| Will lessons be learned if we survive? 06:46 - May 8 with 7821 views | E20Jack |
I genuinely believe that the Americans took over completely underestimating the need in constant, quality investment in the playing side. Seeing us as a safe mid table Premier League side, and they would be able to get a cheap deal with minimal investment and get some nice dividends from the profits every year. Sadly I think Jenkins did nothing to convince them otherwise, not to rock the boat. If they knew the club needed £15m-£20m net spend at least per season they wouldnt have been so keen.
Unfortunately football, and more specifically Premier League football, isnt like that. You can not scrimp and save otherwise you will be found out extremely quickly and your £100m+ business could end up a £30m business struggling to even pay its running costs before you can say "Blackburn Rovers".
If we do stay up by a gnats hair, and there is still an awful lot of work to do for that to happen, do you think the Americans will have realised the errors of their ways and redirect club income towards the playing side (Gylfi and Borja sale + the usual £15m) or do you think we will continue to let our top players go and replace with the standard £5m player?
We should have a small squad full of quality in order to finance the wage structure. A but like the Laudrup era. The frustrating thing is after this debacle is over, we have a real chance to progress given the right backing, yet I have a horrible feeling that the vision of the fans and the vision of the owners do not marry up.
I think after this season is out, as 21% shareholder the Trust deserve to know what direction the club is going in, what are the actual immediate plans regarding transfer budget and whether it is a low investment "surviving excercise" or are we actually looking to improve the club.
Is this something the Trust will be doing? |  |
| |  |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 14:33 - May 8 with 1188 views | Uxbridge |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 13:52 - May 8 by E20Jack |
It's not. £15m net spend on players doesn't mean we have to be £15m on debt as a result.
Yes that's the point. Money is being spent in the wrong areas currently, the club needs £15m of investment into the playing squad net every season to continue to progress. We have £100m+ income. There is no excuse that is even remotely feasible as to why this cannot be workable. None.
And if it continues to be "unworkable" due to shareholders taking too much dividends, shareholders taking too much wages, building yet more infrastructure, paying off yet more useless managers who have been offered too long contracts then we may as well go down this season and get it over and done with. Why prolong the inevitable. [Post edited 8 May 2017 13:56]
|
The reason there isn't £15m net available on players is absolutely nothing to do with dividends or director remumeration. Not even close.
It's player wages. You'd need a significant cut in those. Unless that happens, it's pie in the sky. |  |
| |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 14:48 - May 8 with 1172 views | waynekerr55 |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 14:30 - May 8 by Gowerjack |
He already owns a substantial property on Gower.
And there is no such place as The Gower,something I may have mentioned on here previously. |
"He already owns a substantial property on Gower. "
 |  |
| |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 15:17 - May 8 with 1148 views | Dr_Winston |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 11:34 - May 8 by A_Fans_Dad |
DR Winston, what do you think has happened in the 5 years since your £15-16M that Laudrup spent in 2012.
Do you actually think that you can still buy players of the same quality for the same prices as then.
I would suggest that the prices for Prem quality players have at least doubled since then, if not trebled. |
Leicester won the title with a total of £7m spent on Kante, Mahrez and Vardy.
A well funded, well manned scouting system can absolutely find Premier League standard players for £5m or less. The belief that you can only succeed by joining in with the spending arms race is simply wrong.
Plenty of teams have spent far more than us since 2011 and done worse. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
| |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 15:33 - May 8 with 1125 views | E20Jack |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 14:33 - May 8 by Uxbridge |
The reason there isn't £15m net available on players is absolutely nothing to do with dividends or director remumeration. Not even close.
It's player wages. You'd need a significant cut in those. Unless that happens, it's pie in the sky. |
Huh? I am not understanding what you are trying to say.
Everything spent is a reason we do not invest, not specificially player wages. £3m in dividends, £10m on Training facilities x amount of millions in numerous severance packages are ALL contributing factors to us not being more influencial in the transfer market.
