| Brexiters, why? 12:51 - Apr 22 with 28348 views | the_oracle |
When are the Brexiters going to be honest about the reason they want out?
By any objective view business says stay in. Support from the IMF, CBI big businesses like BT vodaphone, Marks and Spencers, BAE, Easy Jet etc etc. World leader say stay in to protect our position as a world power, to hold the EU together, prevent conflict etc. Unions cite worker’s protection as a reason to stay in. All the main parties support in, the Treasury says in. There are warnings from EU leaders that if we are not part of the club we will have serious problems.
I have not heard a single cogent reason, financially, to get out. Kate Hoey one of the Brexit leaders embarrassingly couldn’t site a single report saying why we would be better off. A few politicians led by Boris and Farage are for out. That’s it. There is no clear explanation of what happens next from them, they just don’t seem to know.
Everything seems to point to the view that “remain” is right.
So be honest, Brexiters, is it immigration?
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| Brexiters, why? on 18:53 - Apr 22 with 2747 views | jackrabbit |
THE EU'S NEW SYMBOL IS THAT OF A CONDOM, because it more accurately reflects the EU's political stance.
A condom allows for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation, protects a bunch of dicks and gives you a sense of security while you're actually being screwed.
It just doesn't get more accurate than that. |  | | |
| Brexiters, why? on 18:55 - Apr 22 with 2741 views | the_oracle |
| Brexiters, why? on 18:44 - Apr 22 by Wingstandwood |
Immigration is a major worry for many! When you read the newspapers and they quote yearly figures that tend to be the equivalent of the population of a very large city? People think how can the U.K's economy/overstretched public services etc cope until breaking/crisis point is reached?
Speaking as a construction industry employee I can honestly say that immigration has driven down wages, working conditions and employment prospects of indigenous born and bred U.K citizens. You get Eastern Europeans being paid well bellow what would be considered 'the-going-rate' because its still way above the wage of their own countries. The irony is?..... Many work to save and sent a large percentage of it back home giving minimal personal spending returns to the U.K economy. How many Eastern Europeans are coming over here and how many of our fellow Brits are going over there to work cos I have not met or known one Brit to do so! |
If all the EU citizens working here were sent home who would replace them?
In what way have they caused working conditions on sites to drop?
How have they affected future prospects? | | | |
| Brexiters, why? on 18:58 - Apr 22 with 2730 views | johnlangy |
| Brexiters, why? on 15:14 - Apr 22 by jackrabbit |
Immigration alone is a reason to get out. The disaster that leads Germany, Merkel, has promised 75m Turks free access to the Schengen area. Ah you may say - we are not in the Schengen area. No, but once you're in it, it is an easy next step to get access to the UK from another EU country. We need to control our borders and be able to choose who we want to take-in.
Apart from that , the EU constrains and meddles in areas of policy that should be under our own control - education, finance, energy, the environment, and every other aspect of daily life that they can poke their well-fed noses into. The EU is rightly a byword for institutionalized extravagance, waste and abuse of public money. This is an outfit that has not had its accounts properly cleared for 19 years.
They wail about a leap into the unknown, yet there is nothing remotely “unknown” about Britain’s status outside the EU. We would just be returning to the position we held for centuries when we were a free, independent and highly successful nation.
Why do we need to be part of a political construct like the EU? We signed up to the Common Market - a free trade arrangement, which we will reinstate once we're out.
Indeed, there is nothing eccentric about non-EU membership. The world has 195 sovereign nations; 167 manage to exist without interference from Brussels, including the two most prosperous nations in Europe: Switzerland and Norway.
Don't mix up being European with being in the EU. I'm European, so are you, so are we all - it's a geographical accident of birth. The EU on the other hand is a political project - one that has gone sadly awry. This is the best chance we've got to get out. We were lied to in 1975 and we're being lied to again. Vote LEAVE ffs. |
A few points.
I'm not aware that Merkel has said to 75 million Turks they are welcome in Germany. Maybe you can point me in the direction of the report. But, if any Turks do go to Germany as a result of whatever agreement is reached they would not be EU citizens so would not be easily able to come to the UK. And why would they want to. I'd imagine the reason for going to Germany would be to live with or associate with family/friends/other Turks that already live there. I seem to remember reading that there is already a Turkish community in Germany of 11 million.
