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Lets get an idea from us fans in general as to the last 6 months or so. A 6 months that's seen us bought out by the Americans in a deal where the old owners sold their souls and us down the river.
We all know they did their best to keep the Trust away from discussions and tried wilfully to get the Trust to sign a legal document stating the old regime's Shareholders Agreement practically meant nothing.
Since then the Trust have parted company with their Supporters Director and Vice Chairman and have been threatening legal action throughout the whole time, also stating on many an occasion that "this can't go on much longer"
As we are now aware from recent statements the Trust feel they are "building bridges" and getting somewhere with the new regime. Do we think this is the right course of action and to trust the new American owners and the remaining old Directors, bearing in mind all that's gone on?
What do the fans think?
Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action
[Post edited 21 Feb 2017 14:58]
* BOX OFFICE POST ABOVE* TM
I am the resurrection and i am the light. I couldn’t ever bring myself to hate you as i’d like
Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 21:00 - Feb 21 by perchrockjack
Will legal action affect matters on the field
Personally ,I d rather us stay up
Probably, given that it will be against two of our current owners including the one bloke who pretty much runs the football management side of things.
I'm not convinced how taking on the former owners in what would be a messy and potentially drawn-out process could not have a negative impact on the team. Look what happened when Huw took his eye off the ball in the summer.
If there's a way, I'm all for it, but focus can't slip from the team. We're between a rock and a hard place here - tough love needed.
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Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 09:45 - Feb 22 with 2402 views
Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 09:37 - Feb 22 by LeonWasGod
Probably, given that it will be against two of our current owners including the one bloke who pretty much runs the football management side of things.
I'm not convinced how taking on the former owners in what would be a messy and potentially drawn-out process could not have a negative impact on the team. Look what happened when Huw took his eye off the ball in the summer.
If there's a way, I'm all for it, but focus can't slip from the team. We're between a rock and a hard place here - tough love needed.
The Trust could ask the Americans to replace HJ.
#backtojack
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Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 09:46 - Feb 22 with 2401 views
Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 09:25 - Feb 22 by Lord_Bony
Problem is as we re playing better and progressing under the new manager and players the fight is forgotten.
If we were still languishing at the bottom we d all be up in arms.
I still think the sellouts should be taken to court by the Trust,who seem a bit toothless in all of this.
This is one of the main reasons I wanted a quick headcount as to fans general feelings.
You can see lots of fans only care about Premier League football and everything else it seems can take a back burner. Maybe it was the same fans, as Dr W states used to back Jenkins no matter what he did.
Premier League football and our fight for justice do not depend on the other.
If the Trust are really building bridges with the Americans then they should encourage further dialogue and.to turn back time and make the same offer to us as they did the other shareholders.
That's only fair and from there we can make some serious decisions but with the knowledge our history and legacy have both been protected.
If they don't enter into further dialogue then they should understand and respect why we need to take the appropriate legal action.
* BOX OFFICE POST ABOVE* TM
I am the resurrection and i am the light. I couldn’t ever bring myself to hate you as i’d like
I'm not happy with take over not because of sellers profits but purely how it was done
I'm not in a position to put money into the club so I look for others best suited
All that matters in what happens on the field of play and anything that takes focus away from this feels uncomfortable.
We ve a city and a club with a chequered history and back biting and it had a massive effect on the Club.
We ve been in deep do do this season but look to have found the answer in Clement ,who, WILL walk away if this infighting ,protest, legal action takes place . Make no mistake, notwithstanding the deviousness of Jenkins and cocksucking incompetence of dineen , we could undo much of the ground we ve gained .
So, we sue, what then
We win, then what
How will the owners take it. Will they simply run for the hills and get out.
Ive asked the question ,just what do "we" want. Who do we want running our club and how do we court them. Suing sellers sends out strong smells so I'm looking for evidence that it d be worth it.
In the perfect world we stay up and the sellout scum get taken to court in what seems a cut and dry case. I am in the minority who would not mind playing at a lower level to see justice prevail and the scum out of our club. We will eventually go down that's beyond doubt if we take legal action or not. Why have £900,000 for exactly this type of scenario if your not going to use it?
OUT AFLI SUCK IT UP REMOANER LOSERS
🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧
being realistic, six seasons ago ,some were saying just that. Premier League was too big for us, too small a city etc.
Future? Now this is interesting and why I seem to be out of kilter on here because my beef with the Owners thus far is Ive seen little to evidence their intent to taker us to the next level.
