| WELSH INDEPENDENCE 09:25 - May 16 with 4102 views | johnlangy |
This is the letter I had published in the Evening Post on Saturday night.
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Wales or West Anglia
In the not too distant future it’s quite likely that Scotland will be independent. It’s also possible that Northern Ireland may have become part of a united Ireland. If that happens the Welsh voice in the remaining ‘union’ will be almost non-existent. Wales would become a sort of West Anglia, just another region of England.
As that possible situation begins to emerge talk of a Welsh Independence referendum will inevitably start.
When faced with that question most people say we can’t afford it. And when you ask them why they believe that they say we have a large fiscal deficit, £15 billion at the last time of measuring. And that’s it. The most important question that could be asked of the Welsh people for centuries and most people look at two numbers as fed to us by the media, Welsh revenue and Welsh expenditure, and say it won’t work. And they don’t ask even the most blatantly obvious question, how are the two numbers calculated.
Welsh revenue means Welsh taxes. But not all Welsh taxes are paid in Wales so are not included in the total. Many companies with HQ’s outside Wales, which is the majority of large companies, pay their VAT and Corporation Tax where their HQ’s are based. So Tesco, for example, pay theirs in Hertfordshire. If you allow for all the other companies doing the same thing the amount to be added to the ‘Welsh Taxes’ figure would be huge.
Welsh Expenditure, you would probably imagine, would mean money spent in Wales. But it includes a huge amount that is not spent in Wales. If the UK government decides to spend on what they describe as a ‘UK’ project 5% is automatically allocated as Welsh expenditure, even though it’s not spent in Wales. For example, when Trident is built approximately £6 billion will be added to Welsh Expenditure (based on population percentage of the UK) even though that money will not be spent in Wales. Then there’s the High Speed rail projects, Crossrail etc etc. Even the Olympics cost us £500 million in Welsh Expenditure. And the benefit to Wales of all these projects was/is/will be minimal. As an independent country Wales would not be liable for these enormous costs.
Also consider what money a Welsh government would not spend. The Welsh ‘share’ of the cost of defence is around £2.3 billion. If Wales was independent our government would probably spend a fairly similar amount to Ireland. That would be about £500 million, an immediate saving of around £1.8 billion. And defence is just one example.
The truth is that the real deficit is far smaller than the £15 billion quoted. And, even though the REAL figure will be a large amount it’s a fact that just about every country in the World runs a fiscal deficit. Wales, as an independent country, would be no different.
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Thoughts ? |  | | |  |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 09:34 - May 16 with 2923 views | LeonWasGod |
I think Trampie should stop writing in to the Evening Post 
Scotland isn't going to become independent any time soon.
And yes, of course Wales could cope as an independent nation if it wanted to (plenty of examples of smaller or similar sized nations who cope just fine). I don't think it will though as it's too divided on the issue. |  | | |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 09:38 - May 16 with 2921 views | skippyjack |
I read the first sentence.. what a f*cking loon.
Scotland independent? Are they really that suicidal up there?
N.Ireland part of Ireland? That Ireland?.. the one that can barely finance a pint of f*cking milk in a super market?
What drugs are you on mate?.. I could use a dose to get away from actual reality for a while. |  |
| The awkward moment when a Welsh Club become the Champions of England.. shh
The Swansea Way.. To upset the odds. | | Poll: | Best Swans Player |
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| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 09:46 - May 16 with 2901 views | raynor94 |
Two minutes of my life I'll never get back again |  |
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| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 09:52 - May 16 with 2892 views | perchrockjack |
It's that part of the Uk whereby a sizeable chunk of the population have more affiation to the Republic to the south . | |
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| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 10:02 - May 16 with 2875 views | skippyjack |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 09:46 - May 16 by raynor94 |
Two minutes of my life I'll never get back again |
He fails to point out that there are around 500-600 thousand English living in Wales who run the majority of companies using English funds.. plus the 200 thousand Europeans who were solely brought into Wales to specifically work in foreign run companies.. add in the Welsh lot..
That's like 1.5 million people.. half of the country relying on England and Europe..
So much for independence..
