| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" 22:42 - Dec 14 with 25275 views | Chiswickjack4 |
Another home game, another banner in the East Stand with a message to the Americans.
I very much hope the club take their time on deciding on new/additional investment.
The value of our club is going to go through the roof once the new TV deal is announced in March... |  | | |  |
| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 13:48 - Dec 16 with 1573 views | Darran |
| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 13:40 - Dec 16 by Starsky |
Seems to me that the ones stirring it up regarding extra investment being necessary are the board.
Last years sound bites were based on the "we buy cheap and sell on for big profits"
And "Some players will be using us as a stepping stone"
What's changed?
We seem to be making approx £14,000,000 a year and no doubt the sky money will probably keep spiralling.
Being an established mid table Premier league side is always going to be our realistic target and where there or thereabouts.
The shareholders advocating cashing in are not being honest to themselves or us, the fans.
I'd rather see us sell Bony for £25,000,000 to continue our development off the field, than bringing in new money men. |
17th place it is then.  |  |
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| (No subject) on 13:57 - Dec 16 with 1555 views | Shaky |
| (No subject) on 13:19 - Dec 16 by Parlay |
Nothing to do with prophecy, its about common sense and most likely scenario.
In order to build a clubs value you have to improve it, to improve it costs money and considerable risk and spending doesn't guarantee success, in fact, far from it.
It is far more likely that an owner with no affiliation to the club will want to use the club as an advertising tool, a platform to raise their profile and to make as much money from it as possible with risking as little as possible.
Given football clubs are a business with guaranteed £100m incomes, profits are guaranteed simply by making overheads considerably less. Right now we have an infra structure and personnel that in all likelyhood could keep us in the premier league with little investment to the playing staff for the next 5 years. With us posting 9 figure profits and TV money only going to increase - i think its a fair shout to suggest they will be thinking along these lines. |
You are simply wrong, Parlay.
There are broadly 2 types of financial investors that buy companies. Leveraged Buy-Out (LBO) firms and Private Equity Investors.
The LBO guys operate in the way you mention. They use lots of debt and make their companies sweat, then pay down the debt quickly and sell out at a huge profit. FWIW, George Hicks of Liverpool fame was one of the main players globally through his firm Hicks Muse Tate & Furst, a name much feared in boardrooms throughout the world along with others like KKR.
These were the barbarians at the gate, but their heyday was in the 80s and 90s and they are nowhere near as influential as they once were, because the business model no longer works, in part because companies are generally much leaner in their operations.
Instead their place has been taken by Private Equity investors, who might use that kind of strategy in narrow situations, but are generally much smarter and place a significantly greater emphasis on building value.
And if you are going to invest in a football club it doesn't take a genius to realise that financial success and on-field success are inexorably linked.
As for the question of your prophetic abilities your comments show a combination of what behavioural scientists would refer to as overconfidence and hindsight bias.
Tan's investment could either have gone badly or well, but you believe with hindsight that the outcome was obvious to you, resulting in overconfidence regarding your ability to predict future outcomes.
But in reality you predicted a coin toss. You might well do it again, but that doesn't make you a seer. |  |
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| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 14:03 - Dec 16 with 1536 views | londonlisa2001 |
| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 13:23 - Dec 16 by shandyjack |
i fully agree with you Lisa, there is no rush at all for them all.
To your first paragraph, i have only hear HJ talk about Investment which is in the best interest of the club.
It is also out of our hands what and who the shareholders sell their shares too regardless of what a banner says. |
Unfortunately I believe that Huw and others may be using terminology like 'investment' a little loosely as I've said before.
On your last point - you are right to a large extent - we can only exert influence, not change events unless there are specific measures that the Trust can take because of protections they may have (which are not public).
One thing that I wouldn't discount though. It seems to me that to many board members (probably not all), their reputations are of vital importance. I think that they will hope to get the fan base behind them in order to protect those reputations and it may cause some of them (again, not all) to think very carefully if they believe that things may get difficult. | | | |
| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 14:04 - Dec 16 with 1533 views | MattG |
Here's a question.....
Would the Shareholders who are looking to sell be more likely to stick around if they got less criticism on the subject of dividend payments? |  | | |
| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 14:10 - Dec 16 with 1515 views | jackonicko |
| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 14:04 - Dec 16 by MattG |
Here's a question.....
