| Smoke Free Swansea 12:10 - Oct 10 with 10849 views | EvenThisNameIsTaken |
Ladies and Gents.
There is a survey from Swansea council that I would urge you all to complete - on whether to make Swansea a smoke free city.
Consider this - smokers have known for decades the dangers of smoking, yet have made a conscious decision to take up the habit at the cost of everyone around them - forced to share their death fumes. Non-smokers can't even eat outside on sunny days with their families, or walk outside through a doorway without getting a facefull of fumes from selfish and anti-social smokers who hang around in gangs without a consideration for people having to walk between them to exit the building.
Smoking is a habit that rightfully deserves to be stamped out. If creating a nanny-state policy against smoking is needed to protect the health of others, who have taken the decision not to indulge in cancer development and lung destruction, then so be it.
So, you'll find the link for the survey below.
http://www.swansea.gov.uk/smokefreesurvey |  |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:54 - Oct 10 with 1935 views | Darran |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:36 - Oct 10 by Rancid |
So not only did we discover that second hand smoke kills but now third hand smoke? I don't smoke in the house I go outside which is why I said nobody is affected bar myself.Please don't tell me my Mrs or kids will die from holding my hand. |
Don't go for a walk along the beach this afternoon and have a fag Chris you might give the crabs cancer. |  |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:56 - Oct 10 with 1929 views | EvenThisNameIsTaken |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:48 - Oct 10 by londonlisa2001 |
Your first link says it's harmful - where did I dispute that? Of course it is - extremely harmful. That's why I gave it up.
So does your second link.
And your third.
There have been several independent costings done of this area under freedom of information requests.
Check out this as an example:
https://fullfact.org/factchecks/does_smoking_cost_as_much_as_it_makes_for_the_tr
You obviously have a 'thing' about smoking. That's fine. It is not good for you and second hand smoke in confined areas is harmful. But my comment was about the economics. And, on that, every independent analysis done recently (not only in the UK - check out Australia as well) shows you to be wrong.
Sorry, but that's just the way it is. |
Yet you provide nothing viable to back up your counter argument, apart from say "your links are harmful".
When you've spent numerous years being a medical researcher for cancer charities as I have then come back and have a proper discussion. I can only provide you internet links for actual sources which research has proven accurate and true, or in need of further research (and would therefore qualify as substantiated concern). I will not provide you something that is made up but looks good for the sake or appearing correct.
The public outcry regarding horsemeat in their burgers was huge. The public outcry regarding mad cows disease and the possibility of catching Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (vCJD) was huge. Yet in both instances the chances of anyone's health being affected was minimal or at the very least considerably less than that of smoking. So why not the hub-bub now from everyone!
Answer - we're all too afraid to upset those in society who selfishly consider themselves above those of others. You want evidence of this ? Just look back at some of these posts. [Post edited 10 Oct 2015 16:57]
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:58 - Oct 10 with 1923 views | EvenThisNameIsTaken |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:54 - Oct 10 by Darran |
Don't go for a walk along the beach this afternoon and have a fag Chris you might give the crabs cancer. |
You kidding?!? Have you seen the state on the beach with all those cigarette butts and fag packets everywhere?! | |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 17:00 - Oct 10 with 1920 views | EvenThisNameIsTaken |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:51 - Oct 10 by londonlisa2001 |
ha - you then edited your reply to show the same article.
You missed the bit where they summarised that smoking taxes more than make up for the cost to the NHS then did you? And you missed the bit about VAT? |
No editing done to links lisa. Just spelling errors. Perhaps you didn't read the whole thing properly.
And in terms of cost - what costs are you working on exactly as you have again failed to provide any quantifying evidence to support your counter argument. Also, what would you value a human life to be exactly?