Half of the Welsh population are English.. not many pure bloods left. | |
| The awkward moment when a Welsh Club become the Champions of England.. shh
The Swansea Way.. To upset the odds. | | Poll: | Best Swans Player |
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| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 10:11 - May 16 with 2868 views | perchrockjack |
Skip
You re smart
You realise you don't have to hate Wales to point out the obvious flaws in the sentimental clowns holding our great little country back
North wales would die overnight without English tourism and second home owners .Villages would be like Bryce Canyon in miniature . Desolate
We need to get more from England and thus need to lock the likes of killerkenny and trumpton in a secure unit as their attitude shames us all | |
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| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 10:17 - May 16 with 2852 views | trampie |
Top letter johnlangy, good work fairplay.  |  |
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| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 10:46 - May 16 with 2825 views | BytholWyn |
The latest estimate puts the number of rest of EU born residents in Wales at 80,000 - that's 2.6% of the population. But why let facts get in the way of the anti-immigrant hysteria of the hard right British press?
It's so sad to see so many Welsh people manifest such self-hatred. So, so sad... |  | | |
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| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 11:49 - May 16 with 2796 views | felixstowe_jack |
What about the Non Welsh born living in Wales, English, Scottish, Irish, EU, the rest of the world? | |
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| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 12:23 - May 16 with 2770 views | SPboy |
John,
A thought provoking post that scares me with its naivety. There is nowhere near enough detail in your figures to even suggest that Wales could be more successful and raise more money than it gets now. I suspect not.
However, would you trust the incompetent loons in Cardiff Bay to manage all this new found wealth and distribute it fairly? ... Wow!!
The Welsh Government has had years to have a go with devolved powers in Health, Education, attracting investment ... and look at where we are
- our kids are being failed & the nation is sliding down the education leagues below ALL other areas of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, the rest of the developed world taking over us - it's pitiful
- our NHS is worse than any other region, shortage of doctors, long waiting lists, p poor performance across the board
- on top of this we have high unemployment, poverty & the lowest paid jobs in the UK. Our industries decimated with poor quality replacement jobs & a lack of investment on infratstructure - are they still debating where the M4 relief road is going to happen?
what do our politicians tell us because THEY are failing US ... it's all down to Westminster & the nasty party, UKIP, Brexit, etc.etc. - pathetic, when all they are interested in is developing one little corner of Wales at the expense of the rest of the country.
Our inward looking lefty politicians have failed to attract any meaningful external investment into just about everywhere except you know where and at what cost?
Scotland is getting cold feet as their oil is drying up, so their independence is not a foregone conclusion. Northern Ireland who knows what will happen there, but a united Ireland ?
For where we are right now, Wales will be an EVEN poorer country in the future if we have to rely on Welsh Labour or the WAG in its current format for our futures |  | | |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 13:17 - May 16 with 2727 views | trampie |
SPboy you make a case for independence and not the other way around.
Wales in the past has been a net creditor to the UK exchequer and more than paid its way over the years.
Wales can do that yet again, people will be fighting wars over commodities like Water and Electricity in years to come and Wales is a net exporter of such valuable goods, we need to be paid the market rate for such goods for starters.
Wales needs investment from central Government, that is what central Governments should do and that is invest in areas of the sovereign state that need it most, when Wales is able to stand on its own two feet it will be able to go its own way if the people choose.
Lots of the wealthiest countries in terms of GDP are small countries some have even smaller population than Wales.
What with Wales scenery, history and people combined with her natural resources an independent Wales could be the greatest country in the whole World. | |
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| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 13:24 - May 16 with 2718 views | siralan |
Mentalist. | | | |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 13:45 - May 16 with 2690 views | sherpajacob |
An independent welsh republic could work.
It would work a lot better if the feck wits in England and Wales hadn't voted to leave the EU.
England as our closest neighbour and only land border will always be our most important market and therefore a,free trade area/ single market with England is vital.
Many similar sized and smaller countries have successfully transitioned to independence, every argument against welsh independence was also made about Slovakian independence, and they are doing fine.
Eire has been independent less than 100 years, and you'd be hard pushed to find Irish citizens wanting to rejoin the UK.
No need for Wales to be a member of NATO, so there's a 2% GDP saving immediately to spend on education, health and infrastructure.
If everything goes tits up(elsewhere), I imagine we could be self sufficient in food and energy. |  |
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| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 14:01 - May 16 with 2663 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 09:38 - May 16 by skippyjack |
I read the first sentence.. what a f*cking loon.
Scotland independent? Are they really that suicidal up there?
N.Ireland part of Ireland? That Ireland?.. the one that can barely finance a pint of f*cking milk in a super market?
What drugs are you on mate?.. I could use a dose to get away from actual reality for a while. |
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| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 14:21 - May 16 with 2649 views | perchrockjack |
Republic
Hmm | |
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| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 14:32 - May 16 with 2631 views | sherpajacob |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 14:21 - May 16 by perchrockjack |
Republic
Hmm |
indeed | |
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| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 14:35 - May 16 with 2625 views | SPboy |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 13:17 - May 16 by trampie |
SPboy you make a case for independence and not the other way around.