Would the Shareholders who are looking to sell be more likely to stick around if they got less criticism on the subject of dividend payments? |
No. It would take a hundred years for the current level of dividend payments to give them what's on offer now. Discount that for the time value of money, and it's even longer.
And that then presumes the club stays in the EPL for a hundred years and can afford to keep on making the same payments it does.
And you presume they get a lot of criticism for taking dividends. I see very little criticism in reality, either on here or in the real world.
So, the answer from me is no. |  | | |
| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 14:10 - Dec 16 with 1491 views | londonlisa2001 |
| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 14:04 - Dec 16 by MattG |
Here's a question.....
Would the Shareholders who are looking to sell be more likely to stick around if they got less criticism on the subject of dividend payments? |
this has been touched on before on this board.
In my view (only my view) - it doesn't matter, because if that results in 'stay for big dividends' then any benefit of having 'local fans' as owners has evaporated. May as well be anyone at that point, in fact, may as well be people that have deeper pockets and global experience.
Although one thing that I would say about this entire situation. In certain cases, I'm not sure there's any going back to the whole notion of the 'local fans' stuff anyway whatever ends up happening. As they say, you can't unscramble an egg. | | | |
| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 14:13 - Dec 16 with 1480 views | Darran |
I just saw this on Viz twitter,made me smile anyway.
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| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 14:30 - Dec 16 with 1446 views | Uxbridge |
| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 14:04 - Dec 16 by MattG |
Here's a question.....
Would the Shareholders who are looking to sell be more likely to stick around if they got less criticism on the subject of dividend payments? |
What criticism have they had? They've had the smoothest ride they'll ever have. |  |
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| (No subject) on 14:34 - Dec 16 with 1431 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| (No subject) on 13:05 - Dec 16 by londonlisa2001 |
and how do you propose that we spot them?
And it may be the case that your view is different to those that remember what happened before and the statements that were made at that time by the people that own the club currently about what would and wouldn't ever be allowed to happen in the future.
When they made those statements, of course, they did so without realising that they may one day stand to make millions.
Perhaps what should have been said by some of them, rather than "we'll never allow the club to fall into the hands of people that don't care about the club but only about making money" or words to that effect was "we'll never allow the club to fall into the hands of people that don't care about the club but only about making money, UNLESS those people offer us a shed load and make us personally wealthy beyond our wildest dreams in which case, whatever" |
I hope by reading posts like this they realise why they put their money on the line in the first place. To keep the club out of the carpetbaggers clutches permanently. It won't look awfully good if they sell the club under the excuse that "we need new investment to push on" and pick up millions in the process, handing the club to a carpetbagger. They already earn good money up there and they get their dividends, more money than most of us will ever see. |  |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
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| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 14:40 - Dec 16 with 1418 views | MattG |
| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 14:10 - Dec 16 by jackonicko |
No. It would take a hundred years for the current level of dividend payments to give them what's on offer now. Discount that for the time value of money, and it's even longer.
And that then presumes the club stays in the EPL for a hundred years and can afford to keep on making the same payments it does.
And you presume they get a lot of criticism for taking dividends. I see very little criticism in reality, either on here or in the real world.
So, the answer from me is no. |
As I recall it, there was a fair bit of criticism flying round on here, certainly when the first dividend payments were announced.
I take your point about the time it would take to get to the same situation but perhaps that's not really what it's about. Maybe I'm too much of an idealist but I'd be disappointed if a six figure dividend every year wasn't enough and that the sale was purely driven by greed. | | | |
| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 14:43 - Dec 16 with 1410 views | MattG |
| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 14:30 - Dec 16 by Uxbridge |
What criticism have they had? They've had the smoothest ride they'll ever have. |
Ahem.... http://planetswans.fansnetwork.co.uk/blogs/6/whose-money-is-it-anyway
Seriously, I take your point and perhaps there wasn't as much as I recall. I'm just struggling with the notion that these people are willing to risk the long-term future of the Club purely out of greed. | | | |
| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 14:57 - Dec 16 with 1386 views | Darran |
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| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 15:05 - Dec 16 with 1374 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 13:45 - Dec 16 by shandyjack |
i'd like to bring in investment so we can keep the likes of Bony and Siggurdsson. But i agree it is a fine line to tread on |
Err, you're talking like we've never signed anyone. I think we are fine for transfer funds, if expansion has to wait so we can bring in players who will keep us in the league then so be it. By stagnation you mean survival without selling the club to people whose motivation remains unknown, then I'll take stagnation thanks very much.
