - Aug 27 by londonlisa2001 |
I think that's a pretty misleading thread title Darran to be honest. I know that you'll say that it is a question, but it indicates something other than what is in the article in my opinion. |
Not sure what you mean there that was the question to Coleman wasn't it? |  |
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| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:14 - Aug 27 with 1646 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:01 - Aug 27 by Darran |
Not sure what you mean there that was the question to Coleman wasn't it? |
yes it was a question about whether he could be considered in the future (which actually Coleman appeared to be quite negative about really, albeit he was careful to avoid saying 'no'), but phrased in that way makes it come across as querulous rather than a question.
I'm probably just being over critical - you may remember my fairly strong stance on the entire question! | | | |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:16 - Aug 27 with 1644 views | Darran |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:14 - Aug 27 by londonlisa2001 |
yes it was a question about whether he could be considered in the future (which actually Coleman appeared to be quite negative about really, albeit he was careful to avoid saying 'no'), but phrased in that way makes it come across as querulous rather than a question.
I'm probably just being over critical - you may remember my fairly strong stance on the entire question! |
Ok then.  | |
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| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:18 - Aug 27 with 1631 views | Drizzy |
If he's banging them in and could get us to a major tournament then I really don't give a f*ck. |  |
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| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:24 - Aug 27 with 1610 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:18 - Aug 27 by Drizzy |
If he's banging them in and could get us to a major tournament then I really don't give a f*ck. |
perhaps not, but I would rather never qualify for anything again than have a rapist playing for Wales. We've never qualified for anything before (and never appeared since 1958) so it's not like we'd all have to adjust our summer plans is it. [Post edited 27 Aug 2014 17:25]
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| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:24 - Aug 27 with 1605 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:16 - Aug 27 by Darran |
Ok then. |
lol | | | |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:26 - Aug 27 with 1597 views | Drizzy |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:24 - Aug 27 by londonlisa2001 |
perhaps not, but I would rather never qualify for anything again than have a rapist playing for Wales. We've never qualified for anything before (and never appeared since 1958) so it's not like we'd all have to adjust our summer plans is it. [Post edited 27 Aug 2014 17:25]
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Would you boycott the tournament if he played for us and we qualified? | |
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| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:39 - Aug 27 with 1543 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:26 - Aug 27 by Drizzy |
Would you boycott the tournament if he played for us and we qualified? |
Not sure what you mean by 'boycott the tournament'? If you mean would I go to a match if he was playing then no I wouldn't, and if you mean would I support Wales if he was playing then obviously it would be very hard to not support my country but I would not actively support.
i would also write to the Welsh FA (for all the good that would do) to explain my thoughts on it.
I realise that it's different for everyone, but I can only follow my own conscience on these matters (as would everyone else) and I wouldn't be surprised if rape is thought of very differently by women than by men. I do not mean for one second that virtually all men believe it to be very wrong and appalling, so please don't think I'm saying that even slightly, but the genuine fear of rape is very strong in women in a way that I wouldn't expect a man to necessarily really understand. It's not about the sex bit, it's actually the fear of being physically overpowered and unable to do anything at all about it. I'm pretty small, only 5 foot 3 ish, but whatever size women are, a man will almost always be able to very easily over power them, and the feeling of vulnerability is horrible. It's a terrible, terrible crime - thankfully I have no first hand experience of it, but I do know women who have been attacked and very badly hurt. I could never forgive a man that thinks it's OK to rape (as Ched Evans obviously does). In fact, I may have a little more understanding if he had ever expressed any type of remorse and understanding that what he did was wrong to be honest.
It's just a personal view though. | | | |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:45 - Aug 27 with 1516 views | DwightYorkeSuperstar |
I have a feeling that if we were to conduct an anonymous poll with the two options being;
"I'd give young Ched my blessing to put on the national shirt if it meant Wales would qualify for a major tournament"
"I'd not give young Ched my blessing to put on the national shirt and not qualify for a major tournament"..
.. that the most popular choice would be to let young Ched play.