They may do in due course and if they do then Id be satisfied indeed. However ,so far the signs have not been that encouraging.
Personally, I want Jenkins and Dineen removed and replaced with quality professional men to take us forward
I don't share the view we have reached our zenith.
The future could be very exciting but we ve yet to take comfort from Kaplan and Levein.
Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 10:01 - Feb 22 by pikeypaul
In the perfect world we stay up and the sellout scum get taken to court in what seems a cut and dry case. I am in the minority who would not mind playing at a lower level to see justice prevail and the scum out of our club. We will eventually go down that's beyond doubt if we take legal action or not. Why have £900,000 for exactly this type of scenario if your not going to use it?
I agree with this.
I think around about 45 clubs have played in the Premier League since it inception. Hence promotion and relegation has been very fluid.
If you take the top clubs away - each and every season 3 go down out of 12. Which is a 1 in 4 chance. We have done incredibly well to have stayed up more than 4 seasons.
Apparently there is also astrong correlations between what you spend on players and finishing positions. We are likely be down the bottom of the table on what we spend on players, given the size of our club, so again likely to be down at the bottom in respect of finishing places.
We have to be realistic and with £20m in bank - Trust would be in a position to take control of the club when inevitable downward spiral comes. Not influence but actual control.
If Yanks take us to the next level, with the £20m sitting in the Trusts bank account as contingency, then absolutely fantastic and good luck to them.
For people who want revenge - £20m sitting in the Trust's bank account would likely block selling shareholders of ever controlling club again. Should they decide to make a controlling bid for club again in a downward spiral scenario.
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Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 11:43 - Feb 22 with 2292 views
Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 11:34 - Feb 22 by perchrockjack
being realistic, six seasons ago ,some were saying just that. Premier League was too big for us, too small a city etc.
Future? Now this is interesting and why I seem to be out of kilter on here because my beef with the Owners thus far is Ive seen little to evidence their intent to taker us to the next level.
They may do in due course and if they do then Id be satisfied indeed. However ,so far the signs have not been that encouraging.
Personally, I want Jenkins and Dineen removed and replaced with quality professional men to take us forward
I don't share the view we have reached our zenith.
The future could be very exciting but we ve yet to take comfort from Kaplan and Levein.
Kaplan and Levein can take us forward with £20m in the Trust's bank account.
When we do reach our zenith and go on inevitable downward spiral. Trust steps in and takes control of club.
It may take 10 years but Club is then truly owned by the fans.
1
Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 11:57 - Feb 22 with 2277 views
Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 11:49 - Feb 22 by Nookiejack
Kaplan and Levein can take us forward with £20m in the Trust's bank account.
When we do reach our zenith and go on inevitable downward spiral. Trust steps in and takes control of club.
It may take 10 years but Club is then truly owned by the fans.
Unfortunately I really don't think majority on the Trust board want to sell the stake. Hence why they will find an excuse not to proceed with the legal action.
They understand that if they win one of the Remedies could be for their shares to be bought out on same terms as selling shareholders. However they don't really want to sell.
They have an opportunity to launch legal action, bank the £20m when they win, with then a chance of eventual control of club by fans.
I think they are going to throw the opportunity away.
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Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 12:05 - Feb 22 with 2263 views
Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 11:49 - Feb 22 by Nookiejack
Kaplan and Levein can take us forward with £20m in the Trust's bank account.
When we do reach our zenith and go on inevitable downward spiral. Trust steps in and takes control of club.
It may take 10 years but Club is then truly owned by the fans.
There is no guarantee that the Americans will sell to the Trust. We are a bigger club now compared to 2002. Back then, the Trust was the only buyer in town. Now, the club has become fairly well known in the world of football. There is a good chance that a buyer could come in and out bid the Trust.
[Post edited 22 Feb 2017 12:37]
#backtojack
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Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 12:34 - Feb 22 with 2237 views
Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 12:05 - Feb 22 by Landore_Jack
There is no guarantee that the Americans will sell to the Trust. We are a bigger club now compared to 2002. Back then, the Trust was the only buyer in town. Now, the club has become fairly well known in the world of football. There is a good chance that a buyer could come in and out bid the Trust.
[Post edited 22 Feb 2017 12:37]
Yes agreed but you have relatively no opportunity at all without the £20m.
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Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 16:01 - Feb 22 with 1592 views
Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 11:57 - Feb 22 by Nookiejack
Unfortunately I really don't think majority on the Trust board want to sell the stake. Hence why they will find an excuse not to proceed with the legal action.