What we need to do is what we've ALWAYS needed to do, get a top notch scouting network in place so we can again pick up Laudrup esque bargains. The most expensive signings he made were Pablo and Ki in his first year worth £5 million each. Flores and Michu only cost £2 million s the players are out there. It's finding them. | |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
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| (No subject) on 15:07 - Dec 16 with 1364 views | ToInfinityandBeyond |
| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 13:23 - Dec 16 by shandyjack |
i fully agree with you Lisa, there is no rush at all for them all.
To your first paragraph, i have only hear HJ talk about Investment which is in the best interest of the club.
It is also out of our hands what and who the shareholders sell their shares too regardless of what a banner says. |
This cannot be said enough
THE PURCHASE OF SHARES IS NOT AN INVESTMENT IN THE CLUB IT IS THE PRECISE OPPOSITE
- The higher the price of the shares the more multi millions the purchasers will have to pay to the shareholder
- The more multi millions that the purchasers put into the shareholders pockets the more multi millions they will need to take out of the club (not put in) just to break even
- To make it worth their bother they will want to take many times their initial purchase payment out of our club even though the club has not seen a penny of it
The club is only worth what people are prepared to pay for it, it will be the Trust’s acquiescence that will make it worth all these millions. That would be a nice present to the shareholders for what our club has achieved, but can we afford such generosity and gamble with the future of our club when they have already had much more than their initial investment back (and all the other wonderful things and benefits that have gone with being at the heart of this great ride). We fight with all our power and show our strength and the shares may be worth next to nothing, then …..
- No one will then have to pay millions for them to the current shareholders
- No one will then have to take those millions out of our clubs to recoup their “investment”
(which was made into the pockets of the current shareholders)
- Perhaps the Trust can then buy more shares at a reasonable price such as that paid to Mel from those that want to cash in — we can surely raise more funds
As far as if this is going ahead — no we need to be make it clear now we will do everything to stop it — nothing will put the potential Lotus Eaters off more than knowing they will have to deal ad infinitum with a vociferous Trust and Fans who will not roll over. The time to make a difference is not during a rubber stamping exercise to agree a done deal but now when we may actually influence the outcome and when people may withdraw before they have fully committed.
As far as the Trust going cap in hand to negotiate the best deal with the buyers, oh yes they will promise the earth to get what they want but with no real power given. The buyers would have the ability to potentially gain full control (and what else would their objective be) by generous continued buyout then share dilution until the Trust have no power whatsoever. We should show strength not weakness.
At the end of the day they will agree with anything they want to do and nothing they do not — their objective profit and the good of the club of course only whilst it does not conflict with their prime motivation. The law of diminishing marginal returns apply to what small difference we may make by putting massive new investment in — a loan that will have to be serviced even if it’s objective is not successful. Make no mistake this could be the green light into the serious demise of our club and certainly the values hitherto defended so strongly. Then again all may be well we may top the PL and win the Champions league and all live happily ever after — The End — but I find it surprising that those who so viciously oppose religion are willing to believe in fairy stories.
Gather ye rosebuds while ye may,
Old time is still a-flying;
And this same flower that smiles today
Tomorrow will be dying…………
If you believe we cannot make a difference then you are already defeated [Post edited 16 Dec 2014 15:12]
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| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 15:08 - Dec 16 with 1360 views | shandyjack |
| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 15:05 - Dec 16 by Brynmill_Jack |
Err, you're talking like we've never signed anyone. I think we are fine for transfer funds, if expansion has to wait so we can bring in players who will keep us in the league then so be it. By stagnation you mean survival without selling the club to people whose motivation remains unknown, then I'll take stagnation thanks very much.
What we need to do is what we've ALWAYS needed to do, get a top notch scouting network in place so we can again pick up Laudrup esque bargains. The most expensive signings he made were Pablo and Ki in his first year worth £5 million each. Flores and Michu only cost £2 million s the players are out there. It's finding them. |
no, i was replying to the post that stated he would rather sell Bony to see the club sustained that get investment in, i was merely stating that with the correct investment we won't need to sell our better player to sustain, we can keep them and kick on again.
I'd take signing players over an expansion as well but some fans seem to want both and not have investment |  |
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| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 15:10 - Dec 16 with 1353 views | Uxbridge |
Christ, if that's the best example of criticism they've had then I rather think my point has been proven.
