| Ken Livingstone 14:02 - Apr 28 with 21451 views | Darran |
C*nt,end of.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  |
| |  |
| Ken Livingstone on 20:37 - May 3 with 1253 views | trampie |
Anyone seen the news regarding Swansea council and a Jewish group in the news today ?, talk is its going to cost the council therefore Swansea people a lot of money to defend themselves. |  |
| |
| Ken Livingstone on 20:43 - May 3 with 1245 views | trampie |
| Ken Livingstone on 20:05 - May 3 by blueytheblue |
Already been answered. You might not like or want to believe the answer, but it's been answered. |
What did Ken say that was anti-Semitic ?, it hasn't been answered, so since you are attacking Livingstone can you tell the message-board what did he say that was anti-Semitic ? [Post edited 3 May 2016 21:45]
| |
| |
| Ken Livingstone on 20:47 - May 3 with 1239 views | trampie |
| Ken Livingstone on 18:55 - May 3 by blueytheblue |
Apart from the whole bit that anti-semites hate all Jews not just Israeli Jews... meaning hate of Israeli Jews is ok, just not Israeli Arabs et al... |
he doesn't actually say that, does he? [Post edited 3 May 2016 20:54]
| |
| |
| Ken Livingstone on 20:48 - May 3 with 1239 views | jackonicko |
| Ken Livingstone on 20:25 - May 3 by sherpajacob |
so which specific statement is it then?
I'm not defending him, I just want to know what Livinsgtone said in all the full transcripts that is anti semitic.
The independent has quoted everything he said.
somebody please cut and paste the bit that is anti-Semitic. [Post edited 3 May 2016 20:28]
|
Look, I'm sure the whole Paxman thing is fun. But following your binary argument, nothing anyone says here will satisfy you unless they find a quote where KL said "I hate Jews".
I'll save you and anyone else the bother. He didn't say "I hate Jews." If that's what you are looking for then well done, you win.
Funnily enough, there aren't many people who did commit things like "I hate Jews" in writing. Well, apart from Hitler, obviously. And about 20 years before the timeline KL himself suggested that Hitler "went mad" and exterminated 6 million Jews.
I don't profess to be an expert on Israel, Zionism or anti-semitism. But I do have a basic grasp of history. Hitler talked about gassing Jews shortly after WW1. His writings in Mein Kampf are documented on this very thread. That was published in the 1920s. So KL referencing Hitler the way he did in relation to the 1930s shows - at best - a distinctly low grasp of secondary school history. At worst, a level of disingenuousness which many could perceive as having deeper, darker undertones. Which when articulated by someone like KL is both dangerous and worrying.
Even if he has had two Jewish girlfriends. I'm sure some of his best friends are Jews too. |  | | |
| Ken Livingstone on 20:49 - May 3 with 1238 views | trampie |
| Ken Livingstone on 20:19 - May 3 by Kerouac |
What do you want as proof?
a quote saying "I hate Jews I do!"?
Carry on defending him as you are demonstrating the problem the Labour party has got.
- McDonnell, editor of the 'Morning Star' when it used to print anti-semitic articles and cartoons regularly.
- Corbyn sharing platforms with all kinds of Islamic terrorist supporters and apologists.
- Corbyn's son's dodgy stuff on the internet
- Young Labour female Muslims complaining they can't get selected in seats where there are large Islamic constituencies because the Muslim elders forbid it and have things stitched up with the local Labour party.
- Postal ballot fraud, mostly committed by Labour members who are Muslims
- Naz Shah admitting she wished Israelis could be exiled to the States in the days when she didn't have to watch what she said.
- Ken Livingstone's long history of not just criticising Israel but sticking the knife in regarding what took place in Nazi Germany in our grandfather's generation.
- and his latest "Hitler supported Zionism" in defence of Shah's comments
......builds a picture don't you think. |
What did he actually say that was anti-Semitic ? | |
| |
| Ken Livingstone on 20:59 - May 3 with 1211 views | sherpajacob |
| Ken Livingstone on 20:48 - May 3 by jackonicko |
Look, I'm sure the whole Paxman thing is fun. But following your binary argument, nothing anyone says here will satisfy you unless they find a quote where KL said "I hate Jews".
I'll save you and anyone else the bother. He didn't say "I hate Jews." If that's what you are looking for then well done, you win.
Funnily enough, there aren't many people who did commit things like "I hate Jews" in writing. Well, apart from Hitler, obviously. And about 20 years before the timeline KL himself suggested that Hitler "went mad" and exterminated 6 million Jews.
I don't profess to be an expert on Israel, Zionism or anti-semitism. But I do have a basic grasp of history. Hitler talked about gassing Jews shortly after WW1. His writings in Mein Kampf are documented on this very thread. That was published in the 1920s. So KL referencing Hitler the way he did in relation to the 1930s shows - at best - a distinctly low grasp of secondary school history. At worst, a level of disingenuousness which many could perceive as having deeper, darker undertones. Which when articulated by someone like KL is both dangerous and worrying.