What you would say woukd make sense if wages were at 90-100% of turnover - but that isnt the case. After a clearout of the likes of Gomis, Montero, VDH, Borja there would be more than enough for a net spend of £15m and allow for their wages into our structure. It doesnt take a maths genius to work out our financies are being severely mismanaged.
The fact you think spending £15m net on transfers per season is "pie in the sky" with an income of £100m and a seemingly ever increasing Sky deal is stunning. Its incomoetance, pure and simple and should not be accepted as "the norm" or in any way "prudent". Its gross negligence. | |
| |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 15:37 - May 8 with 1116 views | E20Jack |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 15:17 - May 8 by Dr_Winston |
Leicester won the title with a total of £7m spent on Kante, Mahrez and Vardy.
A well funded, well manned scouting system can absolutely find Premier League standard players for £5m or less. The belief that you can only succeed by joining in with the spending arms race is simply wrong.
Plenty of teams have spent far more than us since 2011 and done worse. |
Leicester is the exception, not the rule. Something you will probably not see again in our life time. So to use that as a sustainable model is disingenuous. Very much like the "keepers should shoot more" view of Vincent Tan because he saw a keeper score a freak goal once. leicester were heading for relegation less than 7 months after.
There is a direct correlation between spend and finishing position. You say clubs have spent more and done worse but also ignore the clubs that have spent less and done worse (far more examples of that than the former).
In Laymans terms we would have far more chance of continuous improvement by investing in the playing squad rather than investing less than what leaves us yearly. Thats just common sense. And lastly nobody is suggesting wreckless spending, £15m a year net. Its 13% of our income and should absolutely be managebale - no question. If it isnt then heads should be rolling.
If the Trust share your view - that is utterly frightening. [Post edited 8 May 2017 15:44]
| |
| |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 15:39 - May 8 with 1110 views | waynekerr55 |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 15:17 - May 8 by Dr_Winston |
Leicester won the title with a total of £7m spent on Kante, Mahrez and Vardy.
A well funded, well manned scouting system can absolutely find Premier League standard players for £5m or less. The belief that you can only succeed by joining in with the spending arms race is simply wrong.
Plenty of teams have spent far more than us since 2011 and done worse. |
Spot on.
Which is why ousting Gonzo and his band of merry men come the summer is the single most crucial thing for the club in years. | |
| |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 15:53 - May 8 with 1077 views | magicdaps10 |
Think what we have to learn from is that our scouting system has to be better. The scouting on players for the last 2 years has been terrible.
Jenkins has to take a big majority of what has gone wrong with the scouting system and also what he done with the involvement of selling the club, in the way it was done...........surely with those two glaringly obvious issues, he has to go. |  |
| |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 16:49 - May 8 with 1044 views | AngelRangelQS |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 15:33 - May 8 by E20Jack |
Huh? I am not understanding what you are trying to say.
Everything spent is a reason we do not invest, not specificially player wages. £3m in dividends, £10m on Training facilities x amount of millions in numerous severance packages are ALL contributing factors to us not being more influencial in the transfer market.
What you would say woukd make sense if wages were at 90-100% of turnover - but that isnt the case. After a clearout of the likes of Gomis, Montero, VDH, Borja there would be more than enough for a net spend of £15m and allow for their wages into our structure. It doesnt take a maths genius to work out our financies are being severely mismanaged.
The fact you think spending £15m net on transfers per season is "pie in the sky" with an income of £100m and a seemingly ever increasing Sky deal is stunning. Its incomoetance, pure and simple and should not be accepted as "the norm" or in any way "prudent". Its gross negligence. |
Wages aren't far away from 90% of our turnover are they?
Some things we've had to spend money on such as the training facilities - presumably it has helped us attract a lot of players.
Also, it is a really tangible asset that we can benefit from when we get relegated (which we will do eventually) and the overpaid players have long moved on. |  | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 16:54 - May 8 with 1037 views | AngelRangelQS |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 15:17 - May 8 by Dr_Winston |
Leicester won the title with a total of £7m spent on Kante, Mahrez and Vardy.