You may want to climb off your high horse and discuss this with facts. | |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 17:02 - Oct 10 with 1915 views | Darran |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:58 - Oct 10 by EvenThisNameIsTaken |
You kidding?!? Have you seen the state on the beach with all those cigarette butts and fag packets everywhere?! |
Get the litter wardens down there then. | |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 17:03 - Oct 10 with 1913 views | EvenThisNameIsTaken |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 17:02 - Oct 10 by Darran |
Get the litter wardens down there then. |
They would but they're currently off work with smoking related illnesses. | |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 17:10 - Oct 10 with 1897 views | Darran |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 17:03 - Oct 10 by EvenThisNameIsTaken |
They would but they're currently off work with smoking related illnesses. |
Not the thread to make jokes Mate. | |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 17:13 - Oct 10 with 1891 views | Rancid |
Ignorance would be smoking in the same room as them or in the car.I've made sacrifices by never smoking indoors or around them.That link talks of women who smoke and breastfeed.I'm neither and my Mrs doesn't smoke.I'd love to give up because it's a mugs game but it's my choice and I don't believe me smoking the occasional ciggie outdoors will cause any significant harm to others or I wouldn't do it.Any link or campaign you wish to post or be involved in won't change my opinion I'm afraid.I know I'm killing myself but please don't tell me that third hand smoke will kill others around me.Btw I agree with your opinion on banning it in public.But I do it in private and there lies the difference. |  | | |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 17:36 - Oct 10 with 1860 views | dgt73 |
. [Post edited 10 Oct 2015 17:38]
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 17:47 - Oct 10 with 1837 views | phact0rri |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:56 - Oct 10 by EvenThisNameIsTaken |
Yet you provide nothing viable to back up your counter argument, apart from say "your links are harmful".
When you've spent numerous years being a medical researcher for cancer charities as I have then come back and have a proper discussion. I can only provide you internet links for actual sources which research has proven accurate and true, or in need of further research (and would therefore qualify as substantiated concern). I will not provide you something that is made up but looks good for the sake or appearing correct.
The public outcry regarding horsemeat in their burgers was huge. The public outcry regarding mad cows disease and the possibility of catching Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (vCJD) was huge. Yet in both instances the chances of anyone's health being affected was minimal or at the very least considerably less than that of smoking. So why not the hub-bub now from everyone!
Answer - we're all too afraid to upset those in society who selfishly consider themselves above those of others. You want evidence of this ? Just look back at some of these posts. [Post edited 10 Oct 2015 16:57]
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Truthfully there isn't enough data to support either claim. Can one say its "harmful" probably. but at what quantity does it become dangerous? And what control elements can it indite a platform for mutation?
These are questions unanswered due to lack of study and data.
Sorry buy in my point of view one needs to back their argument with data or its just guessing. |  |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 17:48 - Oct 10 with 1836 views | dgt73 |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 17:41 - Oct 10 by Rancid |
That's right, post a link to this very thread and then edit it.  |
Even taking people especially children in a car hours after someone has been smoking in it leaves them to breath in toxic vapours even when all the smoke has cleared. | |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 17:50 - Oct 10 with 1830 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:56 - Oct 10 by EvenThisNameIsTaken |
Yet you provide nothing viable to back up your counter argument, apart from say "your links are harmful".
When you've spent numerous years being a medical researcher for cancer charities as I have then come back and have a proper discussion. I can only provide you internet links for actual sources which research has proven accurate and true, or in need of further research (and would therefore qualify as substantiated concern). I will not provide you something that is made up but looks good for the sake or appearing correct.
The public outcry regarding horsemeat in their burgers was huge. The public outcry regarding mad cows disease and the possibility of catching Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (vCJD) was huge. Yet in both instances the chances of anyone's health being affected was minimal or at the very least considerably less than that of smoking. So why not the hub-bub now from everyone!
Answer - we're all too afraid to upset those in society who selfishly consider themselves above those of others. You want evidence of this ? Just look back at some of these posts. [Post edited 10 Oct 2015 16:57]
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You are trying to make an argument where there isn't one.
At no point did I disagree that smoking isn't harmful - that's why providing a thousand links saying it is harmful is neither here nor there - it's irrelevant to the discussion. And i didn't say the link is harmful, I said the link was about the subject of it being harmful which was irrelevant to the point being made.