Even if he has had two Jewish girlfriends. I'm sure some of his best friends are Jews too. |
so he's been suspended for making anti semitic comments, although nobody can identify or pinpoint which comment was anti semitic.
I'm not defending him or attacking him, it just seems a basic principle of a free country that some sort of proof or evidence is required before a person can be judged. |  |
| |
| Ken Livingstone on 21:02 - May 3 with 1190 views | jackonicko |
| Ken Livingstone on 20:59 - May 3 by sherpajacob |
so he's been suspended for making anti semitic comments, although nobody can identify or pinpoint which comment was anti semitic.
I'm not defending him or attacking him, it just seems a basic principle of a free country that some sort of proof or evidence is required before a person can be judged. |
What, sort of like a suspension pending an investigation?
What a good idea. | | | |
| Ken Livingstone on 21:09 - May 3 with 1175 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Ken Livingstone on 21:02 - May 3 by jackonicko |
What, sort of like a suspension pending an investigation?
What a good idea. |
Not much of am investigation needed though really. The words have been in the public domain in full since he uttered them. Perry Mason not required. Unless he has an insight into RedKen's psyche. [Post edited 3 May 2016 21:09]
|  |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Ken Livingstone on 21:15 - May 3 with 1160 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Ken Livingstone on 20:59 - May 3 by sherpajacob |
so he's been suspended for making anti semitic comments, although nobody can identify or pinpoint which comment was anti semitic.
I'm not defending him or attacking him, it just seems a basic principle of a free country that some sort of proof or evidence is required before a person can be judged. |
Livingstone was suspended for refusing to condemn the remarks of Naz Shah as anti Semitic (which they undoubtedly were - she admitted as much) and trying to contextualise them by reference to Hitler.
This follows a fairly long history of similar remarks.
If Livingstone treated Jewish people in the same way as he treats any other minority they would not have been made.
Whether or not you find them anti Semitic is neither here nor there - the Labour leadership found that there was enough of a possibility that they were to suspend him while they investigated further.
As has been said on this thread, there is nothing wrong with condemnation of Israel as a state anymore than there is nothing wrong with condemnation of the actions of any other state. However, when that condemnation is extrapolated to Jewish people (which it sometimes is) it becomes unacceptable. That extrapolation is relatively frequent - I have several close friends who are Jewish and fundamentally disagree with the actions of Israel. However, as I have said before, people like Livingstone never extrapolate the actions of Saudi to ordinary Moslems and yet they feel free to do so in the case of Israel and the Jews.
Believe it, don't believe it, but he has a history of it. |  | | |
| Ken Livingstone on 21:18 - May 3 with 1151 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
| Ken Livingstone on 21:15 - May 3 by londonlisa2001 |
Livingstone was suspended for refusing to condemn the remarks of Naz Shah as anti Semitic (which they undoubtedly were - she admitted as much) and trying to contextualise them by reference to Hitler.
This follows a fairly long history of similar remarks.
If Livingstone treated Jewish people in the same way as he treats any other minority they would not have been made.
Whether or not you find them anti Semitic is neither here nor there - the Labour leadership found that there was enough of a possibility that they were to suspend him while they investigated further.
As has been said on this thread, there is nothing wrong with condemnation of Israel as a state anymore than there is nothing wrong with condemnation of the actions of any other state. However, when that condemnation is extrapolated to Jewish people (which it sometimes is) it becomes unacceptable. That extrapolation is relatively frequent - I have several close friends who are Jewish and fundamentally disagree with the actions of Israel. However, as I have said before, people like Livingstone never extrapolate the actions of Saudi to ordinary Moslems and yet they feel free to do so in the case of Israel and the Jews.
Believe it, don't believe it, but he has a history of it. |
Indeed
Saudis are another horrid bunch . |  |
| |
| Ken Livingstone on 21:33 - May 3 with 1135 views | Badgeman |
He tried to defend anti-Semitic comments by quoting Hitler. That reads like textbook antisemitism to me. |  |
| |
| Ken Livingstone on 22:04 - May 3 with 1103 views | sherpajacob |
| Ken Livingstone on 21:15 - May 3 by londonlisa2001 |
Livingstone was suspended for refusing to condemn the remarks of Naz Shah as anti Semitic (which they undoubtedly were - she admitted as much) and trying to contextualise them by reference to Hitler.
This follows a fairly long history of similar remarks.
If Livingstone treated Jewish people in the same way as he treats any other minority they would not have been made.
Whether or not you find them anti Semitic is neither here nor there - the Labour leadership found that there was enough of a possibility that they were to suspend him while they investigated further.