A well funded, well manned scouting system can absolutely find Premier League standard players for £5m or less. The belief that you can only succeed by joining in with the spending arms race is simply wrong.
Plenty of teams have spent far more than us since 2011 and done worse. |
I think there is always going to be some misses when you try and buy players for relatively cheap amounts in the hope that they turn into diamonds. However, you would expect that a semi decent team of scouts would have done better over the last few years where quite frankly, the misses outweigh the hits.
At the same time, when proven quality players become available then we need to be looking seriously at them, even if they are more expensive. For me, the likes of Allen and Chadli were no brainers last summer. | | | |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 17:19 - May 8 with 1008 views | A_Fans_Dad |
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the new Sky/BT deal now worth around £180M instead of £100M? |  | | |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 17:35 - May 8 with 999 views | swan_si |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 07:59 - May 8 by STID2017 |
Leads to the question - are Llorente, Mawson, Ollson, Carroll, Ayew and Narsingh all HJ's signings ? (Believe Borja was a knee jerk signing) |
are Llorente, Mawson, Ollson, Carroll, Ayew and Narsingh all HJ's signings ?
no, only the sh!t ones. |  | | |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 17:43 - May 8 with 992 views | Dr_Winston |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 15:37 - May 8 by E20Jack |
Leicester is the exception, not the rule. Something you will probably not see again in our life time. So to use that as a sustainable model is disingenuous. Very much like the "keepers should shoot more" view of Vincent Tan because he saw a keeper score a freak goal once. leicester were heading for relegation less than 7 months after.
There is a direct correlation between spend and finishing position. You say clubs have spent more and done worse but also ignore the clubs that have spent less and done worse (far more examples of that than the former).
In Laymans terms we would have far more chance of continuous improvement by investing in the playing squad rather than investing less than what leaves us yearly. Thats just common sense. And lastly nobody is suggesting wreckless spending, £15m a year net. Its 13% of our income and should absolutely be managebale - no question. If it isnt then heads should be rolling.
If the Trust share your view - that is utterly frightening. [Post edited 8 May 2017 15:44]
|
Sunderland had a net spend of £15m this season. A net spend of £37m the year before. £14m the year before that. By your logic they should be way ahead of us. Tottenham's net spend over the last five seasons is miniscule in comparison to plenty of teams well below them in the Premier League.
In fact, it seems that the only real correlation between spending and league position seems to be that the teams who spend better do better.
I suspect the Trust view would be that the club should live within its means. If we can afford to spend £15m a season, then great. If not, then we can't. Any other view would be frightening. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
| |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 18:40 - May 8 with 954 views | MyFinalHeaven |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 17:43 - May 8 by Dr_Winston |
Sunderland had a net spend of £15m this season. A net spend of £37m the year before. £14m the year before that. By your logic they should be way ahead of us. Tottenham's net spend over the last five seasons is miniscule in comparison to plenty of teams well below them in the Premier League.
In fact, it seems that the only real correlation between spending and league position seems to be that the teams who spend better do better.
I suspect the Trust view would be that the club should live within its means. If we can afford to spend £15m a season, then great. If not, then we can't. Any other view would be frightening. |
The problem is that we're living below our means. We spent the least in the last two windows, and in the last 5 seasons we've got the lowest net spend out of all the clubs in the Premier League. In fact, we're the only club in that period of time that has a transfer surplus. When we're in the relegation zone with upgrades in many positions desperately needed but not spending, then that's a huge problem, and it needs to be bloody addressed.
"In fact, it seems that the only real correlation between spending and league position seems to be that the teams who spend better do better."