In my opinion, I'd rather he didn't play, but if he refinds his form and establishes himself as the best striker Wales has then I wouldn't complain if he does get called up, I just wouldn't chant his name etc. |  |
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| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:50 - Aug 27 with 1494 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:45 - Aug 27 by DwightYorkeSuperstar |
I have a feeling that if we were to conduct an anonymous poll with the two options being;
"I'd give young Ched my blessing to put on the national shirt if it meant Wales would qualify for a major tournament"
"I'd not give young Ched my blessing to put on the national shirt and not qualify for a major tournament"..
.. that the most popular choice would be to let young Ched play.
In my opinion, I'd rather he didn't play, but if he refinds his form and establishes himself as the best striker Wales has then I wouldn't complain if he does get called up, I just wouldn't chant his name etc. |
you're quite possibly right but it doesn't change the strength of any individual's feeling about it does it even if they are a lone voice.
BTW - Sheffield Utd have received a petition signed by over 60,000 people requesting that they do not sign him (I don't even know if 'sign him' is the correct phrase - don't have him at the club anyway). Given that they probably only have a fraction of that supporting them every week it's obviously not the case that it's only a few people that share my view.
By the way Dwight - calling him 'young Ched' cheapens the point a little - he is not some petty miscreant that has made a silly error, he is a convicted rapist. | | | |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:53 - Aug 27 with 1479 views | DwightYorkeSuperstar |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:50 - Aug 27 by londonlisa2001 |
you're quite possibly right but it doesn't change the strength of any individual's feeling about it does it even if they are a lone voice.
BTW - Sheffield Utd have received a petition signed by over 60,000 people requesting that they do not sign him (I don't even know if 'sign him' is the correct phrase - don't have him at the club anyway). Given that they probably only have a fraction of that supporting them every week it's obviously not the case that it's only a few people that share my view.
By the way Dwight - calling him 'young Ched' cheapens the point a little - he is not some petty miscreant that has made a silly error, he is a convicted rapist. |
I understand he's a convicted rapist and I'm not disputing that, but he has served his time and is allowed to now find any job he likes (I'm guessing this excludes any work with children / vulnerable people etc).
I wonder how many of those people who signed the petition have criminal records themselves. I wonder how they'd fell if strangers demanded they not return to the only trade they know of because of their past actions which they have served their time for. | |
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| Ched Evans for Wales? on 18:04 - Aug 27 with 1438 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:53 - Aug 27 by DwightYorkeSuperstar |
I understand he's a convicted rapist and I'm not disputing that, but he has served his time and is allowed to now find any job he likes (I'm guessing this excludes any work with children / vulnerable people etc).
I wonder how many of those people who signed the petition have criminal records themselves. I wonder how they'd fell if strangers demanded they not return to the only trade they know of because of their past actions which they have served their time for. |
And it is precisely that point that means that I have stated before that although I do not like it, and would absolutely hate it if he played for us, I have an understanding of why he can't be, or perhaps shouldn't be, banned from playing for a club again.
But playing for Wales is not his 'job'. Being banned from playing for Wales is not stopping him going back to his 'trade'. It should be a honour to be selected for your country (in fact, they actually call it 'International honours' when describing a player's international caps).
So it's not the equivalent of stopping someone after serving their time being a plumber / carpenter / accountant / whatever. It's the equivalent of saying to those people, we understand that you have served your time and are free to work, but we will never select you as a representative of your profession due to your past. That's probably fairly common practice. | | | |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 18:09 - Aug 27 with 1417 views | DwightYorkeSuperstar |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 18:04 - Aug 27 by londonlisa2001 |
And it is precisely that point that means that I have stated before that although I do not like it, and would absolutely hate it if he played for us, I have an understanding of why he can't be, or perhaps shouldn't be, banned from playing for a club again.
But playing for Wales is not his 'job'. Being banned from playing for Wales is not stopping him going back to his 'trade'. It should be a honour to be selected for your country (in fact, they actually call it 'International honours' when describing a player's international caps).
So it's not the equivalent of stopping someone after serving their time being a plumber / carpenter / accountant / whatever. It's the equivalent of saying to those people, we understand that you have served your time and are free to work, but we will never select you as a representative of your profession due to your past. That's probably fairly common practice. |
It stopped being an 'honour' to play for Wales the moment we started fielding a team predominantly of English players who weren't good enough to play for England and settled for Wales instead.
