| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? 10:42 - Jun 28 with 8207 views | Kerouac |
This is what I think...
The referendum was "non-binding",
we have yet to invoke 'article 50' and can do so at our leisure.
The EU wants us to exit ASAP and desires a swift conclusion.
Why?
Because it is creating financial turmoil for them too....because they are prevented from moving forward with deeper union until this has been resolved....and because it is creating tensions within individual states, there is a serious risk of EU break-up.
Despite wishing for a swift conclusion they have stated that there will be "no informal negotiations" and that "negotiations will only begin once 'Article 50' is invoked".
Frankly, the decision for when we invoke 'Article 50' is out of their hands....and the more they stamp their feet and be unreasonable the more the political tensions in their own countries and between EU states increase.
I can see us dragging this out and creating as much mischief as possible within the EU.
Nothing has changed at the moment....all the anxiety concerns what speculators are doing in financial markets.
The longer this drags on, the longer the financial uncertainty, the more the political tensions in the EU increase.
They will HAVE to start informal negotiations with us.
There is NOTHING they can do about the timescale.
We will hold out for a good deal and we will get it or the EU will burn down.
Why?
Mass youth unemployment, piss weak economies, mass immigration, TTIP and terrorism.
The Greeks are now anti-EU, the party making all the gains in Italy are Eurosceptic, an anti-EU party in Germany is increasing in the polls, France have Marine Le Pen on the far right demanding a referendum and many on the far left unhappy with the EU, the Eastern European states have openly disobeyed the EU, Poland is already stating that it is the EU who should be bending to keep the UK, There are tensions in Holland and Scandinavia too....the EU does not win at the ballot box in any European state.
The other European citizens will be demanding their say at the ballot box.
We have the cards, we now just need someone with a cool head to play them. |  |
| |  |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 10:51 - Jun 28 with 2406 views | yescomeon |
They are probably sitting on the other side thinking the same thing. |  |
| |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 10:52 - Jun 28 with 2403 views | A_Fans_Dad |
You forgot Austria, only prevented from having a far right Politician by "postal votes".
If there is the slightest truth in this story,
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3662827/Has-Britain-avoided-European-sup
which is directly inline with EU ambitions then it will create even more dis-harmony.
And would make our "out" timing very very good indeed and confirms everything the leave voters were against. |  | | |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 10:57 - Jun 28 with 2396 views | Lord_Bony |
The EU is on the way out...certainly if we make a success, other countries will follow. You simply cant force 28 very different countries and cultures into political union. At some point someone will have to see sense like we did and say enough is enough and stop trying to achieve this ever closer union.
We have just come through a MAJOR political revolution in this country..of course there will be fallout there always is...but when the dust settles and we get good leadership again,we will be surprised at how good things can potentially be without the shackles of Europe upon us...
The trading opportunities with the rest of the world will be much better for us now and much easier to export because of a weakened pound according to business leaders. |  |
| |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:01 - Jun 28 with 2385 views | Kerouac |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 10:51 - Jun 28 by yescomeon |
They are probably sitting on the other side thinking the same thing. |
Yes, but I'm betting that a longer delay hurts them more.
They've stated very clearly that they want this sorted ASAP haven't they?
They can have it sorted ASAP if they concede on a few things....or it can be dragged out and their home audiences can continue to watch the spectacle of EU leaders trying to bully countries and be unreasonable, for as long as they like...frankly.
....and all the time they wish to continue the project of "more Europe", which actually is the dissolution of European nation states and the forming of a United States of Europe, which presumably will require some consensus and approval at the ballot box.
The longer this drags on the more difficult that task becomes. IMO. | |
| |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:06 - Jun 28 with 2378 views | magicdaps10 |
We are in no rush to invoke article 50.
This is also the attitude of the out gang, ask yourself why!? |  |
| |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:07 - Jun 28 with 2375 views | Lord_Bony |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:01 - Jun 28 by Kerouac |
Yes, but I'm betting that a longer delay hurts them more.
They've stated very clearly that they want this sorted ASAP haven't they?
They can have it sorted ASAP if they concede on a few things....or it can be dragged out and their home audiences can continue to watch the spectacle of EU leaders trying to bully countries and be unreasonable, for as long as they like...frankly.