A panel of experts were interviewed on TV a week ago. One was a Civil Servant and she was asked the question about EU regulations and how they affected her work. She said she'd dealt with Education and the NHS in her 15 years as a Civil Servant and there was very little in the way of EU regulations that she had to deal with. I don't know about the other areas you mention.
A leap into the unknown. The unknown is what our relationship with the EU would be if we left. It has to be unknown because no one can predict what arrangements regarding trade will be agreed. We won't be able to just re-instate the free trade arrangement we had 40 years ago because it's not our decision to make. It would have to be agreed by the 27 remaining EU members. And as 50% of our exports are to the EU this is probably the most important consideration in making a decision.
'167 manage to exist without interference from Brussels, including the two most prosperous nations in Europe: Switzerland and Norway'. You're perfectly correct about the 167 and Switzerland and Norway. But, as has been pointed out many times Norway has a free trade deal with the EU which requires them to contribute to EU central funds while having no input into any decisions made within the EU. Also, as a result of accepting that free trade deal they also have had to accept free movement of EU citizens. I believe Switzerland has a similar agreement but stand to be corrected if I'm wrong. | | | |
| Brexiters, why? on 19:17 - Apr 22 with 2705 views | Wingstandwood |
| Brexiters, why? on 18:55 - Apr 22 by the_oracle |
If all the EU citizens working here were sent home who would replace them?
In what way have they caused working conditions on sites to drop?
How have they affected future prospects? |
Working conditions where 'indigenous' born and bred U.K workers are now expected to work same hours as the 'foreign' workforce e.g. the Romanian dry-liners working on Boots contract Parc Fforestfach were working 18 hour shifts. I refused to do an 18 hr shift (for no overtime rate) on the Marks And Spencer contract for Bovis Lend-Lease and was sacked with immediate effect despite working 10 - 18 hours a week extra for no overtime rate myself.
They have affected future prospects because? Employers prefer to employ East European tradesmen for the minimum wage. Cheaper than U.K tradesmen whom generally work away tending to live in bed and breakfast whilst at the same time having a mortgage to pay/family to keep. Eastern Europeans manage quite well because their cost of living back home is vastly cheaper!
http://www.unitetheunion.org/news/construction-workers-target-energy-projects-in [Post edited 22 Apr 2016 19:25]
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| Brexiters, why? on 19:34 - Apr 22 with 2673 views | exiledclaseboy |
Someone said above that they've not heard a decent, well argued reason for staying in. I agree. But I've also not heard a decent, well argued reason for leaving. That's the kind of debate it is and it's not going to change. Leading the "remain" camp you've got political ignoramuses Caneron and Osborne who seem to think that the way to win the debate is by trying to scare people senseless with outlandish and increasingly ridiculous claims of post-EU Armageddon. And the leave campaign is mostly led by the most distasteful bug-eyed nationalist types who won't be able to put together a cogent argument for leaving because a - most of them aren't capable of talking about anything other than immigration and b - the simple fact is that no one has a clue what the future will hold if we leave.
It's shaping up to be the most depressing electoral debate that I can remember, which really is saying something. And I have no clue how I'll vote. [Post edited 22 Apr 2016 20:22]
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| Brexiters, why? on 20:22 - Apr 22 with 2619 views | swan65split |
| Brexiters, why? on 19:34 - Apr 22 by exiledclaseboy |
Someone said above that they've not heard a decent, well argued reason for staying in. I agree. But I've also not heard a decent, well argued reason for leaving. That's the kind of debate it is and it's not going to change. Leading the "remain" camp you've got political ignoramuses Caneron and Osborne who seem to think that the way to win the debate is by trying to scare people senseless with outlandish and increasingly ridiculous claims of post-EU Armageddon. And the leave campaign is mostly led by the most distasteful bug-eyed nationalist types who won't be able to put together a cogent argument for leaving because a - most of them aren't capable of talking about anything other than immigration and b - the simple fact is that no one has a clue what the future will hold if we leave.