The point I made was a purely economic one. I said that the independent research (and that doesn't include anything from ASH) is that smoking actually doesn't cost the NHS more than it raises in tax.
I provided a link which calculated that. There have been numerous studies done that have shown the same thing.
As you will well know if you are a medical researcher, there are any number of things which adults do that are bad for them and cause cancers. Bad diet is one of the biggest. Drinking is another. Being overweight is another. There are all sorts of chemicals we use every day that can cause cancer. And the biggest factor of all is probably genetics. We all know of people that have smoked 40 a day until they were well into their nineties and haven't died from it.
But the 'cost' argument is so skewed. I'll give you an example. If someone dies of heart disease, and they are overweight, have drunk throughout their life and have also smoked, that is labelled by the statistics provided by groups such as ASH as a smoking related death. You know that. And yet, it is just one contributory factor. There is a correlation between people smoking and lower income levels as well and lower income levels tend to lead to an earlier death for all sorts of reasons. And yet, they are regarded as having 'smoking related diseases'.
There is a direct correlation between diet and certain breast cancers. The stats from countries such as Japan show this to be true, where the disease was virtually unknown until they started adopting a more 'western' (for which read, laden with junk) diet. But there isn't the same crusade about McDonalds causing cancer.
I am personally not interested in discussing it with someone to whom this is a crusade. I don't smoke, but if someone wants to do so, knowing the risks, that is entirely up to them in my view. | | | |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 18:06 - Oct 10 with 1812 views | Rancid |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 17:48 - Oct 10 by dgt73 |
Even taking people especially children in a car hours after someone has been smoking in it leaves them to breath in toxic vapours even when all the smoke has cleared. |
I can imagine.Luckily i drive a works van and not allowed to smoke in it.And the kids have never been in it anyway.I was stood outside the Harvester last season for the Chelsea game and some flute pulled out of the car park, windows down and smoking with his nipper at his side.It disgusted me and a few around me. | | | |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 18:06 - Oct 10 with 1812 views | dgt73 |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 17:50 - Oct 10 by londonlisa2001 |
You are trying to make an argument where there isn't one.
At no point did I disagree that smoking isn't harmful - that's why providing a thousand links saying it is harmful is neither here nor there - it's irrelevant to the discussion. And i didn't say the link is harmful, I said the link was about the subject of it being harmful which was irrelevant to the point being made.
The point I made was a purely economic one. I said that the independent research (and that doesn't include anything from ASH) is that smoking actually doesn't cost the NHS more than it raises in tax.
I provided a link which calculated that. There have been numerous studies done that have shown the same thing.
As you will well know if you are a medical researcher, there are any number of things which adults do that are bad for them and cause cancers. Bad diet is one of the biggest. Drinking is another. Being overweight is another. There are all sorts of chemicals we use every day that can cause cancer. And the biggest factor of all is probably genetics. We all know of people that have smoked 40 a day until they were well into their nineties and haven't died from it.
But the 'cost' argument is so skewed. I'll give you an example. If someone dies of heart disease, and they are overweight, have drunk throughout their life and have also smoked, that is labelled by the statistics provided by groups such as ASH as a smoking related death. You know that. And yet, it is just one contributory factor. There is a correlation between people smoking and lower income levels as well and lower income levels tend to lead to an earlier death for all sorts of reasons. And yet, they are regarded as having 'smoking related diseases'.
There is a direct correlation between diet and certain breast cancers. The stats from countries such as Japan show this to be true, where the disease was virtually unknown until they started adopting a more 'western' (for which read, laden with junk) diet. But there isn't the same crusade about McDonalds causing cancer.
