| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU 12:02 - May 21 with 14861 views | jack_lord |
Just so we can read the reasons and then can respond to each with valid facts to denounce or support each one of them. |  |
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| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 15:50 - May 27 with 1136 views | jackonicko |
If we were not in the EU now, would you vote to join it? |  | | |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 16:25 - May 27 with 1117 views | exiledclaseboy |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 15:50 - May 27 by jackonicko |
If we were not in the EU now, would you vote to join it? |
Maybe. Just for jollies. |  |
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| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 16:51 - May 27 with 1094 views | Swanseajill |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 15:48 - May 27 by exiledclaseboy |
Civil sevants only do what their ministers tell them to do. Just saying. |
Replacing " An Irishman" with Civil servant.
How many would it take if OUT succeeds, to disentangle us ??? |  | | |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 16:55 - May 27 with 1089 views | exiledclaseboy |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 16:51 - May 27 by Swanseajill |
Replacing " An Irishman" with Civil servant.
How many would it take if OUT succeeds, to disentangle us ??? |
Well there won't be any new ones that's for sure. | |
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| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 17:10 - May 27 with 1080 views | Swanseajill |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 16:55 - May 27 by exiledclaseboy |
Well there won't be any new ones that's for sure. |
They will be needed on the continent, particularly if they can speak French, German or another.
All of those tons of paperwork that travel on a monthly commute from Brussels to Strasbourg by train in large boxes will need CS. To guard them.
CS also needed desperately to man the new " museum of The European Union"in Brussels.
Such a waste of time,money, and Civil Servants [Post edited 27 May 2016 20:05]
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| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 17:21 - May 27 with 1069 views | Swanseajill |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 17:14 - May 27 by exiledclaseboy |
I'm off to Holland again next month. I'll think of you when I'm filling in my expenses claim.   |
JUst stay out of "The cake shops" you know it makes sense.  | | | |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 18:52 - May 27 with 1019 views | Kerouac |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 10:46 - May 26 by jackonicko |
That is all technically true and I self-admitted my response was a little flippant.
The EU is not undemocratic and anyone who says it is probably one of those swivel-eyed loons we hear about. But even by your own analysis there is a demonstrable democratic deficit.
Some of that deficit lies in the EC as an institution. By your own description, the "executive" is not directly elected but a grace and favour appointment. It matters not whether they are appointed by those that are elected - that is what creates some of the deficit.
The rest comes from the lack of accountability and transparency spread across the various institutions you describe. Noone is accountable or responsible for decisions. The Prime Minister doesn't get to blame his cabinet. The President of the USA doesn't get to blame his cabinet. Does anyone make Tusk responsible for anything? No, he is just the sitting President on Poland's buggins turn. Juncker? Course not, the EP is weak and largely ineffective as a lower house.
Any of the other two Presidents I've still not googled? Of course not. Noone know what they do or who they do it for. None are responsible nor accountable for decisions taken by other bodies. Its always someone else.
It is interesting (for me) that none of those Presidents listed have come to the UK once to make the case for why we should remain. Why not? Well, they are neither responsible or accountable - it's not their job to do so. The potential exit of one of the largest member states of the EU, and no single person, group, body or institution is responsible or accountable for coming to make that case. In any other situation it would be remarkable, but not this time. No-one has even mentioned it.
You don't have that with other executive functions. All Cameron or Obama do is try to deflect onto the past holder of the role. That only works for a period of time. Then the buck stops.
EDIT - apologies, I mixed up my Presidents. easily done. So, as stated above, Tusk is President of the European Council. Juncker is President of the European Commission. I did google the other two - Martin Schulz is President of the European Parliament and the Netherlands are President of the Council of the European Union, which remember folks is different to Polish Tusk being President of the European Council.
One final comment - who, hand-on-heart could pick Martin Schulz out in a police line up? If you genuinely can, you are more of a political geek than I am and I tip my hat to you. [Post edited 26 May 2016 11:00]
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"One final comment - who, hand-on-heart could pick Martin Schulz out in a police line up? If you genuinely can, you are more of a political geek than I am and I tip my hat to you."
I am that geek, I'm not proud of it mind....bald headed, arrogant, political thug he is too.
You are absolutely right regarding the democratic deficit that exists.
By necessity the EU has to take powers that previously resided in our Parliament for itself....that's the deal.
Of course it can be argued that we have voted for people who take decisions on our behalf.....BUT the people we elected represent 1 voice out of 28.
Pre-EU we got what we voted for (yes I know it's a lot more subtle than that, but broadly speaking we did).
If we were being governed unsatisfactorily.....and our dissatisfaction as an electorate could have stemmed from 1 single decision in 1 policy area.....we could remove the people who had dissatisfied us.