....and all the time they wish to continue the project of "more Europe", which actually is the dissolution of European nation states and the forming of a United States of Europe, which presumably will require some consensus and approval at the ballot box.
The longer this drags on the more difficult that task becomes. IMO. |
The problem now is they are playing hard ball. They cant be seen to be soft on us and refuse to offer any sweeteners because if they do then other countries will be doing it.
We cant trigger article 50 at the moment mainly because we got no fookn government!
No we should bide our time and do it in the autumn when things settle down.
My biggest concern is they will try every trick in the book for us to have another referendum including taking in Gibraltar and Scotland.
The people of the United Kingdom have spoken...their wishes must be respected. | |
| |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:19 - Jun 28 with 2358 views | yescomeon |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:01 - Jun 28 by Kerouac |
Yes, but I'm betting that a longer delay hurts them more.
They've stated very clearly that they want this sorted ASAP haven't they?
They can have it sorted ASAP if they concede on a few things....or it can be dragged out and their home audiences can continue to watch the spectacle of EU leaders trying to bully countries and be unreasonable, for as long as they like...frankly.
....and all the time they wish to continue the project of "more Europe", which actually is the dissolution of European nation states and the forming of a United States of Europe, which presumably will require some consensus and approval at the ballot box.
The longer this drags on the more difficult that task becomes. IMO. |
Maybe it does, maybe it hurts us more. No one knows really, but thinks can't look that rosy over here to the EU you know. Scotland and Gibraltar taking about leaving, no government, no one seeming to want it, opposition tearing itself apart, credit rating getting down graded, governor of the bank of England having to assure the world he have the money to pay our debts. It's hardly a bed of roses. In my opinion we need to just get someone in and get the ball rolling. If there is any intention of actually leaving the EU that is what will happen, but now, I really don't think there is. Just my opinion. | |
| |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:25 - Jun 28 with 2344 views | LeonisGod |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:07 - Jun 28 by Lord_Bony |
The problem now is they are playing hard ball. They cant be seen to be soft on us and refuse to offer any sweeteners because if they do then other countries will be doing it.
We cant trigger article 50 at the moment mainly because we got no fookn government!
No we should bide our time and do it in the autumn when things settle down.
My biggest concern is they will try every trick in the book for us to have another referendum including taking in Gibraltar and Scotland.
The people of the United Kingdom have spoken...their wishes must be respected. |
Cameron could trigger it today if he wished. He's still in post, still our leader in Brussels and just has to say the words.
But he won't of course.
You're right, we need to see this through. But I don't think we should be taking our time as the uncertainty will harm businesses, inward investment, the markets, house prices, the Sterling (pretty much everything). We won't though - that's clear now.
Agrer the the vote should be respected. If we don't leave (and that's still in the balance) it's just going to undermine public confidence in our useless bunch of to55ers in Westminster even further. |  | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:37 - Jun 28 with 2326 views | Kerouac |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:19 - Jun 28 by yescomeon |
Maybe it does, maybe it hurts us more. No one knows really, but thinks can't look that rosy over here to the EU you know. Scotland and Gibraltar taking about leaving, no government, no one seeming to want it, opposition tearing itself apart, credit rating getting down graded, governor of the bank of England having to assure the world he have the money to pay our debts. It's hardly a bed of roses. In my opinion we need to just get someone in and get the ball rolling. If there is any intention of actually leaving the EU that is what will happen, but now, I really don't think there is. Just my opinion. |
hmmmm.....the SNP;
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683755/Nicola-Sturgeon-SNP-Scottish-independenc
If the SNP wants to leave the UK they will have to win an independence referendum, then they can join the EU and be like Greece.
Gibraltar are talking about staying in the UK but cutting a deal with the EU whereby "parts of the UK remain in the EU"...a very different thing. | |
| |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:41 - Jun 28 with 2317 views | controversial_jack |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:37 - Jun 28 by Kerouac |
hmmmm.....the SNP;
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683755/Nicola-Sturgeon-SNP-Scottish-independenc
If the SNP wants to leave the UK they will have to win an independence referendum, then they can join the EU and be like Greece.