Wales is a way for English players not good enough to play for their country to still have an international career. When we do produce excellent players, they often cannot be bothered to turn up to play. Even Bale is heading down this route now, chosing to go on a marketing tour to Asia with Madrid instead of play the Summer internationals for Wales.
I do see your point and it is an excellent one, I just personally think if he's allowed to play club football then he should be allowed to play internationally too. I'm sure many Sheffield United fans deem it an honour to play for their club just like you think it is an honour to play for Wales. | |
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| Ched Evans for Wales? on 18:11 - Aug 27 with 1414 views | Drizzy |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 17:39 - Aug 27 by londonlisa2001 |
Not sure what you mean by 'boycott the tournament'? If you mean would I go to a match if he was playing then no I wouldn't, and if you mean would I support Wales if he was playing then obviously it would be very hard to not support my country but I would not actively support.
i would also write to the Welsh FA (for all the good that would do) to explain my thoughts on it.
I realise that it's different for everyone, but I can only follow my own conscience on these matters (as would everyone else) and I wouldn't be surprised if rape is thought of very differently by women than by men. I do not mean for one second that virtually all men believe it to be very wrong and appalling, so please don't think I'm saying that even slightly, but the genuine fear of rape is very strong in women in a way that I wouldn't expect a man to necessarily really understand. It's not about the sex bit, it's actually the fear of being physically overpowered and unable to do anything at all about it. I'm pretty small, only 5 foot 3 ish, but whatever size women are, a man will almost always be able to very easily over power them, and the feeling of vulnerability is horrible. It's a terrible, terrible crime - thankfully I have no first hand experience of it, but I do know women who have been attacked and very badly hurt. I could never forgive a man that thinks it's OK to rape (as Ched Evans obviously does). In fact, I may have a little more understanding if he had ever expressed any type of remorse and understanding that what he did was wrong to be honest.
It's just a personal view though. |
Fair enough.
I understand where you're coming from. I guess I'm unlikely to ever experience the fear of such a heinous act. In my view he is a man who was punished for actions and should now be allowed to continue in his profession as part of his rehabilitation. | |
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| Ched Evans for Wales? on 18:21 - Aug 27 with 1392 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 18:11 - Aug 27 by Drizzy |
Fair enough.
I understand where you're coming from. I guess I'm unlikely to ever experience the fear of such a heinous act. In my view he is a man who was punished for actions and should now be allowed to continue in his profession as part of his rehabilitation. |
yes - I understand that bit - see my reply to DYSS above as to where I draw the line on what exactly constitutes his 'profession' and what doesn't.
Because of the difference in physical strength, irrespective of size, I think that women to some extent at least, have almost a 'pact' with men that they won't abuse that strength difference. When men abuse or ignore that 'pact' then women are in an appalling position. And a rapist, by definition, is abusing that pact. A man like Ched Evans, has effectively said, I am prepared to use my physical advantage in a way that you can't do anything about, and I don't care what you think or how you feel as a result of that. It's truly dreadful and, as I say, that abuse of power has almost nothing to do with the actual sex part - it goes much deeper than that. Someone that is an abuser of someone weaker than themselves, just because they can - can they be rehabilitated from that way of thinking? I'm not sure to be honest. | | | |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 18:29 - Aug 27 with 1367 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 18:09 - Aug 27 by DwightYorkeSuperstar |
It stopped being an 'honour' to play for Wales the moment we started fielding a team predominantly of English players who weren't good enough to play for England and settled for Wales instead.
Wales is a way for English players not good enough to play for their country to still have an international career. When we do produce excellent players, they often cannot be bothered to turn up to play. Even Bale is heading down this route now, chosing to go on a marketing tour to Asia with Madrid instead of play the Summer internationals for Wales.
I do see your point and it is an excellent one, I just personally think if he's allowed to play club football then he should be allowed to play internationally too. I'm sure many Sheffield United fans deem it an honour to play for their club just like you think it is an honour to play for Wales. |
yes, but playing for Sheffield Utd is a job - they get paid for it, there is a contract of employment - the same isn't true of playing for a country, whatever country that is.