As has been said on this thread, there is nothing wrong with condemnation of Israel as a state anymore than there is nothing wrong with condemnation of the actions of any other state. However, when that condemnation is extrapolated to Jewish people (which it sometimes is) it becomes unacceptable. That extrapolation is relatively frequent - I have several close friends who are Jewish and fundamentally disagree with the actions of Israel. However, as I have said before, people like Livingstone never extrapolate the actions of Saudi to ordinary Moslems and yet they feel free to do so in the case of Israel and the Jews.
Believe it, don't believe it, but he has a history of it. |
From the transcript Livingstone doesn't extrapolate criticism of israel to all Jewish people.
In fact he does the opposite, and clearly differentiates between anti semitism and criticism of israel
" I think blurring these two things undermines the importance of antisemitism because a real antisemite doesn’t just hate the Jews in Israel, they hate their Jewish neighbours in Golders Green or Stoke Newington, it’s a physical loathing." [Post edited 3 May 2016 22:33]
| |
| |
| Ken Livingstone on 22:34 - May 3 with 1058 views | trampie |
Just reading about Swansea council being accused of being anti-Semitic, Beeb and the South Wales Evening post reporting the story, 2 interesting comments by readers about the story in the post. | |
| |
| Ken Livingstone on 23:38 - May 3 with 1019 views | blueytheblue |
| Ken Livingstone on 22:04 - May 3 by sherpajacob |
From the transcript Livingstone doesn't extrapolate criticism of israel to all Jewish people.
In fact he does the opposite, and clearly differentiates between anti semitism and criticism of israel
" I think blurring these two things undermines the importance of antisemitism because a real antisemite doesn’t just hate the Jews in Israel, they hate their Jewish neighbours in Golders Green or Stoke Newington, it’s a physical loathing." [Post edited 3 May 2016 22:33]
|
"doesn't just hate the Jews in Israel".
Nothing about Arabs, Christians, athiests et al. All of who are Israeli. Leaving that aside, what he said was...
"a real antisemite doesn’t just hate the Jews in Israel"
So what are those people who hate the Jews then? Justified in Ken's mind? Does Ken even grasp that "Jews" is a dumb view, something Trampie would use? There are liberal Jews, orthodox Jews... all different, some of whom even protest against Israeli government policies. Kenny boy lumps all Jews into one group...
Criticism of Israel in itself isn't anti-semitic. Criticism of Israel can be driven by anti-semitism. Ken well knows that as does anyone with a half working brain cell. The latter is deplorable because it's using the whole Palestinian issue to attack Jews and Israel, not out of any particular desire to improve the lot of the Palestinians. | |
| |
| Ken Livingstone on 08:23 - May 4 with 982 views | trampie |
It seems that it is not just Swansea council that is getting taken on being accused of anti-Semitism but a North Wales council as well, adding to a list including a council in the English midlands as well as a formal complaint against a well known registered charity. | |
| |
| Ken Livingstone on 08:32 - May 4 with 929 views | sherpajacob |
| Ken Livingstone on 23:38 - May 3 by blueytheblue |
"doesn't just hate the Jews in Israel".
Nothing about Arabs, Christians, athiests et al. All of who are Israeli. Leaving that aside, what he said was...
"a real antisemite doesn’t just hate the Jews in Israel"
So what are those people who hate the Jews then? Justified in Ken's mind? Does Ken even grasp that "Jews" is a dumb view, something Trampie would use? There are liberal Jews, orthodox Jews... all different, some of whom even protest against Israeli government policies. Kenny boy lumps all Jews into one group...
Criticism of Israel in itself isn't anti-semitic. Criticism of Israel can be driven by anti-semitism. Ken well knows that as does anyone with a half working brain cell. The latter is deplorable because it's using the whole Palestinian issue to attack Jews and Israel, not out of any particular desire to improve the lot of the Palestinians. |
It appears that you have a problem with what Livingstone didn't say, rather than what he did say.
He didn't say anybody hates only the Jews in Israel. | |
| |
| Ken Livingstone on 09:16 - May 4 with 893 views | trampie |
How many people are going to leave the Labour party because some of the leaders seem to be calling for Ken Livingstone to be expelled ?, when a lot of rank and file members think he is innocent of accusations labelled against him.
On a Welsh rugby site one of the boys has put up an email he apparently received from Carwyn Jones and his reply back, seems like he will resign his membership if Livingstone is forced out, how many other rank and file Labour party members feel the same way I wonder ? [Post edited 4 May 2016 9:37]
| |
| |
| Ken Livingstone on 09:25 - May 4 with 881 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
The palestinian's did'nt choose who occupied their land , if the whole of the welsh Nation were moved in to occupy their land they would have still fought the Welsh trying to remove them .