It's shaping up to be the most depressing electoral debate that I can remember, which really is saying something. And I have no clue how I'll vote. [Post edited 22 Apr 2016 20:22]
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There is also no clue to the future if we stay, except for expected extension of the Union!!! |  | | |
| Brexiters, why? on 20:23 - Apr 22 with 2617 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Brexiters, why? on 20:22 - Apr 22 by swan65split |
There is also no clue to the future if we stay, except for expected extension of the Union!!! |
Well that's nonsense. If the vote is to remain the status quo prevails. The choice is the status quo or the mostly unknown consequences of leaving. | |
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| Brexiters, why? on 20:32 - Apr 22 with 2607 views | Jack_Meoff |
I'd suggest we're going nowhere, and just wondering how long after June 23rd TTIP is signed. |  |
| If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--forever. |
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| Brexiters, why? on 20:41 - Apr 22 with 2586 views | Swanzay |
Barack Obama says Brexit would leave UK at the 'back of the queue' on trade
Great news maybe then in the future actions by america handing out mortgages like confetti wont ruin our economy and take us into recession on a massive scale like 2008.
Besides our trade no longer exists we sold all our assets to China and the bloody french, we have sold all our skills!
we have little to tradeleft
Again think how much the NHS and such like could use £17 billion per year! |  | | |
| Brexiters, why? on 20:55 - Apr 22 with 2570 views | AnotherJohn |
| Brexiters, why? on 20:23 - Apr 22 by exiledclaseboy |
Well that's nonsense. If the vote is to remain the status quo prevails. The choice is the status quo or the mostly unknown consequences of leaving. |
I think you are mistaken there; it is the perception that the EU is changing that worries so many people. The status quo is not an option. | | | |
| Brexiters, why? on 21:02 - Apr 22 with 2558 views | Jack_Meoff |
| Brexiters, why? on 20:41 - Apr 22 by Swanzay |
Barack Obama says Brexit would leave UK at the 'back of the queue' on trade
Great news maybe then in the future actions by america handing out mortgages like confetti wont ruin our economy and take us into recession on a massive scale like 2008.
Besides our trade no longer exists we sold all our assets to China and the bloody french, we have sold all our skills!
we have little to tradeleft
Again think how much the NHS and such like could use £17 billion per year! |
I doubt we'd be at the back of the queue when asked to bomb/invade other nations. | |
| If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--forever. |
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| Brexiters, why? on 21:40 - Apr 22 with 2519 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Brexiters, why? on 21:02 - Apr 22 by Jack_Meoff |
I doubt we'd be at the back of the queue when asked to bomb/invade other nations. |
When the Americans try to strong arm us you know damn well it isn't in our interests. Let's get the f*ck out |  |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
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| Brexiters, why? on 21:48 - Apr 22 with 2509 views | jackrabbit |
| Brexiters, why? on 18:58 - Apr 22 by johnlangy |
A few points.
I'm not aware that Merkel has said to 75 million Turks they are welcome in Germany. Maybe you can point me in the direction of the report. But, if any Turks do go to Germany as a result of whatever agreement is reached they would not be EU citizens so would not be easily able to come to the UK. And why would they want to. I'd imagine the reason for going to Germany would be to live with or associate with family/friends/other Turks that already live there. I seem to remember reading that there is already a Turkish community in Germany of 11 million.
A panel of experts were interviewed on TV a week ago. One was a Civil Servant and she was asked the question about EU regulations and how they affected her work. She said she'd dealt with Education and the NHS in her 15 years as a Civil Servant and there was very little in the way of EU regulations that she had to deal with. I don't know about the other areas you mention.
A leap into the unknown. The unknown is what our relationship with the EU would be if we left. It has to be unknown because no one can predict what arrangements regarding trade will be agreed. We won't be able to just re-instate the free trade arrangement we had 40 years ago because it's not our decision to make. It would have to be agreed by the 27 remaining EU members. And as 50% of our exports are to the EU this is probably the most important consideration in making a decision.