Wales in the past has been a net creditor to the UK exchequer and more than paid its way over the years.
Wales can do that yet again, people will be fighting wars over commodities like Water and Electricity in years to come and Wales is a net exporter of such valuable goods, we need to be paid the market rate for such goods for starters.
Wales needs investment from central Government, that is what central Governments should do and that is invest in areas of the sovereign state that need it most, when Wales is able to stand on its own two feet it will be able to go its own way if the people choose.
Lots of the wealthiest countries in terms of GDP are small countries some have even smaller population than Wales.
What with Wales scenery, history and people combined with her natural resources an independent Wales could be the greatest country in the whole World. |
Which part of my post are you having trouble processing?
Which part of my post makes a case for independence? | | | |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 14:37 - May 16 with 2622 views | perchrockjack |
"Could" means it might not
Like Brexit might not be the success it was seen to be
The Unknown.. Leave it alone if possible | |
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| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 14:56 - May 16 with 2586 views | trampie |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 14:35 - May 16 by SPboy |
Which part of my post are you having trouble processing?
Which part of my post makes a case for independence? |
I'm having no trouble processing your post as you have provided nowhere near enough detail to even suggest that Wales is better off being ruled in the main from Westminster.
You make the case for independence by pointing out ''high unemployment, poverty & the lowest paid jobs in the UK. Our industries decimated with poor quality replacement jobs & a lack of investment on infrastructure''. | |
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| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 15:02 - May 16 with 2578 views | johnlangy |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 12:23 - May 16 by SPboy |
John,
A thought provoking post that scares me with its naivety. There is nowhere near enough detail in your figures to even suggest that Wales could be more successful and raise more money than it gets now. I suspect not.
However, would you trust the incompetent loons in Cardiff Bay to manage all this new found wealth and distribute it fairly? ... Wow!!
The Welsh Government has had years to have a go with devolved powers in Health, Education, attracting investment ... and look at where we are
- our kids are being failed & the nation is sliding down the education leagues below ALL other areas of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, the rest of the developed world taking over us - it's pitiful
- our NHS is worse than any other region, shortage of doctors, long waiting lists, p poor performance across the board
- on top of this we have high unemployment, poverty & the lowest paid jobs in the UK. Our industries decimated with poor quality replacement jobs & a lack of investment on infratstructure - are they still debating where the M4 relief road is going to happen?
what do our politicians tell us because THEY are failing US ... it's all down to Westminster & the nasty party, UKIP, Brexit, etc.etc. - pathetic, when all they are interested in is developing one little corner of Wales at the expense of the rest of the country.
Our inward looking lefty politicians have failed to attract any meaningful external investment into just about everywhere except you know where and at what cost?
Scotland is getting cold feet as their oil is drying up, so their independence is not a foregone conclusion. Northern Ireland who knows what will happen there, but a united Ireland ?
For where we are right now, Wales will be an EVEN poorer country in the future if we have to rely on Welsh Labour or the WAG in its current format for our futures |
Well at least you thought about it SPboy unlike skippy, for example, whose comments hardly deserve a mention.
I don't understand where you get naivety from. Not all Welsh taxes being attributed to Wales as revenue is fact and the way the UK government allocate Wales' share of the cost of what they deem UK projects is fact.
The third factor I refer to about what Wales would not spend money on is conjecture on my part but perfectly reasonable in my opinion. To compare what we may spend on defence with what Eire spends is perfectly logical, not naive.
I didn't say that Wales would be more successful or that it could/would raise more money than it does now. I simply pointed out that the revenue/ expenditure gap, which so many people refer to when they say independence wouldn't work, would be far narrower in reality.
You say I don't give near enough detail in my figures but do you think I should be able to give you a number in regard to how much of the VAT and Corporation Tax Tesco pays should be allocated as Welsh Tax revenue ? You know just as well as I do that it's a large number. Add in all the other major companies that do the same and that figure becomes huge.
If you've read my posts over many years you'rd know I have no time for the 'loons' in the Assembly. Having said that, the 'loons' in Westminster have been overseeing the run down of the Welsh economy for 50 years or more.
Can you ever see that changing ? | | | |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 15:05 - May 16 with 2572 views | SPboy |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 14:56 - May 16 by trampie |
I'm having no trouble processing your post as you have provided nowhere near enough detail to even suggest that Wales is better off being ruled in the main from Westminster.