I am personally not interested in discussing it with someone to whom this is a crusade. I don't smoke, but if someone wants to do so, knowing the risks, that is entirely up to them in my view. |
Did the link you provided take into account the full cost of smoking ? :-
Which includes
Loss of productivity -£5 billion
Cost to businesses of smoking breaks -£5 billion
Smoking related sick days-1 billion
Cost of social care for older smokers £1.1 billion
Cost of fires started by smokers-£391 million. | |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 18:45 - Oct 10 with 1779 views | Highjack |
smoking in moderation is really good for you. Calms the nerves and makes you lose weight. |  |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 19:10 - Oct 10 with 1756 views | perchrockjack |
I have a thing about smoking.
Unquestionably objectionable yet tolerated under the bosum of personal freedom.
I don't like to free to do what I think.
Or what I d like to do | |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 20:00 - Oct 10 with 1714 views | dgt73 |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 17:00 - Oct 10 by EvenThisNameIsTaken |
No editing done to links lisa. Just spelling errors. Perhaps you didn't read the whole thing properly.
And in terms of cost - what costs are you working on exactly as you have again failed to provide any quantifying evidence to support your counter argument. Also, what would you value a human life to be exactly?
You may want to climb off your high horse and discuss this with facts. |
Lisa is so high on that horse, you need Felix Baumgartner to bring her down. | |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 23:24 - Oct 10 with 1657 views | cwrw |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 20:00 - Oct 10 by dgt73 |
Lisa is so high on that horse, you need Felix Baumgartner to bring her down. |
You might have to go even higher than that |  | | |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 08:33 - Oct 11 with 1618 views | Jackhero |
The next smoker that flicks ash near me or on my bike in my place of work will have to get the NHS to remove their fag packet and all near by dog ends from their backside.......will that cost be taken into account? |  |
| Tubbs: Will heaven be like Swansea? Edward: Yes, Tubbs. Only... bigger. |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 15:39 - Oct 11 with 1563 views | exiledclaseboy |
I filled in the survey. Thanks to the OP for bringing it to my attention.  |  |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:01 - Oct 11 with 1550 views | perchrockjack |
Ive had plenty of spats with lisa and doent find her that way inclined.
Show her respect and she s fine.
Ive corrected her on many occasions and she s taken it just fine | |
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| Smoke Free Swansea on 17:12 - Oct 11 with 1529 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:01 - Oct 11 by perchrockjack |
Ive had plenty of spats with lisa and doent find her that way inclined.
Show her respect and she s fine.
Ive corrected her on many occasions and she s taken it just fine |
I wouldn't worry about it Perch - I don't care in the slightest...
Some people just like being rude. Some are extremely rude - I mean there was some idiot over on another thread who said that I lived in Shepherds Bush for God's sake | | | |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 17:57 - Oct 11 with 1514 views | 1462jack |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:28 - Oct 10 by londonlisa2001 |
Actually this isn't true though.
I don't smoke (I used to as full disclosure) but all economic models produced show that smoking generates c. £12bn per annum in taxes and VAT and the costs to the NHS of smoking related illnesses costs about £2.5bn per annum, and up to c. £6bn if you take every possible disease that could have tobacco factors attributed to it. And that is without taking into consideration the facts that a smoker dying younger saves money in pensions, care etc later in life.
Yes, there are issues of costs relating to business productivity etc, but no more than the lost productivity that you get from people being off sick far more times if, for example, they are obese, or time off work due to alcohol consumption etc etc.
And let's ban chewing gum if you really want the streets to be cleaner - the mess that causes is far more costly than fag ends.
I had a look at the survey you linked to - it sums it all up when they asked a question about electronic cigarettes. Absolutely NO effect on anyone else, and yet they want to know if they should ban those as well. Why would they do that?
Ban every fast food outlet in Swansea - that would have more of a positive impact on health, as walking around Swansea it's incredible how many people are clinically obese. The smoking thing is just easy, gesture politics. |
Well said that woman |  | | |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 18:00 - Oct 11 with 1509 views | 1462jack |
| Smoke Free Swansea on 16:54 - Oct 10 by Darran |
Don't go for a walk along the beach this afternoon and have a fag Chris you might give the crabs cancer. |
Brilliant | | | |
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