| Labour 07:21 - May 6 with 4096 views | builthjack |
A lot more popular than we think. It shows what people think of the Tory's I guess. |  |
| Swansea Indepenent Poster Of The Year 2021. Dr P / Mart66 / Roathie / Parlay / E20/ Duffle was 2nd, but he is deluded and thinks in his little twisted brain that he won. Poor sod. We let him win this year, as he has cried for a whole year. His 14 usernames, bless his cotton socks.
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| Labour on 19:06 - May 6 with 861 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Labour on 18:24 - May 6 by londonlisa2001 |
No, not entirely as we don't have the numbers who want independence.
But as a unifying voice of a country, its political soul if you like, then yes they can.
Scotland is also very divided it's easy to forget. Glasgow and Edinburgh historically don't like each other, the Highlanders don't like the Lowlanders, the Islanders don't like anyone, Aberdeen is a different country in many ways.
The SNP have a similar background to Plaid - used to be a lot more right of centre than now (they propped up Maggie lest younger people forget). But even though they've moved left, the policies aren't particularly anti big business or achievement (people like Mhairi Black are not the norm). They talk in some ways about a socialist agenda but there's no sign of it in practice (will be interested to see their tax policies from now on). They certainly don't talk that way when it comes to attracting business to Scotland.
Plaid won't unify anyone while they try to adopt this 'lefter than thou' stance. Fine being a voice for social justice, but social justice doesn't mean increasing handouts. It means building a vibrant but fair economy that doesn't leave people behind but also doesn't hold them back. Harmonise up not down. Encourage big business to Wales not moan that all big businesses are the devil incarnate.
As a small example, I read a few comments on here (I think it was wingstandwood) talking about posh gits and the opera house in Cardiff. I've never read a more anti Plaid comment in my life and yet he/she was urging people to vote Plaid. Plaid should be aspirational for Wales and every Welsh resident (irrespective of whether or not they were born in Wales or England Trampie) and particularly every Welsh child. They shouldn't be bitter on Wales' behalf. |
How did the SNP prop up Thatcher? She was elected three times with thumping majorities. Genuine question. |  |
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| Labour on 19:11 - May 6 with 852 views | exiledclaseboy |
Anyone still labouring (pun intended) under the notion that the BBC favours Labour must surely have been disavowed of that notion today. Its coverage (at least on the radio, I haven't seen much TV) has been solely "Tory triumph, Labour despair". It was neither of things, merely an ok night for both parties. The BBC is terrified of its own shadow and it's a sad sight to see.
If last night proved anything it's that the UK is now firmly a multi party country. The days of majority governments will be long gone when Westminster finally (but inevitably) moves to a fairer, more proportional voting system. | |
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| Labour on 19:14 - May 6 with 849 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Labour on 19:06 - May 6 by exiledclaseboy |
How did the SNP prop up Thatcher? She was elected three times with thumping majorities. Genuine question. |
It was the SNP that tabled the vote of no confidence in Callahan that caused the election that brought Thatcher in in 1979.
They then made a deal with thatcher that they would vote with her and she tabled her own motion as leader of the opposition (which then took precedence). She won with one vote and the eleven SNP MPs all voted with her to bring down the labour government.
So perhaps less propped her up and more brought her in. |  | | |
| Labour on 19:19 - May 6 with 840 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Labour on 19:14 - May 6 by londonlisa2001 |
It was the SNP that tabled the vote of no confidence in Callahan that caused the election that brought Thatcher in in 1979.
They then made a deal with thatcher that they would vote with her and she tabled her own motion as leader of the opposition (which then took precedence). She won with one vote and the eleven SNP MPs all voted with her to bring down the labour government.