Gibraltar are talking about staying in the UK but cutting a deal with the EU whereby "parts of the UK remain in the EU"...a very different thing. |
It won't be easy. The member states will want to punish us and make an example to others thinking of doing the same. This is what happens to rogue nations | | | |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:47 - Jun 28 with 2303 views | Lord_Bony |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:25 - Jun 28 by LeonisGod |
Cameron could trigger it today if he wished. He's still in post, still our leader in Brussels and just has to say the words.
But he won't of course.
You're right, we need to see this through. But I don't think we should be taking our time as the uncertainty will harm businesses, inward investment, the markets, house prices, the Sterling (pretty much everything). We won't though - that's clear now.
Agrer the the vote should be respected. If we don't leave (and that's still in the balance) it's just going to undermine public confidence in our useless bunch of to55ers in Westminster even further. |
Cameron wont see it through though.
He s very cleverly said he will leave triggering article 50 to his successor.
Basically,it means a poison chalice will be handed to the next PM. It will take a brave man or woman to invoke it!
There will be chaos afterwards on the markets(albeit temporary) and the blame will immediately be put on them for causing it.... a tough one. | |
| |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:48 - Jun 28 with 2301 views | yescomeon |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:37 - Jun 28 by Kerouac |
hmmmm.....the SNP;
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683755/Nicola-Sturgeon-SNP-Scottish-independenc
If the SNP wants to leave the UK they will have to win an independence referendum, then they can join the EU and be like Greece.
Gibraltar are talking about staying in the UK but cutting a deal with the EU whereby "parts of the UK remain in the EU"...a very different thing. |
The state of Scotland is really besides the point, but the UK losing Scotland hardly makes the UK look like it is in a strong position does it, that's my point. I don't think the collective power of 27 states of the EU against 1 state tearing itself apart over the referendum looks like good odds to me. But it is all perception isn't it, we are both clearly framing events to sit within our prior biases. The truth is most likely, in the short term neither party will do well out of this. | |
| |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:52 - Jun 28 with 2284 views | LeonisGod |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:47 - Jun 28 by Lord_Bony |
Cameron wont see it through though.
He s very cleverly said he will leave triggering article 50 to his successor.
Basically,it means a poison chalice will be handed to the next PM. It will take a brave man or woman to invoke it!
There will be chaos afterwards on the markets(albeit temporary) and the blame will immediately be put on them for causing it.... a tough one. |
Yep to all of that. Cameron's been a sneaky b@stard, but I can't say I blame him. The thing that pees me off though is that this is all about their little power games and one-upmanship, but it affects us. | | | |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:57 - Jun 28 with 2273 views | Lord_Bony |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:52 - Jun 28 by LeonisGod |
Yep to all of that. Cameron's been a sneaky b@stard, but I can't say I blame him. The thing that pees me off though is that this is all about their little power games and one-upmanship, but it affects us. |
Pisses me off the one time we need a strong government and opposition through this transitional period ... and they run away from the responsibility and bottle it. | |
| |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 12:04 - Jun 28 with 2257 views | Lord_Bony |
As people have said on here,now is not the time for silly little party tricks and games. | |
| |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 12:04 - Jun 28 with 2256 views | Joe_bradshaw |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:52 - Jun 28 by LeonisGod |
Yep to all of that. Cameron's been a sneaky b@stard, but I can't say I blame him. The thing that pees me off though is that this is all about their little power games and one-upmanship, but it affects us. |
I think it's reasonable for Cameron to say to Boris 'you engineered brexit so you negotiate the terms of brexit '.
Cameron would have been on a hiding to nothing if he had tried to negotiate a brexit that he didn't want.
Of course, he's to blame for his stupid decision to roll the dice in the first place but he played a blinder by resigning and has given Boris a headache. |  |
| |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 12:05 - Jun 28 with 2255 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:19 - Jun 28 by yescomeon |
Maybe it does, maybe it hurts us more. No one knows really, but thinks can't look that rosy over here to the EU you know. Scotland and Gibraltar taking about leaving, no government, no one seeming to want it, opposition tearing itself apart, credit rating getting down graded, governor of the bank of England having to assure the world he have the money to pay our debts. It's hardly a bed of roses. In my opinion we need to just get someone in and get the ball rolling. If there is any intention of actually leaving the EU that is what will happen, but now, I really don't think there is. Just my opinion. |
Have you heard of the "Self fulfilling Phrophecy"?