In the EU we get what the governments of Europe can agree on.....and thus what the majority of the European electorate voted for (yes, I know it's more subtle than that and it often comes down to horse trading and compromise before a consensus is reached....and nobody really gets what they want. BUT the French and Germans always do best!).
If a decision is made...that not only the majority of our electorate opposes, but is directly against our interests and angers our electorate...by this committee of European nations.
THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT IT AND NO WAY FOR US TO HOLD TO ACCOUNT THE POLITICIANS AND CIVIL SERVANTS RESPONSIBLE.
I used to accept this reality as a fair price to pay for the benefits of being part of a large trading bloc able to act at a supra-national level on the issues best dealt with at that level.
Unfortunately more and more power has been sucked to the centre of the EU and the fact is that what suits France and Germany doesn't necessarily suit us.
I am sick of our point of view not being listened to. On;
CAP,
the ridiculous arrangements regarding Strasbourg,
The Common Fisheries Policy,
the incompletion of the Single Market, specifically Services,
Schengen,
the unnecessary duplication of state functions,
and
Merkel's ridiculous behaviour regarding the refugee crisis.
give me 5 minutes and I could reel off a load more.
Vote Out. |  |
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| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 18:54 - May 27 with 1015 views | AnotherJohn |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 15:48 - May 27 by exiledclaseboy |
Civil sevants only do what their ministers tell them to do. Just saying. |
Sir Humphrey Appleby would be lost these days! |  | | |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 19:41 - May 27 with 986 views | monmouth |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 18:54 - May 27 by AnotherJohn |
Sir Humphrey Appleby would be lost these days! |
It's also a lie. The civil servants I was familiar with didn't do what their ministers told them to at all.
They didn't do anything. |  |
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| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 19:44 - May 27 with 980 views | exiledclaseboy |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 19:41 - May 27 by monmouth |
It's also a lie. The civil servants I was familiar with didn't do what their ministers told them to at all.
They didn't do anything. |
Ba dum tush. | |
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| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 19:52 - May 27 with 976 views | monmouth |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 19:44 - May 27 by exiledclaseboy |
Ba dum tush. |
To be fair that's a good thing. What I've found in both sectors when anyone tries to actually do something, things inevitably get that little bit worse.
Leave well alone was my motto. | |
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| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 19:53 - May 27 with 974 views | exiledclaseboy |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 19:52 - May 27 by monmouth |
To be fair that's a good thing. What I've found in both sectors when anyone tries to actually do something, things inevitably get that little bit worse.
Leave well alone was my motto. |
We're all about the innovation these days mun. | |
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| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 19:55 - May 27 with 972 views | monmouth |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 19:53 - May 27 by exiledclaseboy |
We're all about the innovation these days mun. |
Aye, it's disturbing. | |
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| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 19:57 - May 27 with 970 views | exiledclaseboy |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 19:55 - May 27 by monmouth |
Aye, it's disturbing. |
And disconcerting. Not to mention breaking with centuries of tradition. Everything is online these days. I thrive on paper. | |
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| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 21:28 - May 27 with 904 views | jack_lord |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 18:52 - May 27 by Kerouac |
"One final comment - who, hand-on-heart could pick Martin Schulz out in a police line up? If you genuinely can, you are more of a political geek than I am and I tip my hat to you."
I am that geek, I'm not proud of it mind....bald headed, arrogant, political thug he is too.
You are absolutely right regarding the democratic deficit that exists.
By necessity the EU has to take powers that previously resided in our Parliament for itself....that's the deal.
Of course it can be argued that we have voted for people who take decisions on our behalf.....BUT the people we elected represent 1 voice out of 28.
Pre-EU we got what we voted for (yes I know it's a lot more subtle than that, but broadly speaking we did).
If we were being governed unsatisfactorily.....and our dissatisfaction as an electorate could have stemmed from 1 single decision in 1 policy area.....we could remove the people who had dissatisfied us.
In the EU we get what the governments of Europe can agree on.....and thus what the majority of the European electorate voted for (yes, I know it's more subtle than that and it often comes down to horse trading and compromise before a consensus is reached....and nobody really gets what they want. BUT the French and Germans always do best!).
If a decision is made...that not only the majority of our electorate opposes, but is directly against our interests and angers our electorate...by this committee of European nations.
THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT IT AND NO WAY FOR US TO HOLD TO ACCOUNT THE POLITICIANS AND CIVIL SERVANTS RESPONSIBLE.
I used to accept this reality as a fair price to pay for the benefits of being part of a large trading bloc able to act at a supra-national level on the issues best dealt with at that level.