Whether representing any country is, in itself, an honour or not in the wider sense depends on one's viewpoint. I don't see much wrong with someone with Welsh parents for example playing for Wales - I live in London, my brother lives in London - his son is English, but I would guarantee he wouldn't play for England - he supports Wales. You presumably don't think that the England team is cheapened by having had John Barnes playing? Or what about Owen Hargreaves, or Michael Owen? | | | |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 18:34 - Aug 27 with 1348 views | DwightYorkeSuperstar |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 18:29 - Aug 27 by londonlisa2001 |
yes, but playing for Sheffield Utd is a job - they get paid for it, there is a contract of employment - the same isn't true of playing for a country, whatever country that is.
Whether representing any country is, in itself, an honour or not in the wider sense depends on one's viewpoint. I don't see much wrong with someone with Welsh parents for example playing for Wales - I live in London, my brother lives in London - his son is English, but I would guarantee he wouldn't play for England - he supports Wales. You presumably don't think that the England team is cheapened by having had John Barnes playing? Or what about Owen Hargreaves, or Michael Owen? |
I don't think the England team is cheapened, no. There are one or maybe two players per generation in the England team not born on English soil.
Wales' matchday squads usually contain 10+ of these players alone. I also find the grand parents rule a joke. I can understand the parent situation - my parents are Welsh but I am English born and I would choose Wales over England, but players like Ash who qualify via 1 Welsh grandparent is ludicrous and is completely desperate on Wales' part.
Also I thought that you do get paid to represent your country? It's not as much as club football but I thought players were given a match fee? I'm sure I remember reading about players donating them to charities though. | |
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| Ched Evans for Wales? on 18:46 - Aug 27 with 1325 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 18:34 - Aug 27 by DwightYorkeSuperstar |
I don't think the England team is cheapened, no. There are one or maybe two players per generation in the England team not born on English soil.
Wales' matchday squads usually contain 10+ of these players alone. I also find the grand parents rule a joke. I can understand the parent situation - my parents are Welsh but I am English born and I would choose Wales over England, but players like Ash who qualify via 1 Welsh grandparent is ludicrous and is completely desperate on Wales' part.
Also I thought that you do get paid to represent your country? It's not as much as club football but I thought players were given a match fee? I'm sure I remember reading about players donating them to charities though. |
I think they get a fee, but it's certainly not their job. In a lot of professions, you have a job but may get paid a fee (effectively expenses plus) type thing for some representative work. There's no contract of employment between players and their nation in football (there is in rugby where players have contracts with WRU).
I have no idea how many Welsh players qualify on grandparents rather than parents / birthplace. I know Williams does. I also know that England were trying to get that Man Utd winger to play for them, and that wasn't even with a grandparent - that was just residency (as it was with John Barnes for example) and I find that more ludicrous (I know that system also is used in rugby and cricket). Anyway - that is all really rather besides the point on this particular matter. | | | |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 20:17 - Aug 27 with 1222 views | Kilkennyjack |
He should never be allowed to play for wales again. |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Ched Evans for Wales? on 20:19 - Aug 27 with 1219 views | mark555 |
For me I still have doubts about what happened with Ched Evans that night and if he is guilty of rape, and for that reason I have no problem with him playing for wales. | | | |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 21:47 - Aug 27 with 1154 views | latchford |
I would take Garry Glitter playing for us if we qualified. | | | |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 21:53 - Aug 27 with 1140 views | raynor94 |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 21:47 - Aug 27 by latchford |
I would take Garry Glitter playing for us if we qualified. |
There again some people have standards and principles, you obviously don't |  |
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| Ched Evans for Wales? on 21:56 - Aug 27 with 1127 views | Highjack |
He's a league one footballer. He shouldn't be anywhere near the Wales squad these days for that reason alone. |  |
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| Ched Evans for Wales? on 21:59 - Aug 27 with 1117 views | latchford |
| Ched Evans for Wales? on 21:53 - Aug 27 by raynor94 |
There again some people have standards and principles, you obviously don't |
None at all. He is the leader.
Wales qualifying for a tournament is the last thing in football I really need to see. | | | |
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