Because that is exactly what the Remain fear campaign has become.
Tell the whole world how bad it would if the UK exits the EU, exaggerate evrything, splash it over every TV station, every Newspaper across the world.
Great when you are positive you can't possibly loose, but not when you do.
I bet Cameron, Osbourne and whoever takes over wish they hadn't pushed it quite so hard now. [Post edited 28 Jun 2016 12:06]
| | | |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 12:15 - Jun 28 with 2229 views | BytholWyn |
I find the degree of self-deluded grandiose, little Britain thinking on this forum and amongst Brexiters astonishing (well actually I don't it's par for the course after all).
Do you not get it that there is a huge asymmetry of power between us and the EU as a whole and even more so between us and the rest of the World? Farage's pompous comments, inferring that Europe would have more to lose from the imposition of tit-for-tat tariffs sums up the delusions of the hard right. He's correct of course that tariffs wouldn't be good for German car manufacturers, but it would be far worse for us in the UK. Why? Because our population of the UK is 65 million and the population of the EU is about 450 million without the Uk. If they lose a proportion of their trade with us as a result of a trade war it will hurt them - but nothing like as much as it will hurt us to lose a proportion of our trade with 450 million people. As we enter into negotiations with the EU we are both faced with the prospect of a lose-lose situation developing - but we have far more to lose than the rest of the EU. That is the simple reality which will play out in negotiations, and which is why you poor Brexiters are going to be so so disappointed with the eventual outcome - which will be nothing like what was promised.
What applies to our relationship to the EU applies even more so to the rest of the World. This is perfectly illustrated with the debate around the future of the steel industry. China has imposed swingeing tariffs on UK steel, and is dumping its own steel on us, causing most of the problems the Uk steel industry is facing. It's pretty obvious that we should impose our own tit for tat tariffs, isn't it? But we have't. Why not? Because we stand to lose the opportunity of gain some sort of entry to their financial services market. A perfect illustration of the kind of future that awaits little Britain. On a global scale we are tiny, with the population of Texas and Caifornia combined. The idea we can exert any significant influence or negotiate favourable trade terms with our competitors is simply deluded.
The Empire is no more, get over it. We can be part of a club that exerts influence on the World, or we can face the world with plucky bravado but no power. Its time to get real. |  | | |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 12:19 - Jun 28 with 2223 views | Lord_Bony |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 12:14 - Jun 28 by WarwickHunt |
F*ck me - the Brains Trust has arrived.
Are you suggesting this international clusterf*ck only happened just because the Remain campaign said it would?  |
I think he's trying to say Project Fear has back fired on the electorate..
The Remain Campaign shot themselves in the foot with it...they did nt realise voters are far more sensible than they gave them credit for. | |
| |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 12:29 - Jun 28 with 2197 views | WarwickHunt |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 12:19 - Jun 28 by Lord_Bony |
I think he's trying to say Project Fear has back fired on the electorate..
The Remain Campaign shot themselves in the foot with it...they did nt realise voters are far more sensible than they gave them credit for. |
As the electorate weren't responsible for "Project Fear", I don't see how it could have backfired on them...
His post was about a "self-fulfilling prophecy." Your post makes about as much sense as his.
Still, carry on... |  | | |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 12:32 - Jun 28 with 2184 views | Kerouac |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 11:48 - Jun 28 by yescomeon |
The state of Scotland is really besides the point, but the UK losing Scotland hardly makes the UK look like it is in a strong position does it, that's my point. I don't think the collective power of 27 states of the EU against 1 state tearing itself apart over the referendum looks like good odds to me. But it is all perception isn't it, we are both clearly framing events to sit within our prior biases. The truth is most likely, in the short term neither party will do well out of this. |
I hear you but I totally reject the idea (put about vociferously by Nicola Sturgeon post referendum) that Scotland would vote to leave the UK.