So perhaps less propped her up and more brought her in. |
I see. Even "brought her in" is a stretch to be honest. The no confidence vote just brought forward the inevitable. Callaghan could have struggled on for another few months until he had to call an election but the end result would have been the same. | |
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| Labour on 19:19 - May 6 with 839 views | CountyJim |
Have to say im a happy Labour supporter tonight with the one Lib Dem they can run the Government
Be interesting who will be the Speaker |  | | |
| Labour on 19:24 - May 6 with 829 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Labour on 19:19 - May 6 by CountyJim |
Have to say im a happy Labour supporter tonight with the one Lib Dem they can run the Government
Be interesting who will be the Speaker |
They could have quite comfortably run a minority government with a few seats less. No way will a combined opposition consisting of Tories, Plaid and UKIP be organised or United enough to put up much of a resistance. Labour certainly doesn't need to bother with any kind of formal deal. | |
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| Labour on 19:28 - May 6 with 813 views | nice_to_michu |
| Labour on 18:24 - May 6 by londonlisa2001 |
No, not entirely as we don't have the numbers who want independence.
But as a unifying voice of a country, its political soul if you like, then yes they can.
Scotland is also very divided it's easy to forget. Glasgow and Edinburgh historically don't like each other, the Highlanders don't like the Lowlanders, the Islanders don't like anyone, Aberdeen is a different country in many ways.
The SNP have a similar background to Plaid - used to be a lot more right of centre than now (they propped up Maggie lest younger people forget). But even though they've moved left, the policies aren't particularly anti big business or achievement (people like Mhairi Black are not the norm). They talk in some ways about a socialist agenda but there's no sign of it in practice (will be interested to see their tax policies from now on). They certainly don't talk that way when it comes to attracting business to Scotland.
Plaid won't unify anyone while they try to adopt this 'lefter than thou' stance. Fine being a voice for social justice, but social justice doesn't mean increasing handouts. It means building a vibrant but fair economy that doesn't leave people behind but also doesn't hold them back. Harmonise up not down. Encourage big business to Wales not moan that all big businesses are the devil incarnate.
As a small example, I read a few comments on here (I think it was wingstandwood) talking about posh gits and the opera house in Cardiff. I've never read a more anti Plaid comment in my life and yet he/she was urging people to vote Plaid. Plaid should be aspirational for Wales and every Welsh resident (irrespective of whether or not they were born in Wales or England Trampie) and particularly every Welsh child. They shouldn't be bitter on Wales' behalf. |
You make some good points.
I particularly agree with your assessment of the SNP. It has become trendy to refer to the SNP as the "socialist option" in Scotland and to describe Scottish Labour as right-wing. That is a mistake. They are nationalists and populists, and cleverly found that spouting socialist rhetoric from the leader (despite its core members being anything but socialists), is a good vehicle through which it can get votes and maybe get a referendum, and to that extent they have been successful.
There are similarities to be drawn between Plaid and the SNP, in that respect. Plaid's commitment to a left-wing agenda is wafer-thin, and will only last as long as Leanne Wood stays in power as there aren't many socialists within the membership or elected representatives.
On another note, I think it's interesting to see how important the "personal vote" has been in recent elections for the minor parties. Leanne Wood is undoubtedly popular, as reflected in her outstanding performance in Rhondda. The same can be be said of Kirsty Williams or the Lib Dems, who is clearly well respected amongst her own constituents. You also have Ruth Davidson, leader of the Scottish Conservatives, who seems to have had a good night. And then obviously there is Nicola Sturgeon, who seems as popular as ever, and much more so than her predecessor, Alex Salmon.
So, strong female leaders appear to have done quite well and well good luck to them. We'll have to see if the major national parties follow suit. Just an observation.
You mentioned you will wait and see how the SNP handles tax policy with its new powers. Well, they have already said they won't increase taxes, which just goes to confirm the points you made. [Post edited 6 May 2016 19:31]
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| Labour on 19:28 - May 6 with 813 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Labour on 19:19 - May 6 by exiledclaseboy |
I see. Even "brought her in" is a stretch to be honest. The no confidence vote just brought forward the inevitable. Callaghan could have struggled on for another few months until he had to call an election but the end result would have been the same. |
Supported her if you prefer.