They understand that if they win one of the Remedies could be for their shares to be bought out on same terms as selling shareholders. However they don't really want to sell.
They have an opportunity to launch legal action, bank the £20m when they win, with then a chance of eventual control of club by fans.
I think they are going to throw the opportunity away.
This is my concern.
I don't think it should be up to the Trust Board, especially because of recent huge mistakes.
We can't afford to allow the same people to make this decision.
It's time for them to present the both scenario's and for the members/fans to decide, and naturally if you want to vote you'll have to join.
The arguments for both sides should be fair, clear and with nothing held back. Then the electorate can make an informed decision.
This isn't up to 12 men or women with a poor track record in making key judgments to decide.
* BOX OFFICE POST ABOVE* TM
I am the resurrection and i am the light. I couldn’t ever bring myself to hate you as i’d like
I agree with Chris that this should be put to the members quickly and let's not wait to see whether we stay up or get relegated. Let's just get this sorted, one way or another.
If the vote goes to take no legal action then we "move on" although the sell-outs will never be forgiven by many
If the vote goes to take legal action, then we go for it and get stuck in to them
I'm fed up this will we / won't we limbo-land.
Proud to have been one of the 231
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Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 17:34 - Feb 22 with 1532 views
Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 16:45 - Feb 22 by Vetchfielder
I agree with Chris that this should be put to the members quickly and let's not wait to see whether we stay up or get relegated. Let's just get this sorted, one way or another.
If the vote goes to take no legal action then we "move on" although the sell-outs will never be forgiven by many
If the vote goes to take legal action, then we go for it and get stuck in to them
I'm fed up this will we / won't we limbo-land.
Exactly!!
* BOX OFFICE POST ABOVE* TM
I am the resurrection and i am the light. I couldn’t ever bring myself to hate you as i’d like
Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 16:45 - Feb 22 by Vetchfielder
I agree with Chris that this should be put to the members quickly and let's not wait to see whether we stay up or get relegated. Let's just get this sorted, one way or another.
If the vote goes to take no legal action then we "move on" although the sell-outs will never be forgiven by many
If the vote goes to take legal action, then we go for it and get stuck in to them
I'm fed up this will we / won't we limbo-land.
The Selling shareholders who have residual stakes don't appear to have been concerned that conflict with the Trust could reduce the club's chances of staying up. Similarly until recently (re: the building bridges stuff) the Yanks.
Yet the Trust has to wait until safety is achieved - while the value of its stake is chipped away at - assuming the longer you delay - you implicitly accept the new status quo. The Sale was completed 21s July 16 and next week we are into March-17?
Would people keep delaying if it was their own money at stake? Yet doesn't the Trust Board have a duty to its members to protect the £20m at stake?
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Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 19:11 - Feb 22 with 1465 views
Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 18:44 - Feb 22 by Nookiejack
The Selling shareholders who have residual stakes don't appear to have been concerned that conflict with the Trust could reduce the club's chances of staying up. Similarly until recently (re: the building bridges stuff) the Yanks.
Yet the Trust has to wait until safety is achieved - while the value of its stake is chipped away at - assuming the longer you delay - you implicitly accept the new status quo. The Sale was completed 21s July 16 and next week we are into March-17?
Would people keep delaying if it was their own money at stake? Yet doesn't the Trust Board have a duty to its members to protect the £20m at stake?
I'd vote for legal action if the QC advises there's a good case. Presumably that legal advice will be available to members before they're asked to vote.
Does anyone know did the American buyers know prior to purchase of shares that there was an original sha that was superdpceded by a new one just before they bought the shares or did they see the original sha and say we can't buy on those terms come back when they are more favourable.
We are the first Welsh club to reach the Premier League Simples
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Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 20:49 - Feb 22 with 1424 views
Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 19:11 - Feb 22 by longlostjack
I'd vote for legal action if the QC advises there's a good case. Presumably that legal advice will be available to members before they're asked to vote.
Yes agreed.
You would think the QC will give an indication of probability of success - as you can never be 100% certain of winning. If only 10% chance of winning then I wouldn't take legal action - if 50% : 50% or less I would - given the £20m at stake.
QC will also detail range of remedies.
For example one remedy may be that the Trust's stake is bought out - by the selling shareholders - given they changed the articles unfairly prejudicially to the minority shareholder (i.e. The Trust) - locking the Trust's shares in with no ongoing liquidity for them. Hence because Yanks bought 68% - Trust would receive 21% of 68% = 14% (£14m) and be left with 7% residual stake. The selling shareholders would pay the £14m out of their proceeds increasing their residual stake. If Yanks have done an additional deal with the selling shareholders to buy their residual shares at some later stage - this would also apply to the Trust's 7% residual stake.
