| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 12:48 - May 25 with 866 views | blueytheblue |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 11:43 - May 25 by Wingstandwood |
Al Qaeda did exist pre-2005 but not ISIS. ISIS was created in Iraq by Iraq based insurgents (many ex-camp Bucca prisoners) and is currently led by an Iraqi. There is ummmm a 100% undeniable connection with the Iraq war/invasion and appalling outrage seen in Manchester.
So? That appalling outrage is something Blair and Co should have on their conscience. But hey? Some loons will still come up with the "But yeah, if they didn't do it another Islamist group would have". That is like saying "Yeah, but if the Myra Hindley and Ian Brady didn't do it some one else would have". *Note* conspicuous damning silence/disappearance from Blair i.e. someone that craves media/press attention. Why? |
Might want to revisit your history - ISIS existed in 1999, under the name Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad, affiliated to... Al Qaeda. Did they expand after Iraq war? Sure, not denying that... the fact is, like it or not, they gained more prominence as Al Qaeda became a footnote...
100% undeniable connection indeed...
Reducing the point to "But yeah, if they didn't do it another Islamist group would have" is just a stupid claim to attribute to others. |  |
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| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 13:44 - May 25 with 832 views | Wingstandwood |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 12:48 - May 25 by blueytheblue |
Might want to revisit your history - ISIS existed in 1999, under the name Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad, affiliated to... Al Qaeda. Did they expand after Iraq war? Sure, not denying that... the fact is, like it or not, they gained more prominence as Al Qaeda became a footnote...
100% undeniable connection indeed...
Reducing the point to "But yeah, if they didn't do it another Islamist group would have" is just a stupid claim to attribute to others. |
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| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 13:47 - May 25 with 827 views | Humpty |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 12:48 - May 25 by blueytheblue |
Might want to revisit your history - ISIS existed in 1999, under the name Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad, affiliated to... Al Qaeda. Did they expand after Iraq war? Sure, not denying that... the fact is, like it or not, they gained more prominence as Al Qaeda became a footnote...
100% undeniable connection indeed...
Reducing the point to "But yeah, if they didn't do it another Islamist group would have" is just a stupid claim to attribute to others. |
Semantics.
Al Qaeda and other Islamist groups were tiny with no mass support.
The Iraq war changed that. ISIS were born from Al Qaeda in Iraq. They now have mass support.
The invasion of Iraq created what we now know as ISIS.
Did you support the invasion of Iraq Bluey? |  | | |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 13:52 - May 25 with 817 views | Darran |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 13:47 - May 25 by Humpty |
Semantics.
Al Qaeda and other Islamist groups were tiny with no mass support.
The Iraq war changed that. ISIS were born from Al Qaeda in Iraq. They now have mass support.
The invasion of Iraq created what we now know as ISIS.
Did you support the invasion of Iraq Bluey? |
Did they need mass support then because they seemed to do ok by 9/11 anyway. |  |
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| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:07 - May 25 with 806 views | Humpty |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 13:52 - May 25 by Darran |
Did they need mass support then because they seemed to do ok by 9/11 anyway. |
Yes they did. But they were a tiny group without mass support.
Then we used 9/11 as an excuse to invade a different country that had nothing to do with 9/11, caused hundreds of thousands of deaths and completely destabilized the Middle East.
Creating ISIS who now do have mass support.
F*ck me, it's not hard mun.
Did you support the invasion of Iraq Dar? | | | |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:21 - May 25 with 791 views | Lord_Bony |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 12:21 - May 25 by MrSwerve |
Swansea magistrates evacuated and bottom of mount pleasant closed off earlier...is it just me or is this all a bit over the top? |
Armed police walking in pairs around Newport city centre today...never seen that in a shopping precinct before.
The Championship League finals in Cardiff next week will be a prime target possibly....over 2 billion people watching worldwide...thousands of fans packed together outside the ground in different places..a security nightmare in the making coming up... |  |
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| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:22 - May 25 with 790 views | blueytheblue |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 13:47 - May 25 by Humpty |
Semantics.
Al Qaeda and other Islamist groups were tiny with no mass support.
The Iraq war changed that. ISIS were born from Al Qaeda in Iraq. They now have mass support.
The invasion of Iraq created what we now know as ISIS.
Did you support the invasion of Iraq Bluey? |
Nope, I didn't support Iraq.
Again, Daesh were not born due to either Iraq war, that's a falsehood. They are to Al Qaeda what provisional IRA is to IRA... the reality is recruitment tactics changed. Radicalise abroad, in mosques, in prisons. Convert troubled souls... use Britains born in Britain to murder Britains.
The fact remains the existing tactics adopted by Daesh weren't working. They evolved what they did. Al Qaeda changed to more "lone wolf" style attacks as their leaders were getting wiped out.
Have Daesh got great support in Iraq and Syria? Not really - they rely pretty heavily on foreign born "recruits"; Al Qaeda always peddled the old "Christian-Jew alliance to wipe out Muslims" bs.
Of course the second Iraq war increased their support. It didn't create Daesh and it's a massive assumption to believe no attacks would occur if Iraq hadn't happened. Daesh aims aren't some noble "get justice" campaign after ll, they've killed plenty of Muslims themselves.