Doesn't really matter how described - the point I was making is that they were a lot more right of centre in those days than now and were happy to support the conservative opposition if it suited them in their quest for devolution.
Their policies (as opposed to their rhetoric) are often not very left of centre these days. | | | |
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| Labour on 19:30 - May 6 with 811 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Labour on 19:28 - May 6 by londonlisa2001 |
Supported her if you prefer.
Doesn't really matter how described - the point I was making is that they were a lot more right of centre in those days than now and were happy to support the conservative opposition if it suited them in their quest for devolution.
Their policies (as opposed to their rhetoric) are often not very left of centre these days. |
Yes I agree with you. Although as a party whose main focus was at that time, achieving devolution I frankly don't blame them given the way they were screwed after the 1979 referendum. | |
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| Labour on 19:32 - May 6 with 807 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Labour on 19:28 - May 6 by nice_to_michu |
You make some good points.
I particularly agree with your assessment of the SNP. It has become trendy to refer to the SNP as the "socialist option" in Scotland and to describe Scottish Labour as right-wing. That is a mistake. They are nationalists and populists, and cleverly found that spouting socialist rhetoric from the leader (despite its core members being anything but socialists), is a good vehicle through which it can get votes and maybe get a referendum, and to that extent they have been successful.
There are similarities to be drawn between Plaid and the SNP, in that respect. Plaid's commitment to a left-wing agenda is wafer-thin, and will only last as long as Leanne Wood stays in power as there aren't many socialists within the membership or elected representatives.
On another note, I think it's interesting to see how important the "personal vote" has been in recent elections for the minor parties. Leanne Wood is undoubtedly popular, as reflected in her outstanding performance in Rhondda. The same can be be said of Kirsty Williams or the Lib Dems, who is clearly well respected amongst her own constituents. You also have Ruth Davidson, leader of the Scottish Conservatives, who seems to have had a good night. And then obviously there is Nicola Sturgeon, who seems as popular as ever, and much more so than her predecessor, Alex Salmon.
So, strong female leaders appear to have done quite well and well good luck to them. We'll have to see if the major national parties follow suit. Just an observation.
You mentioned you will wait and see how the SNP handles tax policy with its new powers. Well, they have already said they won't increase taxes, which just goes to confirm the points you made. [Post edited 6 May 2016 19:31]
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Excellent post. Nationalist are birds of a feather, regardless of which nationalism they support. It's an ugly, divisive, destructive creed as a cursory read of the nats in this forum will confirm. [Post edited 6 May 2016 19:44]
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| Labour on 19:33 - May 6 with 806 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Labour on 19:28 - May 6 by nice_to_michu |
You make some good points.
I particularly agree with your assessment of the SNP. It has become trendy to refer to the SNP as the "socialist option" in Scotland and to describe Scottish Labour as right-wing. That is a mistake. They are nationalists and populists, and cleverly found that spouting socialist rhetoric from the leader (despite its core members being anything but socialists), is a good vehicle through which it can get votes and maybe get a referendum, and to that extent they have been successful.
There are similarities to be drawn between Plaid and the SNP, in that respect. Plaid's commitment to a left-wing agenda is wafer-thin, and will only last as long as Leanne Wood stays in power as there aren't many socialists within the membership or elected representatives.
On another note, I think it's interesting to see how important the "personal vote" has been in recent elections for the minor parties. Leanne Wood is undoubtedly popular, as reflected in her outstanding performance in Rhondda. The same can be be said of Kirsty Williams or the Lib Dems, who is clearly well respected amongst her own constituents. You also have Ruth Davidson, leader of the Scottish Conservatives, who seems to have had a good night. And then obviously there is Nicola Sturgeon, who seems as popular as ever, and much more so than her predecessor, Alex Salmon.
So, strong female leaders appear to have done quite well and well good luck to them. We'll have to see if the major national parties follow suit. Just an observation.
You mentioned you will wait and see how the SNP handles tax policy with its new powers. Well, they have already said they won't increase taxes, which just goes to confirm the points you made. [Post edited 6 May 2016 19:31]
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Have they said that?