Unfortunately more and more power has been sucked to the centre of the EU and the fact is that what suits France and Germany doesn't necessarily suit us.
I am sick of our point of view not being listened to. On;
CAP,
the ridiculous arrangements regarding Strasbourg,
The Common Fisheries Policy,
the incompletion of the Single Market, specifically Services,
Schengen,
the unnecessary duplication of state functions,
and
Merkel's ridiculous behaviour regarding the refugee crisis.
give me 5 minutes and I could reel off a load more.
Vote Out. |
One thing that I got out of that was that in the EU we get what the Governments agree on. One thing is certainly more assured and that is peace. | |
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| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 22:19 - May 27 with 884 views | PozuelosSideys |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 21:28 - May 27 by jack_lord |
One thing that I got out of that was that in the EU we get what the Governments agree on. One thing is certainly more assured and that is peace. |
So you need 28 governmental representatives to agree on behalf of their nations, each with different views, requirements and beliefs and that = peace?
Having seen what theye done with Greece and the expansionist policy to the East with Ukraine, im quite sceptical of that notion. Throw in the open door policy plus the dominance and lack of flexibility and that looks like guaranteed carnage at some point tbh.
The wishes of the people come second behind that of the machine and that is not a positive. At least if the UK has a bunch pf monkies in charge we can physically vote them out after 5 years. If we were at the thin end of some very bad wedges off the EU, we are pretty much powerless to do anything. |  |
| "Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper." | | Poll: | Hattricks |
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| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 22:43 - May 27 with 872 views | Kerouac |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 21:28 - May 27 by jack_lord |
One thing that I got out of that was that in the EU we get what the Governments agree on. One thing is certainly more assured and that is peace. |
....and the rest of them will be free to carry on down that path if that is what it takes to stop them tearing each other apart.
Our membership of Nato and our nuclear weapons is what prevents other states attacking us.
However, I wouldn't be so sure that the EU guarantees peace.
The continent's economies may be intertwined, ours included (whether we leave or stay in), but from here on in so will their political institutions
Germany and France will dominate these institutions.
Some states are being bullied and coerced.
There is widespread dissatisfaction with the EU and unrest on the streets of France, Germany and Greece.
They seem unwilling and incapable of protecting their own borders.
It seems to me you have a recipe there for potential conflict...it might not take the same form as previous conflicts, no total war, but could be destructive nevertheless.
I fail to see how voting 'out' will change our own chances of securing a peaceful future at all. | |
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| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 22:51 - May 27 with 866 views | blueytheblue |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 19:57 - May 27 by exiledclaseboy |
And disconcerting. Not to mention breaking with centuries of tradition. Everything is online these days. I thrive on paper. |
Elf and safety.
Think about the number of paper cuts. What if someone is a hemophiliac? All those paper cuts, poor bugger wouldn't stand a chance. | |
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| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 08:17 - May 28 with 814 views | jack_lord |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 22:43 - May 27 by Kerouac |
....and the rest of them will be free to carry on down that path if that is what it takes to stop them tearing each other apart.
Our membership of Nato and our nuclear weapons is what prevents other states attacking us.
However, I wouldn't be so sure that the EU guarantees peace.
The continent's economies may be intertwined, ours included (whether we leave or stay in), but from here on in so will their political institutions
Germany and France will dominate these institutions.
Some states are being bullied and coerced.
There is widespread dissatisfaction with the EU and unrest on the streets of France, Germany and Greece.
They seem unwilling and incapable of protecting their own borders.
It seems to me you have a recipe there for potential conflict...it might not take the same form as previous conflicts, no total war, but could be destructive nevertheless.
I fail to see how voting 'out' will change our own chances of securing a peaceful future at all. |
Voting out is not all about us. If the UK leave then others will follow which, and this is my opinion, will eventually lead to a less stable working relationship between European nations (not to be confused with EU nations) and as you have mentions potential conflict then in future there would be no EU Governmemt involved as the EU will have a different look. | |
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| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 17:49 - May 29 with 710 views | blueytheblue |
| OK Why do people want to vote to leave the EU on 08:17 - May 28 by jack_lord |
Voting out is not all about us. If the UK leave then others will follow which, and this is my opinion, will eventually lead to a less stable working relationship between European nations (not to be confused with EU nations) and as you have mentions potential conflict then in future there would be no EU Governmemt involved as the EU will have a different look. |
If that happens then it shows the EU is unstable because nations want out.
If Britain votes to leave, it's not created that demand in other nations, just shown other nations it's possible to leave.
I did like the clip of Harriet Harman, wanting people to vote Remain being unable to recognise pictures of EU top officials. | |
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