You make the case for independence by pointing out ''high unemployment, poverty & the lowest paid jobs in the UK. Our industries decimated with poor quality replacement jobs & a lack of investment on infrastructure''. |
Very good - so I'll go back to my original post ... why do you think the loons in Cardiff Bay can do better given that in the last decade Wales has gone backwards in the indicators of ALL of its devolved powers ? ... except of course we were the first country to introduce the most expensive plastic bags in the world that is | | | |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 15:06 - May 16 with 2568 views | johnlangy |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 13:45 - May 16 by sherpajacob |
An independent welsh republic could work.
It would work a lot better if the feck wits in England and Wales hadn't voted to leave the EU.
England as our closest neighbour and only land border will always be our most important market and therefore a,free trade area/ single market with England is vital.
Many similar sized and smaller countries have successfully transitioned to independence, every argument against welsh independence was also made about Slovakian independence, and they are doing fine.
Eire has been independent less than 100 years, and you'd be hard pushed to find Irish citizens wanting to rejoin the UK.
No need for Wales to be a member of NATO, so there's a 2% GDP saving immediately to spend on education, health and infrastructure.
If everything goes tits up(elsewhere), I imagine we could be self sufficient in food and energy. |
Definitely with energy and water, probably with food. How many countries can say that. | | | |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 15:09 - May 16 with 2564 views | BytholWyn |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 12:23 - May 16 by SPboy |
John,
A thought provoking post that scares me with its naivety. There is nowhere near enough detail in your figures to even suggest that Wales could be more successful and raise more money than it gets now. I suspect not.
However, would you trust the incompetent loons in Cardiff Bay to manage all this new found wealth and distribute it fairly? ... Wow!!
The Welsh Government has had years to have a go with devolved powers in Health, Education, attracting investment ... and look at where we are
- our kids are being failed & the nation is sliding down the education leagues below ALL other areas of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, the rest of the developed world taking over us - it's pitiful
- our NHS is worse than any other region, shortage of doctors, long waiting lists, p poor performance across the board
- on top of this we have high unemployment, poverty & the lowest paid jobs in the UK. Our industries decimated with poor quality replacement jobs & a lack of investment on infratstructure - are they still debating where the M4 relief road is going to happen?
what do our politicians tell us because THEY are failing US ... it's all down to Westminster & the nasty party, UKIP, Brexit, etc.etc. - pathetic, when all they are interested in is developing one little corner of Wales at the expense of the rest of the country.
Our inward looking lefty politicians have failed to attract any meaningful external investment into just about everywhere except you know where and at what cost?
Scotland is getting cold feet as their oil is drying up, so their independence is not a foregone conclusion. Northern Ireland who knows what will happen there, but a united Ireland ?
For where we are right now, Wales will be an EVEN poorer country in the future if we have to rely on Welsh Labour or the WAG in its current format for our futures |
You're critique of the performance of the Labour Welsh Government has some merit SPboy - particularly in the areas of Education and Health - and the obvious conclusion would be to vote for another party in elections to the Senedd. However, like so many others you are so, so ready to forgive the appalling record of successive Westminster governments in its dealings with Wales.
Take the issue of infrastructure investment. To blame the Welsh Government on this front is laughable when you consider the manner in which successive Tory and Labour governments have ploughed pretty much all major transport spending into London and the South-East. A perfect example is Crossrail. One of Gordon Brown's last acts was to give the go-ahead for Crossrail - with £5.6billion of government funds - without Barnett formula consequentials (i.e. no extra funding for the Welsh Government). This is but one small example - which stands in stark contrast to the failure of the Westminster government to finance M4 improvements - for a modest £1 billion. And that isn't enough - what with Crossrail 2 and HS2 from London to Birmingham in the pipeline.
The plain truth is that the Tories and Labour alike have, in practice, acted as the London and Home Counties Nationalist party - masquerading as the British National Party (shame the name's taken...). I despair at the subservience of so many of my fellow countrymen and women, grasping desperately at whatever meagre crumbs that fall from the masters table.
Welsh independence is a pipedream for as long as we have so little self-respect and dignity. Something the Westminster parties understand only too well. | | | |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 15:09 - May 16 with 2556 views | trampie |
| WELSH INDEPENDENCE on 15:05 - May 16 by SPboy |
Very good - so I'll go back to my original post ... why do you think the loons in Cardiff Bay can do better given that in the last decade Wales has gone backwards in the indicators of ALL of its devolved powers ? ... except of course we were the first country to introduce the most expensive plastic bags in the world that is |
There are bigger loons in Westminster than Cardiff Bay. | |
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