It would appear to be more difficult to launch an action against the Yanks - under changing the articles - as the selling shareholders changed them before the sale. They also seem to have covered themselves under an action related to the Original Shareholders Agreement - as seemed to have got the selling shareholders to indemnify/warrant them against an action brought under this.
So the Yanks will argue they bought the shares in good faith - although in the background may well have required the selling shareholders to change the articles as a pre condition of buying the selling shareholders' shares. If evidence is uncovered that they did this - they could then become embrolied in the legal action. Yanks may then have to buyout the Trust. Or combination of selling shareholders and Yanks buy the Trust's stake.
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Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 20:53 - Feb 22 with 1419 views
Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 20:49 - Feb 22 by Nookiejack
Yes agreed.
You would think the QC will give an indication of probability of success - as you can never be 100% certain of winning. If only 10% chance of winning then I wouldn't take legal action - if 50% : 50% or less I would - given the £20m at stake.
QC will also detail range of remedies.
For example one remedy may be that the Trust's stake is bought out - by the selling shareholders - given they changed the articles unfairly prejudicially to the minority shareholder (i.e. The Trust) - locking the Trust's shares in with no ongoing liquidity for them. Hence because Yanks bought 68% - Trust would receive 21% of 68% = 14% (£14m) and be left with 7% residual stake. The selling shareholders would pay the £14m out of their proceeds increasing their residual stake. If Yanks have done an additional deal with the selling shareholders to buy their residual shares at some later stage - this would also apply to the Trust's 7% residual stake.
It would appear to be more difficult to launch an action against the Yanks - under changing the articles - as the selling shareholders changed them before the sale. They also seem to have covered themselves under an action related to the Original Shareholders Agreement - as seemed to have got the selling shareholders to indemnify/warrant them against an action brought under this.
So the Yanks will argue they bought the shares in good faith - although in the background may well have required the selling shareholders to change the articles as a pre condition of buying the selling shareholders' shares. If evidence is uncovered that they did this - they could then become embrolied in the legal action. Yanks may then have to buyout the Trust. Or combination of selling shareholders and Yanks buy the Trust's stake.
So if the case ends with the adjudication being that the Yanks must buy out the Trust shareholding for the same price per share that they paid for the sell outs shares, and the Yanks refuse to do so for whatever reason (maybe claiming they don't have the funds to buy them), what then?
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Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 21:39 - Feb 22 with 1393 views
Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 20:53 - Feb 22 by NeathJack
So if the case ends with the adjudication being that the Yanks must buy out the Trust shareholding for the same price per share that they paid for the sell outs shares, and the Yanks refuse to do so for whatever reason (maybe claiming they don't have the funds to buy them), what then?
You would think from the facts the first action would be against the selling shareholders. They also have £68m currently in their bank accounts. They pay £14m to Trust and are left with £54m in their bank accounts. Trust keeps 7% residual stake in proportion to the selling shareholders residual stakes.
If Yanks are brought into it and refuse to pay - that would be very serious - maybe Judge orders them to sell a proportion or all of their 68% stake. Or handover a slice of it to the Trust. Trust achieves magic 25%. If they haven't got funds behind them - then maybe that leads to a fire sale of their stake. You could only see that happening (refusing to pay)if we become relegated and went into a downward spiral. If we stay up they might well want to buy the Trust's stake anyway.
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Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 21:41 - Feb 22 with 1389 views
Build Bridges with Americans/Sell Outs or Respectfully Proceed with Legal Action on 21:39 - Feb 22 by Nookiejack
You would think from the facts the first action would be against the selling shareholders. They also have £68m currently in their bank accounts. They pay £14m to Trust and are left with £54m in their bank accounts. Trust keeps 7% residual stake in proportion to the selling shareholders residual stakes.
If Yanks are brought into it and refuse to pay - that would be very serious - maybe Judge orders them to sell a proportion or all of their 68% stake. Or handover a slice of it to the Trust. Trust achieves magic 25%. If they haven't got funds behind them - then maybe that leads to a fire sale of their stake. You could only see that happening (refusing to pay)if we become relegated and went into a downward spiral. If we stay up they might well want to buy the Trust's stake anyway.
There's a hell of a lot of think, might and maybes there.
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