I didn't realise although it was expected that they wouldn't.
The cult of personality though does loom large - we've had it in London with Boris, who despite being a quite odious tosser is liked as a personality for reasons beyond my comprehension. | | | |
| Labour on 19:36 - May 6 with 798 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Labour on 19:30 - May 6 by exiledclaseboy |
Yes I agree with you. Although as a party whose main focus was at that time, achieving devolution I frankly don't blame them given the way they were screwed after the 1979 referendum. |
I don't blame them either.
It's just that this 'ooh, we're so left wing' stuff spouted by people like Mhairi Black is a joke.
Wonder how that arm of the SNP will now react if 'the rich' are not taxed to spend on public services. It's such nonsense. | | | |
| Labour on 19:39 - May 6 with 792 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Labour on 19:32 - May 6 by exiledclaseboy |
Excellent post. Nationalist are birds of a feather, regardless of which nationalism they support. It's an ugly, divisive, destructive creed as a cursory read of the nats in this forum will confirm. [Post edited 6 May 2016 19:44]
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I agree with you on nationalism. However, I do think Plaid could be a vital voice for Wales (all of Wales, irrespective of any of that nationalist type nonsense some supporters spout, almost incessantly it seems).
Not with this leadership though they won't be. | | | |
| Labour on 19:48 - May 6 with 771 views | nice_to_michu |
| Labour on 19:33 - May 6 by londonlisa2001 |
Have they said that?
I didn't realise although it was expected that they wouldn't.
The cult of personality though does loom large - we've had it in London with Boris, who despite being a quite odious tosser is liked as a personality for reasons beyond my comprehension. |
Yes, Sturgeon ruled out a 50p top rate of tax. Then a few days later, after people saw them for their true colours, she backtracked and said they may bring it in at some point in the future. | | | |
| Labour on 19:53 - May 6 with 762 views | nice_to_michu |
| Labour on 19:32 - May 6 by exiledclaseboy |
Excellent post. Nationalist are birds of a feather, regardless of which nationalism they support. It's an ugly, divisive, destructive creed as a cursory read of the nats in this forum will confirm. [Post edited 6 May 2016 19:44]
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Yep, totally agree.
Nationalism is ugly, and we ought to fend it off at every opportunity. Nationalism appears to have swept Europe over the past 20 years or so, and some countries/regions may have sound arguments for breaking up into smaller and smaller nations, whilst others do not.
But the fact that nationalism appears to be on the rise within a continent that is historically one of the most violent on earth, is rather worrying. I think our collective memories are too short these days. | | | |
| Labour on 20:01 - May 6 with 752 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Labour on 19:53 - May 6 by nice_to_michu |
Yep, totally agree.
Nationalism is ugly, and we ought to fend it off at every opportunity. Nationalism appears to have swept Europe over the past 20 years or so, and some countries/regions may have sound arguments for breaking up into smaller and smaller nations, whilst others do not.
But the fact that nationalism appears to be on the rise within a continent that is historically one of the most violent on earth, is rather worrying. I think our collective memories are too short these days. |
I couldn't agree more so have an up arrow. I like you. Post more.  | |
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| Labour on 20:13 - May 6 with 735 views | trampie |
Hey exiledclaseboy, didn't you think Plaid was going to finish 4th or something ? |  |
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| Labour on 20:18 - May 6 with 726 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Labour on 20:13 - May 6 by trampie |
Hey exiledclaseboy, didn't you think Plaid was going to finish 4th or something ? |
Don't know, did I? If I said it, I said it. Feel free to dig it out. | |
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| Labour on 20:20 - May 6 with 723 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
| Labour on 19:11 - May 6 by exiledclaseboy |
Anyone still labouring (pun intended) under the notion that the BBC favours Labour must surely have been disavowed of that notion today. Its coverage (at least on the radio, I haven't seen much TV) has been solely "Tory triumph, Labour despair". It was neither of things, merely an ok night for both parties. The BBC is terrified of its own shadow and it's a sad sight to see.