You may be struggling with the notion, but I suggest everyone adjusts rather quickly. Any share sale will likely be done because it is in the seller's interests. All we can hope is that caveats are put in place to ensure the Trust and long-term future of the club. Putting faith in the principles of capitalism isn't particularly wise IMO. | |
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| (No subject) on 15:11 - Dec 16 with 1349 views | shandyjack |
| (No subject) on 15:07 - Dec 16 by ToInfinityandBeyond |
This cannot be said enough
THE PURCHASE OF SHARES IS NOT AN INVESTMENT IN THE CLUB IT IS THE PRECISE OPPOSITE
- The higher the price of the shares the more multi millions the purchasers will have to pay to the shareholder
- The more multi millions that the purchasers put into the shareholders pockets the more multi millions they will need to take out of the club (not put in) just to break even
- To make it worth their bother they will want to take many times their initial purchase payment out of our club even though the club has not seen a penny of it
The club is only worth what people are prepared to pay for it, it will be the Trust’s acquiescence that will make it worth all these millions. That would be a nice present to the shareholders for what our club has achieved, but can we afford such generosity and gamble with the future of our club when they have already had much more than their initial investment back (and all the other wonderful things and benefits that have gone with being at the heart of this great ride). We fight with all our power and show our strength and the shares may be worth next to nothing, then …..
- No one will then have to pay millions for them to the current shareholders
- No one will then have to take those millions out of our clubs to recoup their “investment”
(which was made into the pockets of the current shareholders)
- Perhaps the Trust can then buy more shares at a reasonable price such as that paid to Mel from those that want to cash in — we can surely raise more funds
As far as if this is going ahead — no we need to be make it clear now we will do everything to stop it — nothing will put the potential Lotus Eaters off more than knowing they will have to deal ad infinitum with a vociferous Trust and Fans who will not roll over. The time to make a difference is not during a rubber stamping exercise to agree a done deal but now when we may actually influence the outcome and when people may withdraw before they have fully committed.
As far as the Trust going cap in hand to negotiate the best deal with the buyers, oh yes they will promise the earth to get what they want but with no real power given. The buyers would have the ability to potentially gain full control (and what else would their objective be) by generous continued buyout then share dilution until the Trust have no power whatsoever. We should show strength not weakness.
At the end of the day they will agree with anything they want to do and nothing they do not — their objective profit and the good of the club of course only whilst it does not conflict with their prime motivation. The law of diminishing marginal returns apply to what small difference we may make by putting massive new investment in — a loan that will have to be serviced even if it’s objective is not successful. Make no mistake this could be the green light into the serious demise of our club and certainly the values hitherto defended so strongly. Then again all may be well we may top the PL and win the Champions league and all live happily ever after — The End — but I find it surprising that those who so viciously oppose religion are willing to believe in fairy stories.
Gather ye rosebuds while ye may,
Old time is still a-flying;
And this same flower that smiles today
Tomorrow will be dying…………
If you believe we cannot make a difference then you are already defeated [Post edited 16 Dec 2014 15:12]
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you crack on then mate, i'll wait and see what happens before i get my pitchfork out to someone who may just may be in it for more than to make a quick buck. | |
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| (No subject) on 15:15 - Dec 16 with 1340 views | ToInfinityandBeyond |
| (No subject) on 15:11 - Dec 16 by shandyjack |
you crack on then mate, i'll wait and see what happens before i get my pitchfork out to someone who may just may be in it for more than to make a quick buck. |
No pitchforks just robust protection in a way that the "investors" would admire in their own staff when they deal with the club
What else do you think someone with such a history is in it for then? | | | |
| (No subject) on 15:19 - Dec 16 with 1324 views | shandyjack |
| (No subject) on 15:15 - Dec 16 by ToInfinityandBeyond |
No pitchforks just robust protection in a way that the "investors" would admire in their own staff when they deal with the club
What else do you think someone with such a history is in it for then? |
what history? | |
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| (No subject) on 15:29 - Dec 16 with 1312 views | ToInfinityandBeyond |
| (No subject) on 15:19 - Dec 16 by shandyjack |
what history? |
There was a thread that covered the potential investors financial history and some very dubious related issues. I would find it for you but my time in this place is limited due to cendorship of a strong voice against the "investment" without some serious questions being answered before it is sown up. | | | |
| (No subject) on 15:42 - Dec 16 with 1289 views | monmouth |
| (No subject) on 15:29 - Dec 16 by ToInfinityandBeyond |
There was a thread that covered the potential investors financial history and some very dubious related issues. I would find it for you but my time in this place is limited due to cendorship of a strong voice against the "investment" without some serious questions being answered before it is sown up. |
I never thought I'd type this, but in my opinion, Spratty and Shaky have made the posts of the day on this thread.