40% of Scotland voted to leave the EU.
2 years ago they lost an independence referendum.
Now, the price of oil has collapsed....they'd be voting to be poorer.
They would be voting for austerity, for the Euro, for borders with the UK, for their children having to learn a new language and move to mainland Europe for better job opportunities rather than London.
They would be voting for the ludicrous position of leaving the UK because 60% of them were on the wrong side of the argument in our referendum (which was granted to them on top of the previous Independence referendum....because the UK respects democracy and self-determination) in order to join a union where they would be a tiny insignificant voice, to join a union which demonstrably does not respect democracy.
To join an economic union where you have to play by their rules, which are rigged in Germany's favour, the result being a stalled European economy, imposed austerity (as opposed to austerity policies that was voted for) and mass youth unemployment.
....and all of this will be rammed down their throats during the campaign. | |
| |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 12:42 - Jun 28 with 2164 views | londonlisa2001 |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 12:29 - Jun 28 by WarwickHunt |
As the electorate weren't responsible for "Project Fear", I don't see how it could have backfired on them...
His post was about a "self-fulfilling prophecy." Your post makes about as much sense as his.
Still, carry on... |
Do you reckon that when people make other life changing decisions they go through the same sequence of thinking?
'I need a hip replacement - my consultant who has donkey's years of training and experience tells me the best way to do it, but my mate who has no medical training at all but has a hip himself so understands my pain tells me the consultant is wrong. The consultant tells me that if if go with what my mate says there'll be permanent damage caused, it'll be painful, may cause sepsis and I'll never be able to walk properly again. Despite this I'll go with what my mate says as the consultant is a stuck up posh tw*t and my mate's a good bloke who is more like me and we both agree the consultant is making stuff up to get my hard earned coin. Spin forward to after the operation and I find that my hip is permanently damaged and I can't walk. But that's the fault of the consultant - it's a self fulfilling prophecy. In the meantime by the way, my mate's buggered off and I can't find him'.
Dear God. | | | |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 12:46 - Jun 28 with 1792 views | Kerouac |
12:32
Amalgamated French and UK flag
AFP
We told you about the German newspapers, but what about those in France?
The conservative daily, Le Figaro, says France and Germany "still have no idea how to respond to the challenge" of Brexit. Its editorial says "a conspiracy of the deaf" is emerging, stretching from London to Berlin and Brussels, which is aimed at "ignoring the voice of the nasty secessionist people."
"Britons have the upper hand since no-one can press the EU exit button for them," the paper says. "But neither Cameron nor Johnson appear to know how to do so or where to start".
The centre-left Le Monde daily sees EU states as being "helpless in the face of British chaos".
While, left-wing daily Liberation says France wants to "rebalance Europe in favour of the Mediterranean countries" but Germany wants the EU to bide its time. | |
| |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 12:48 - Jun 28 with 1780 views | yescomeon |
| EU negotiations - How do you see them panning out? on 12:32 - Jun 28 by Kerouac |
I hear you but I totally reject the idea (put about vociferously by Nicola Sturgeon post referendum) that Scotland would vote to leave the UK.
40% of Scotland voted to leave the EU.
2 years ago they lost an independence referendum.
Now, the price of oil has collapsed....they'd be voting to be poorer.
They would be voting for austerity, for the Euro, for borders with the UK, for their children having to learn a new language and move to mainland Europe for better job opportunities rather than London.
They would be voting for the ludicrous position of leaving the UK because 60% of them were on the wrong side of the argument in our referendum (which was granted to them on top of the previous Independence referendum....because the UK respects democracy and self-determination) in order to join a union where they would be a tiny insignificant voice, to join a union which demonstrably does not respect democracy.
To join an economic union where you have to play by their rules, which are rigged in Germany's favour, the result being a stalled European economy, imposed austerity (as opposed to austerity policies that was voted for) and mass youth unemployment.
....and all of this will be rammed down their throats during the campaign. |
You do see that all of those points can be turned on their head to apply to the UK by the yes campaign in Scotland? After the referendum just gone, it should be clear that with the right propaganda anything is possible in a referendum. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