'167 manage to exist without interference from Brussels, including the two most prosperous nations in Europe: Switzerland and Norway'. You're perfectly correct about the 167 and Switzerland and Norway. But, as has been pointed out many times Norway has a free trade deal with the EU which requires them to contribute to EU central funds while having no input into any decisions made within the EU. Also, as a result of accepting that free trade deal they also have had to accept free movement of EU citizens. I believe Switzerland has a similar agreement but stand to be corrected if I'm wrong. |
Merkel has promised Turkey free access to the Schengen area in exchange for Turkey agreeing to accept boatloads of migrants being returned from Greece. I don't know which 'report' it was published in, but it was reported widely in the media a few weeks ago. I'm surprised you missed it.
Yes there is a huge Turkish migrant population already in Germany and no doubt they will be swelled by another influx of relatives wanting to re-unite with family already there. But if you think that allowing 75 million Turks access to the Schengen area is not going to have an effect on the UK, I think you're suffering from an intense delusion. The U.K. Is a prime destination for migrants everywhere.
I don't know how old you are but I'm old enough to remember life pre- Common Market, and pre-EU. It was fairly unremarkable. We all survived. We're a major power in the world - the 5th largest economy. The EU is past its sell by date and is headed for self-destruction. We can do better on our own. We just need the confidence to do it. | | | |
| Brexiters, why? on 22:02 - Apr 22 with 2487 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Brexiters, why? on 21:48 - Apr 22 by jackrabbit |
Merkel has promised Turkey free access to the Schengen area in exchange for Turkey agreeing to accept boatloads of migrants being returned from Greece. I don't know which 'report' it was published in, but it was reported widely in the media a few weeks ago. I'm surprised you missed it.
Yes there is a huge Turkish migrant population already in Germany and no doubt they will be swelled by another influx of relatives wanting to re-unite with family already there. But if you think that allowing 75 million Turks access to the Schengen area is not going to have an effect on the UK, I think you're suffering from an intense delusion. The U.K. Is a prime destination for migrants everywhere.
I don't know how old you are but I'm old enough to remember life pre- Common Market, and pre-EU. It was fairly unremarkable. We all survived. We're a major power in the world - the 5th largest economy. The EU is past its sell by date and is headed for self-destruction. We can do better on our own. We just need the confidence to do it. |
And with Turkey's borders a little porous to say the least half of Syria and Iraq wil be coming in too. So Merkel's plan is a pile of steaming sh*t | |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
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| Brexiters, why? on 08:21 - Apr 23 with 2380 views | Lord_Bony |
I thought it was wrong of Obama to give a speech alongside Cameron saying how the US would send Britain to the back of the que for trade deals if we exit the European Union. Obviously written at No 10.
Wtf has this got to do with the Americans or anyone else outside of Europe.... Keep your noses out and mind your own business. The UK will be fine either way. |  |
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| Brexiters, why? on 09:15 - Apr 23 with 2167 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Brexiters, why? on 08:21 - Apr 23 by Lord_Bony |
I thought it was wrong of Obama to give a speech alongside Cameron saying how the US would send Britain to the back of the que for trade deals if we exit the European Union. Obviously written at No 10.
Wtf has this got to do with the Americans or anyone else outside of Europe.... Keep your noses out and mind your own business. The UK will be fine either way. |
The shoulder to shoulder spiel seems to have been well forgotten. At least we'll be "at the back of the queue" for any further invasions of other sovereign territories on the USA's behalf, helping the directors of independent oil contractors and construction companies making further money off the back of civilian misery.
Nice for our armed services personnel to be at the back of the queue for death and maiming too. | |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
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| Brexiters, why? on 09:41 - Apr 23 with 2140 views | ImAlrightJack |
| Brexiters, why? on 14:08 - Apr 22 by ymaohyd |
I want out and absolutely for the reasons of safety and control of immigration.
I get both points of view, understand the business community etc but for the life of me can't understand how any highly educated politician can argue that we are safer IN Europe.
As Scotland was hoodwinked into voting to stay in the UK I hope people aren't brainwashed in the same manner on this vote. |
Scotland didn't want to risk anything, all despite refusals to be part of the team GB football team and totally separated from the Lions rugby side.