Israel is a vile nasty state who just happen to be linked to a religion . | |
| |
| Ken Livingstone on 09:49 - May 4 with 867 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Ken Livingstone on 09:25 - May 4 by oh_tommy_tommy |
The palestinian's did'nt choose who occupied their land , if the whole of the welsh Nation were moved in to occupy their land they would have still fought the Welsh trying to remove them .
Israel is a vile nasty state who just happen to be linked to a religion . |
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people
For the record, Semite isn't just a term for Jews, but others also, most notably levantine Arabs. All have close genetic relations which makes the whole conflict ridiculous .
The racism coming from the Israelis and inflicted on the Palestinians (which could also be interpreted as anti semitism) and the hatred coming back to them will take generations to heal.
Livingstone has to make clear his dislike for the concept of Israel as a Jewish only state and not be left accused of hating all Jews. Wether he does or not of course only Ken knows |  |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
| |
| Ken Livingstone on 10:29 - May 4 with 846 views | waynekerr55 |
| Ken Livingstone on 09:49 - May 4 by Brynmill_Jack |
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people
For the record, Semite isn't just a term for Jews, but others also, most notably levantine Arabs. All have close genetic relations which makes the whole conflict ridiculous .
The racism coming from the Israelis and inflicted on the Palestinians (which could also be interpreted as anti semitism) and the hatred coming back to them will take generations to heal.
Livingstone has to make clear his dislike for the concept of Israel as a Jewish only state and not be left accused of hating all Jews. Wether he does or not of course only Ken knows |
Will it ever be healed Bryn?
I'm not sure it will |  |
| |
| Ken Livingstone on 11:13 - May 4 with 821 views | Kerouac |
| Ken Livingstone on 09:25 - May 4 by oh_tommy_tommy |
The palestinian's did'nt choose who occupied their land , if the whole of the welsh Nation were moved in to occupy their land they would have still fought the Welsh trying to remove them .
Israel is a vile nasty state who just happen to be linked to a religion . |
They are not as vile and nasty as the likes of Syria, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia or even Turkey....who also just happen to be linked to a religion.
....and the correct analogy would be;
If us Welsh had been largely expelled from our lands over a period of a 1000 years (the minority of Welsh people that remained treated no better than dogs, bullied and violently attacked, forced to live in a constant state of fear) and after centuries of us Welsh ex-pats being subjected to abuse in the societies we have emigrated to (culminating in 6 million of us being murdered by the Germans) we return home to get our land back and expel the English people largely responsible for our original exile and the abuse of the Welsh we had left behind.
and there you are having a good old cry for the English/Arabs for all of their suffering....boo hoo.
Good on the Israeli Jews.
3 times the Arabs have ganged up to invade Israel and they have been repelled every time.
That's how you fight when you have genuinely been wronged and subjugated Tramp. That's how you fight when your culture has been suppressed, suffocated for centuries...when your women and children have been attacked and murdered.
They are not just playing at it. |  |
| |
| Ken Livingstone on 11:22 - May 4 with 809 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
| Ken Livingstone on 11:13 - May 4 by Kerouac |
They are not as vile and nasty as the likes of Syria, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia or even Turkey....who also just happen to be linked to a religion.
....and the correct analogy would be;
If us Welsh had been largely expelled from our lands over a period of a 1000 years (the minority of Welsh people that remained treated no better than dogs, bullied and violently attacked, forced to live in a constant state of fear) and after centuries of us Welsh ex-pats being subjected to abuse in the societies we have emigrated to (culminating in 6 million of us being murdered by the Germans) we return home to get our land back and expel the English people largely responsible for our original exile and the abuse of the Welsh we had left behind.
and there you are having a good old cry for the English/Arabs for all of their suffering....boo hoo.
Good on the Israeli Jews.
3 times the Arabs have ganged up to invade Israel and they have been repelled every time.
That's how you fight when you have genuinely been wronged and subjugated Tramp. That's how you fight when your culture has been suppressed, suffocated for centuries...when your women and children have been attacked and murdered.
They are not just playing at it. |
Well indeed
You'd think they would have learned lessons over the way they've treated the Palestinians then ?
Edit , I read the post wrong . [Post edited 4 May 2016 11:26]
| |
| |
| Ken Livingstone on 11:29 - May 4 with 799 views | Lord_Bony |
Criticism of the Israeli Government and armed forces is not a criticism of the Jewish faith or peoples.
The way Netanyahu has run the country and the atrocities he has committed against other people is condemned world wide.
That is no reflection on Judaism. |  |
| |
| Ken Livingstone on 11:35 - May 4 with 789 views | blueytheblue |
Criticism of Israel can be anti-semitic, silly to claim otherwise.
One "friend" of my wife's wrote to her on social media giving a long list of issues with Israel - some valid, some utterly incorrect. Criticism of Israel, fine.
He then ended it with "Typical f***ing Jews".
So how precisely should that be regarded? Criticism, anti-semitism or criticism driven by anti-semitism? | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