What we are seeing is terrorist tactics have evolved. The problem is the radicalisation of natives. | |
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| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:25 - May 25 with 781 views | Darran |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:07 - May 25 by Humpty |
Yes they did. But they were a tiny group without mass support.
Then we used 9/11 as an excuse to invade a different country that had nothing to do with 9/11, caused hundreds of thousands of deaths and completely destabilized the Middle East.
Creating ISIS who now do have mass support.
F*ck me, it's not hard mun.
Did you support the invasion of Iraq Dar? |
I don't support any wars mate. There's enough wealth in the world to avoid all these deaths. | |
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| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:37 - May 25 with 760 views | Humpty |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:22 - May 25 by blueytheblue |
Nope, I didn't support Iraq.
Again, Daesh were not born due to either Iraq war, that's a falsehood. They are to Al Qaeda what provisional IRA is to IRA... the reality is recruitment tactics changed. Radicalise abroad, in mosques, in prisons. Convert troubled souls... use Britains born in Britain to murder Britains.
The fact remains the existing tactics adopted by Daesh weren't working. They evolved what they did. Al Qaeda changed to more "lone wolf" style attacks as their leaders were getting wiped out.
Have Daesh got great support in Iraq and Syria? Not really - they rely pretty heavily on foreign born "recruits"; Al Qaeda always peddled the old "Christian-Jew alliance to wipe out Muslims" bs.
Of course the second Iraq war increased their support. It didn't create Daesh and it's a massive assumption to believe no attacks would occur if Iraq hadn't happened. Daesh aims aren't some noble "get justice" campaign after ll, they've killed plenty of Muslims themselves.
What we are seeing is terrorist tactics have evolved. The problem is the radicalisation of natives. |
I agree it's possible that this might be happening if Iraq didn't happen. We'll never know though.
What we do know is that it didn't happen in the UK before 2005 and MI5 did warn Blair that invading Iraq would make it more likely. They were right.
If you're fighting an enemy it's wise not to do exactly what they want. Al Qaeda carried out 9/11 for a reason. To provoke a massive overreaction in the Midddle East, causing lot's of innocent lives to be lost and thus increasing their support. And we couldn't have helped them more by invading a country on invented grounds that had nothing to do with 9/11, something America was itching to do and was looking for any excuse to do.
And we are where we are. The genie is out of the bottle.
Islamist terrorism existed before 2001, but we've done everything they wanted to make it grow. | | | |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:39 - May 25 with 751 views | Humpty |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:25 - May 25 by Darran |
I don't support any wars mate. There's enough wealth in the world to avoid all these deaths. |
It's hard to find anyone who was for it now.
Strange when you consider that the majority of the UK thought it right at the time. | | | |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:44 - May 25 with 740 views | blueytheblue |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:37 - May 25 by Humpty |
I agree it's possible that this might be happening if Iraq didn't happen. We'll never know though.
What we do know is that it didn't happen in the UK before 2005 and MI5 did warn Blair that invading Iraq would make it more likely. They were right.
If you're fighting an enemy it's wise not to do exactly what they want. Al Qaeda carried out 9/11 for a reason. To provoke a massive overreaction in the Midddle East, causing lot's of innocent lives to be lost and thus increasing their support. And we couldn't have helped them more by invading a country on invented grounds that had nothing to do with 9/11, something America was itching to do and was looking for any excuse to do.
And we are where we are. The genie is out of the bottle.
Islamist terrorism existed before 2001, but we've done everything they wanted to make it grow. |
You're right it didn't happen in the UK before 2005 - there are numerous reasons for that. Tactics changed. Al Qaeda leaders had the lifespan of slug falling into vats of salt... so then the indoctrination, creation of a fifth column began.
Would that have happened anyway? I think it would - maybe not on the timescale that has happened, but it would.
Hatred of the West is just a facade. Real aim is creating that desired caliphate. That means murdering many, many Muslims. The old "we're doing this coz Murica, nuff said" lie is laughable. It's about establishing that power base that Al Qaeda failed to do.
Hence, imo, irrespective of Iraq 2, it would have happened. Maybe a few years down the line... and it's happened because Daesh bided their time. Found weaknesses in our systems - legal, asylum/refugee - and milked them for all it's worth. | |
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| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:44 - May 25 with 738 views | blueytheblue |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:39 - May 25 by Humpty |
It's hard to find anyone who was for it now.
Strange when you consider that the majority of the UK thought it right at the time. |
Easy to say after the fact though. Hindsight and all that. | |
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| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:53 - May 25 with 730 views | sherpajacob |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:44 - May 25 by blueytheblue |
Easy to say after the fact though. Hindsight and all that. |
a significant number were against the war at the time. A few politicians did warn of the consequences, including terrorism.
surprised you were against it bluey, considering your party were enthusiastically for it, particularly your leader and chairperson at the time IDS & May |  |
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| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:58 - May 25 with 718 views | blueytheblue |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:53 - May 25 by sherpajacob |
a significant number were against the war at the time. A few politicians did warn of the consequences, including terrorism.
surprised you were against it bluey, considering your party were enthusiastically for it, particularly your leader and chairperson at the time IDS & May |
Yes, some were against it at the time. If the evidence presented hadn't been "sexed up", had been correct then hindsight would have shown them to be wrong.