UK in name only, in their own de facto terms, it's not British.
As for this EU thing, I think we're better out and can always rejoin if it don't work out. | | | |
| Brexiters, why? on 09:57 - Apr 23 with 2118 views | johnlangy |
| Brexiters, why? on 21:48 - Apr 22 by jackrabbit |
Merkel has promised Turkey free access to the Schengen area in exchange for Turkey agreeing to accept boatloads of migrants being returned from Greece. I don't know which 'report' it was published in, but it was reported widely in the media a few weeks ago. I'm surprised you missed it.
Yes there is a huge Turkish migrant population already in Germany and no doubt they will be swelled by another influx of relatives wanting to re-unite with family already there. But if you think that allowing 75 million Turks access to the Schengen area is not going to have an effect on the UK, I think you're suffering from an intense delusion. The U.K. Is a prime destination for migrants everywhere.
I don't know how old you are but I'm old enough to remember life pre- Common Market, and pre-EU. It was fairly unremarkable. We all survived. We're a major power in the world - the 5th largest economy. The EU is past its sell by date and is headed for self-destruction. We can do better on our own. We just need the confidence to do it. |
From what I remember that was an EU agreement with Turkey (not a German one) that said the EU would allow a number of Turks, equivalent to the numbers of migrants taken back by Turkey, access to the EU. And then only visa access not permanent access. I imagine that visa would allow access to all Schengen area countries which doesn't include the UK. Some of them may very well want to come to the UK but they'd probably try to gain access using their valid EU visas and we'd have the choice to say no.
'I don't know how old you are but I'm old enough to remember life pre- Common Market, and pre-EU. It was fairly unremarkable. We all survived. We're a major power in the world - the 5th largest economy'. Nothing to dispute there and I'm also old enough to remember (born 1950).
'The EU is past its sell by date and is headed for self-destruction. We can do better on our own. We just need the confidence to do it'. You may be right with your first sentence. I don't understand it all enough to comment. The second sentence ? We may very well do better on our own - eventually. But I believe it'll be painful for a good while before that happens.
I said in my first post that the question of trade is the most important consideration. People may vote to leave for all sorts of reasons but, if they then lose their job as a result of a trade agreement the structure of which can't be predicted now, they may very well regret voting leave. | | | |
| Brexiters, why? on 16:22 - Apr 23 with 2033 views | Davillin |
| Brexiters, why? on 08:21 - Apr 23 by Lord_Bony |
I thought it was wrong of Obama to give a speech alongside Cameron saying how the US would send Britain to the back of the que for trade deals if we exit the European Union. Obviously written at No 10.
Wtf has this got to do with the Americans or anyone else outside of Europe.... Keep your noses out and mind your own business. The UK will be fine either way. |
LB, I have spent about 20 minutes trying to find the text of that speech. I remember him not saying "the US would send Britain to the back of the que [sic]," but that Britain would not do well from the back of the queue, or words to that effect.
I will stand corrected if someone will show me the literal text.
I rush to point out that I do not "defend" obama, as I think he has been the absolute worst president the U.S. has ever had, turning everything he touches into shit.
[I just do not want anyone to think that he speaks for the U.S., because he doesn't.] |  |
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| Brexiters, why? on 16:45 - Apr 23 with 2017 views | Lord_Bony |
| Brexiters, why? on 16:22 - Apr 23 by Davillin |
LB, I have spent about 20 minutes trying to find the text of that speech. I remember him not saying "the US would send Britain to the back of the que [sic]," but that Britain would not do well from the back of the queue, or words to that effect.
I will stand corrected if someone will show me the literal text.
I rush to point out that I do not "defend" obama, as I think he has been the absolute worst president the U.S. has ever had, turning everything he touches into shit.
[I just do not want anyone to think that he speaks for the U.S., because he doesn't.] |
The speech I think was made yesterday from Downing Street.
It's just the principle of it, this is a very important decision for people to think about, we don't need scare mongering from a president who is about to leave office...he should keep his opinion to himself as the next president may have totally different policy towards trading with us.