Edit: ie Sprattys long one a few posts above and Shaky's concise exposition of protection of our values/future enshrined in the legal constitution [Post edited 16 Dec 2014 16:06]
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| (No subject) on 15:56 - Dec 16 with 1248 views | Neath_Jack |
| (No subject) on 15:07 - Dec 16 by ToInfinityandBeyond |
This cannot be said enough
THE PURCHASE OF SHARES IS NOT AN INVESTMENT IN THE CLUB IT IS THE PRECISE OPPOSITE
- The higher the price of the shares the more multi millions the purchasers will have to pay to the shareholder
- The more multi millions that the purchasers put into the shareholders pockets the more multi millions they will need to take out of the club (not put in) just to break even
- To make it worth their bother they will want to take many times their initial purchase payment out of our club even though the club has not seen a penny of it
The club is only worth what people are prepared to pay for it, it will be the Trust’s acquiescence that will make it worth all these millions. That would be a nice present to the shareholders for what our club has achieved, but can we afford such generosity and gamble with the future of our club when they have already had much more than their initial investment back (and all the other wonderful things and benefits that have gone with being at the heart of this great ride). We fight with all our power and show our strength and the shares may be worth next to nothing, then …..
- No one will then have to pay millions for them to the current shareholders
- No one will then have to take those millions out of our clubs to recoup their “investment”
(which was made into the pockets of the current shareholders)
- Perhaps the Trust can then buy more shares at a reasonable price such as that paid to Mel from those that want to cash in — we can surely raise more funds
As far as if this is going ahead — no we need to be make it clear now we will do everything to stop it — nothing will put the potential Lotus Eaters off more than knowing they will have to deal ad infinitum with a vociferous Trust and Fans who will not roll over. The time to make a difference is not during a rubber stamping exercise to agree a done deal but now when we may actually influence the outcome and when people may withdraw before they have fully committed.
As far as the Trust going cap in hand to negotiate the best deal with the buyers, oh yes they will promise the earth to get what they want but with no real power given. The buyers would have the ability to potentially gain full control (and what else would their objective be) by generous continued buyout then share dilution until the Trust have no power whatsoever. We should show strength not weakness.
At the end of the day they will agree with anything they want to do and nothing they do not — their objective profit and the good of the club of course only whilst it does not conflict with their prime motivation. The law of diminishing marginal returns apply to what small difference we may make by putting massive new investment in — a loan that will have to be serviced even if it’s objective is not successful. Make no mistake this could be the green light into the serious demise of our club and certainly the values hitherto defended so strongly. Then again all may be well we may top the PL and win the Champions league and all live happily ever after — The End — but I find it surprising that those who so viciously oppose religion are willing to believe in fairy stories.
Gather ye rosebuds while ye may,
Old time is still a-flying;
And this same flower that smiles today
Tomorrow will be dying…………
If you believe we cannot make a difference then you are already defeated [Post edited 16 Dec 2014 15:12]
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See this post here, f*cking superb. |  |
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| (No subject) on 17:35 - Dec 16 with 1172 views | ApeShit |
| (No subject) on 15:11 - Dec 16 by shandyjack |
you crack on then mate, i'll wait and see what happens before i get my pitchfork out to someone who may just may be in it for more than to make a quick buck. |
Wait and see?
The deal will be done and it will be too late then. |  | | |
| (No subject) on 17:46 - Dec 16 with 1155 views | C_jack |
| (No subject) on 17:35 - Dec 16 by ApeShit |
Wait and see?
The deal will be done and it will be too late then. |
No it won't, unless we're all going to fall into a coma tomorrow.
I can't understand where all this conjecture has come from recently, we haven't had any sort of news since the start of October? over 2 and a half months ago |  |
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| "MOORE'S THE PETTY" on 17:59 - Dec 16 with 1133 views | Darran |
Out of curiosity how did all this American interest start?
Did we as a club contact them?
Did individual share holders contact them?
Or
Did they contact us?
The reason I ask is because Huw seemed to be saying at the London forum that he couldn't understand what Americans could get out of investing in Swansea City. (or is that wrong?) | |
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