I personally didn't buy some of the claims about Hussein. That's just a personal view. May, IDS et al were presented with the intelligence dossiers, correct? They would be making evidence base decisions as a result.
EDIT: The mistake made was Bush not finishing the job in 91 and removing Hussein when there was a far, far stronger rationale to do so. [Post edited 25 May 2017 14:59]
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| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:59 - May 25 with 715 views | Humpty |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:44 - May 25 by blueytheblue |
Easy to say after the fact though. Hindsight and all that. |
I found it pretty easy before the fact. So did many others. Many journalists, many writers, many people who knew the Middle East far more than Tony f*cking Blair and the Texan idiot.
The people who were behind it never hid their intentions, They publicized them years before the event. The Soviets are gone, we are now the only superpower, this is our chance to do whatever the f*ck we want and what we want is to invade Iraq. We just need an excuse, to sell it to the public.
And then they got their excuse, and set off doing exactly what they were itching to do anyway.
I don't think you needed to be a genius to see what was going on. Not when the main player tells you their intentions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century | | | |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 15:10 - May 25 with 691 views | Humpty |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:58 - May 25 by blueytheblue |
Yes, some were against it at the time. If the evidence presented hadn't been "sexed up", had been correct then hindsight would have shown them to be wrong.
I personally didn't buy some of the claims about Hussein. That's just a personal view. May, IDS et al were presented with the intelligence dossiers, correct? They would be making evidence base decisions as a result.
EDIT: The mistake made was Bush not finishing the job in 91 and removing Hussein when there was a far, far stronger rationale to do so. [Post edited 25 May 2017 14:59]
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EDIT: The mistake made was Bush not finishing the job in 91 and removing Hussein when there was a far, far stronger rationale to do so.
There was a reason why Bush did not remove Saddam in 91.
We are experiencing those reasons right now. | | | |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 15:24 - May 25 with 660 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:37 - May 25 by Humpty |
I agree it's possible that this might be happening if Iraq didn't happen. We'll never know though.
What we do know is that it didn't happen in the UK before 2005 and MI5 did warn Blair that invading Iraq would make it more likely. They were right.
If you're fighting an enemy it's wise not to do exactly what they want. Al Qaeda carried out 9/11 for a reason. To provoke a massive overreaction in the Midddle East, causing lot's of innocent lives to be lost and thus increasing their support. And we couldn't have helped them more by invading a country on invented grounds that had nothing to do with 9/11, something America was itching to do and was looking for any excuse to do.
And we are where we are. The genie is out of the bottle.
Islamist terrorism existed before 2001, but we've done everything they wanted to make it grow. |
100% correct . Great post |  |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
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| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 15:26 - May 25 with 657 views | Darran |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 14:39 - May 25 by Humpty |
It's hard to find anyone who was for it now.
Strange when you consider that the majority of the UK thought it right at the time. |
Did the majority of the UK think it right at the time though? And even if they did what's the relevance the turning point was Blair standing up in that great constitution the House of Commons and telling lies. | |
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| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 15:37 - May 25 with 637 views | Humpty |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 15:26 - May 25 by Darran |
Did the majority of the UK think it right at the time though? And even if they did what's the relevance the turning point was Blair standing up in that great constitution the House of Commons and telling lies. |
Yes. They did.
But now many of them pretend they didn't.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/surveys-reveal-how-we-remember-not | | | |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 15:41 - May 25 with 628 views | Darran |
Ah right I see though it's still irrelevant because those people supporting it didn't push it through. | |
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| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 15:47 - May 25 with 620 views | Humpty |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 15:41 - May 25 by Darran |
Ah right I see though it's still irrelevant because those people supporting it didn't push it through. |
It's not irrelevant.
Blair wouldn't have done it if he thought it would lose him an election.
He went on to win another two. | | | |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 15:55 - May 25 with 602 views | Darran |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 15:47 - May 25 by Humpty |
It's not irrelevant.
Blair wouldn't have done it if he thought it would lose him an election.
He went on to win another two. |
He didn't. | |
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| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 16:06 - May 25 with 586 views | Humpty |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 15:55 - May 25 by Darran |
He didn't. |
You're correct. Sorry.
He went on to win one more.
Point still stands. The British public supported Blair and the war. [Post edited 25 May 2017 16:06]
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| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 16:08 - May 25 with 580 views | Darran |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 16:06 - May 25 by Humpty |
You're correct. Sorry.
He went on to win one more.
Point still stands. The British public supported Blair and the war. [Post edited 25 May 2017 16:06]
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Well I fuçking well didn't. | |
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| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 16:11 - May 25 with 572 views | Humpty |
| Suspected explosion at Manchester Arena concert. on 16:08 - May 25 by Darran |
Well I fuçking well didn't. |
Me neither.
Enough did unfortunately. | | | |
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