How would Americans like it if Cameron came over there advising people which way to vote on some issue for the American people... It would nt go down well... | |
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| Brexiters, why? on 17:07 - Apr 23 with 2007 views | exiledclaseboy |
The crux of Obama's words was that the USA's priority would be to negotiate a trade agreement with a large, multi-nation bloc rather than prioritise such an agreement with a single nation like the UK.
"And on that matter, for example, I think it’s fair to say that maybe some point down the line there might be a UK-US trade agreement, but it’s not going to happen any time soon because our focus is in negotiating with a big bloc, the European Union, to get a trade agreement done. The U.K. Is going to be in the back of the queue."
Which of course makes sense for the president of the USA to put the USA's interests first. | |
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| Brexiters, why? on 17:17 - Apr 23 with 1990 views | longlostjack |
| Brexiters, why? on 18:44 - Apr 22 by Wingstandwood |
Immigration is a major worry for many! When you read the newspapers and they quote yearly figures that tend to be the equivalent of the population of a very large city? People think how can the U.K's economy/overstretched public services etc cope until breaking/crisis point is reached?
Speaking as a construction industry employee I can honestly say that immigration has driven down wages, working conditions and employment prospects of indigenous born and bred U.K citizens. You get Eastern Europeans being paid well bellow what would be considered 'the-going-rate' because its still way above the wage of their own countries. The irony is?..... Many work to save and sent a large percentage of it back home giving minimal personal spending returns to the U.K economy. How many Eastern Europeans are coming over here and how many of our fellow Brits are going over there to work cos I have not met or known one Brit to do so! |
If construction companies were forced to pay a decent wage eg. have tariff agreements that they are legally bound to, there wouldn't be a problem. The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists is a great book, have a read if you haven't already. Auf Wiedersehen pet ! |  |
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| Brexiters, why? on 17:24 - Apr 23 with 1986 views | Lohengrin |
| Brexiters, why? on 17:07 - Apr 23 by exiledclaseboy |
The crux of Obama's words was that the USA's priority would be to negotiate a trade agreement with a large, multi-nation bloc rather than prioritise such an agreement with a single nation like the UK.
"And on that matter, for example, I think it’s fair to say that maybe some point down the line there might be a UK-US trade agreement, but it’s not going to happen any time soon because our focus is in negotiating with a big bloc, the European Union, to get a trade agreement done. The U.K. Is going to be in the back of the queue."
Which of course makes sense for the president of the USA to put the USA's interests first. |
From a pro-European standpoint Obama's intervention has been disastrous, all it has done is raise hackles and given the Outers a turbo-boost. |  |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Brexiters, why? on 17:27 - Apr 23 with 1975 views | Davillin |
| Brexiters, why? on 16:45 - Apr 23 by Lord_Bony |
The speech I think was made yesterday from Downing Street.
It's just the principle of it, this is a very important decision for people to think about, we don't need scare mongering from a president who is about to leave office...he should keep his opinion to himself as the next president may have totally different policy towards trading with us.
How would Americans like it if Cameron came over there advising people which way to vote on some issue for the American people... It would nt go down well... |
I think you might not have understood my previous post.
I agree completely with your post, above, in every word. I just don't want a misquote to be added to his inane crap; and I don't want posters on here -- or anyone else -- to think he speaks for the U.S.
obama thinks he is the most intelligent person on the planet and that everyone who doesn't agree with him is a stupid c*nt [he'd fit in well here on PlanetSwans]. And he's not satisfied being dictator for the U.S., but wants to be so for the world. | |
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| Brexiters, why? on 17:28 - Apr 23 with 1972 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Brexiters, why? on 17:24 - Apr 23 by Lohengrin |
From a pro-European standpoint Obama's intervention has been disastrous, all it has done is raise hackles and given the Outers a turbo-boost. |
Yes I completely agree. But when you consider that the "remain" campaign is led by mostly idiots who think that the way to persuade people to their point of view is to try to scare them senseless rather than make the positive arguments for the Union it becomes less of a surprise. | |
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