This cannot be further from the truth. Spending isn't the end all be all indicator of a club's league position but to say that it isn't a very strong correlator is downright ridiculous and patently false. Have a look at this table showing spending by all EPL clubs in the last 5 seasons. You really think it's a coincidence that the 5 clubs that spent the most (Man City, Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal, and Liverpool) just so happen to also be in the top 6 of the league? Do you also think it's a coincidence that of the 5 clubs that spent the least, 4 of them (Us, Boro, Hull, and Burnley) are in the bottom 5 of the league?
http://www.transferleague.co.uk/premier-league-last-five-seasons/transfer-league
You can talk about Tottenham all you like, but they're an obvious anomaly and a completely isolated case when it comes to net spend due to their windfall of getting £100m for a single player (Bale). As such they're a very poor example to use in this argument. [Post edited 8 May 2017 18:58]
|  |
| |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 18:47 - May 8 with 947 views | E20Jack |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 17:43 - May 8 by Dr_Winston |
Sunderland had a net spend of £15m this season. A net spend of £37m the year before. £14m the year before that. By your logic they should be way ahead of us. Tottenham's net spend over the last five seasons is miniscule in comparison to plenty of teams well below them in the Premier League.
In fact, it seems that the only real correlation between spending and league position seems to be that the teams who spend better do better.
I suspect the Trust view would be that the club should live within its means. If we can afford to spend £15m a season, then great. If not, then we can't. Any other view would be frightening. |
Sunderland are not Swansea. They have a history of awful spending - we dont.
I am not sure why you are taking isolated teams and comparing them without context. Spend has absolutely everything to do with success, pointing out that in "some" cases it doesn't work isn't dispelling the fact that it most clearly does correlate.
Chelsea, Man City, Man United, Arsenal and Liverpool have the top 5 net spends in the last 5 years.
Swansea, Middlesborough, Burnley and Hull make up the bottom 6.
Nobody is saying spend wrecklessly on rubbish. The point being made is investment in the side is needed, continuous investment. And 10-15% of turnover represents a good sustainable amount. Yet we dont even seem capable of that meaning we have to take far more risks in the transfer market invariably leading to a squad full of dead wood chewing through our wage budget.
Its basics. | |
| |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 18:48 - May 8 with 945 views | Oldjack |
Ones thing for sure the treacherous Huw will not leave ,he's way to far up his own arsehole now ,just remember peasants i put this club on the world stage
bargain basement buys will always be top of the agender for a club of out size ,which unfortunately is the only way we can survive |  |
| Prosser the Tosser dwells on Phil's bum hole like a rusty old hemorrhoid ,fact
You Greedy Bastards Get Out Of OUR Club!
|
| |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 19:02 - May 8 with 929 views | Quincy999 |
If we stay up Huw will stay and the Trust will be bypassed again. These types of people don't learn. In their minds they are probably blaming the Trust for our position. [Post edited 8 May 2017 19:04]
| | | |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 19:39 - May 8 with 899 views | max936 |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 15:17 - May 8 by Dr_Winston |
Leicester won the title with a total of £7m spent on Kante, Mahrez and Vardy.
A well funded, well manned scouting system can absolutely find Premier League standard players for £5m or less. The belief that you can only succeed by joining in with the spending arms race is simply wrong.
Plenty of teams have spent far more than us since 2011 and done worse. |
The spine of the side needs strengthening and has done for at least the last 3 seasons, we're relying on players that got us here, Leon as good as he's been can't go forever cover at fullbacks, new 1st team right back, centre half and forward players with proven goal scoring credentials and creativity, probably 4 to 5 players and that's assuming nobody leaves. |  |
| |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 20:05 - May 8 with 865 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 12:34 - May 8 by AngelRangelQS |
Irrespective of whether we stay up or go down, I fully expect the following to go:
1. Siggy . Approx £25m-£30m
2. Llorente. Approx £5m.
3. Montero. £5m?
4. Borja. £12m?
5. Ki. £7m?
With a bit of luck and the right contacts, we could really improve the squad with that, though the first two will be very big losses. |
Sadly I can't see us getting anything more than 15 million for Siggy. Ihave a feeling Llorente may very well stay. |  |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
| |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 20:21 - May 8 with 847 views | Borojack |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 20:05 - May 8 by Brynmill_Jack |
Sadly I can't see us getting anything more than 15 million for Siggy. Ihave a feeling Llorente may very well stay. |
We have picked up 23 points from the last 17 games.