If last night proved anything it's that the UK is now firmly a multi party country. The days of majority governments will be long gone when Westminster finally (but inevitably) moves to a fairer, more proportional voting system. |
Bbc (and I will say it ) anti Corbyn has been laudable and blatantly obvious the last couple of days .
Torys not getting a look in barely mentioned. |  |
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| Labour on 20:22 - May 6 with 721 views | trampie |
| Labour on 19:28 - May 6 by nice_to_michu |
You make some good points.
I particularly agree with your assessment of the SNP. It has become trendy to refer to the SNP as the "socialist option" in Scotland and to describe Scottish Labour as right-wing. That is a mistake. They are nationalists and populists, and cleverly found that spouting socialist rhetoric from the leader (despite its core members being anything but socialists), is a good vehicle through which it can get votes and maybe get a referendum, and to that extent they have been successful.
There are similarities to be drawn between Plaid and the SNP, in that respect. Plaid's commitment to a left-wing agenda is wafer-thin, and will only last as long as Leanne Wood stays in power as there aren't many socialists within the membership or elected representatives.
On another note, I think it's interesting to see how important the "personal vote" has been in recent elections for the minor parties. Leanne Wood is undoubtedly popular, as reflected in her outstanding performance in Rhondda. The same can be be said of Kirsty Williams or the Lib Dems, who is clearly well respected amongst her own constituents. You also have Ruth Davidson, leader of the Scottish Conservatives, who seems to have had a good night. And then obviously there is Nicola Sturgeon, who seems as popular as ever, and much more so than her predecessor, Alex Salmon.
So, strong female leaders appear to have done quite well and well good luck to them. We'll have to see if the major national parties follow suit. Just an observation.
You mentioned you will wait and see how the SNP handles tax policy with its new powers. Well, they have already said they won't increase taxes, which just goes to confirm the points you made. [Post edited 6 May 2016 19:31]
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Plaid are a bona fide left of centre party, not just the leader but what some see as the next leader in waiting as well, in 1981 Plaid adopted "community socialism" as a constitutional aim. | |
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| Labour on 22:04 - May 6 with 664 views | Lohengrin |
| Labour on 20:22 - May 6 by trampie |
Plaid are a bona fide left of centre party, not just the leader but what some see as the next leader in waiting as well, in 1981 Plaid adopted "community socialism" as a constitutional aim. |
Their aim is awfully wayward then, Tramp. Not a single policy initiative along those lines in the intervening thirty five years. |  |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Labour on 23:03 - May 6 with 628 views | trampie |
| Labour on 20:18 - May 6 by exiledclaseboy |
Don't know, did I? If I said it, I said it. Feel free to dig it out. |
April 3rd | |
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| Labour on 22:04 - May 19 with 517 views | Joe_bradshaw |
| Labour on 13:10 - May 6 by Joe_bradshaw |
As did I but I hope she's learned from Nick Clegg's experience.
A formal coalition with Labour? I sincerely hope not. Judge them on each vote and vote accordingly.
She could, of course, be offered a post such as education which may be tempting. ... |
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| Labour on 22:12 - May 19 with 504 views | VetchitBack |
| Labour on 19:53 - May 6 by nice_to_michu |
Yep, totally agree.
Nationalism is ugly, and we ought to fend it off at every opportunity. Nationalism appears to have swept Europe over the past 20 years or so, and some countries/regions may have sound arguments for breaking up into smaller and smaller nations, whilst others do not.
But the fact that nationalism appears to be on the rise within a continent that is historically one of the most violent on earth, is rather worrying. I think our collective memories are too short these days. |
So we need to fend off Nationalism at every opportunity except at some opportunities?
And interesting that a Planet Swans regular is grand arbiter on which countries/regions are allowed to express their nationalism. |  |
| The orthodox are always orthodox, regardless of the orthodoxy.
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