If we could do that over a season would have a top ten finish..
Only a couple of players short of having a pretty good side I think. |  |
| |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 20:23 - May 8 with 843 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 20:21 - May 8 by Borojack |
We have picked up 23 points from the last 17 games.
If we could do that over a season would have a top ten finish..
Only a couple of players short of having a pretty good side I think. |
I agree. What we need - a right bac who's as good as Ollsson is a left back, a good CDM to finally adequately replace Leon, a creative MF who can take games by the scruff and be consistent throughout the 90 mins. | |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
| |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 20:33 - May 8 with 825 views | QJumpingJack |
Whatever division we are in next season, can the Americans work with The Trust?
Have the Americans learnt from all their PR gaffes this season? | | | |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 21:03 - May 8 with 782 views | morningstar |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 18:47 - May 8 by E20Jack |
Sunderland are not Swansea. They have a history of awful spending - we dont.
I am not sure why you are taking isolated teams and comparing them without context. Spend has absolutely everything to do with success, pointing out that in "some" cases it doesn't work isn't dispelling the fact that it most clearly does correlate.
Chelsea, Man City, Man United, Arsenal and Liverpool have the top 5 net spends in the last 5 years.
Swansea, Middlesborough, Burnley and Hull make up the bottom 6.
Nobody is saying spend wrecklessly on rubbish. The point being made is investment in the side is needed, continuous investment. And 10-15% of turnover represents a good sustainable amount. Yet we dont even seem capable of that meaning we have to take far more risks in the transfer market invariably leading to a squad full of dead wood chewing through our wage budget.
Its basics. |
You are Poppy from the Trolls movie, and i claim my £5! 
We simply cannot afford to buy quality on a year on basis, because with that comes quality wages, it's totally naive to think a club like us can build a team that way as within 4/5 years we could end up with a wage bill twice the size of what we have now! In saying that, there is no reason whatsoever that we cannot build a squad year on in to compete and stay in this league. It's down to management and professionalism. Neither of which we appear to have. |  |
| |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 21:12 - May 8 with 759 views | Uxbridge |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 17:43 - May 8 by Dr_Winston |
Sunderland had a net spend of £15m this season. A net spend of £37m the year before. £14m the year before that. By your logic they should be way ahead of us. Tottenham's net spend over the last five seasons is miniscule in comparison to plenty of teams well below them in the Premier League.
In fact, it seems that the only real correlation between spending and league position seems to be that the teams who spend better do better.
I suspect the Trust view would be that the club should live within its means. If we can afford to spend £15m a season, then great. If not, then we can't. Any other view would be frightening. |
Well it's my view at least. However I think it's safe to say it's the view of the Trust. The club is more than capable of being self sufficient, and indeed should be.
Given the current wage bill, a net spend of £15m isn't plausible. However it is fair to question whether the current wage bill could be reduced ... there's a fair bit of deadwood there. However we all know it's not always easy to ship out that deadwood either.
However, as you say, there's quality out there for more reasonable prices if you're prepared to look for it. January's business is looking better by the week. | |
| |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 21:30 - May 8 with 729 views | Banosswan |
| Will lessons be learned if we survive? on 14:30 - May 8 by Gowerjack |
He already owns a substantial property on Gower.
And there is no such place as The Gower,something I may have mentioned on here previously. |
Gower and The Gower are two different things. Arguably The Gower Peninsular needs to be termed The Gower, to differentiate it from the rest of Gower. |  |
| Ever since my son was... never conceived, because I've never had consensual sex without money involved... I've always kind of looked at you as... a thing, that I could live next to... in accordance with state laws. | | Poll: | How do you like your steak? |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
