| Fans Parliament 17:29 - May 21 with 70156 views | TwelveAngryMen |
Are we looking at the start a Tangerine Spring ?
Or is it an attempt to curb the growing influence of fans groups ?
Applications appear on first read of the announcement to be subject to vetting by the Club
The statement seems to infer that anyone who doesn't renew their ST is unlikely to be considered so that's anyone taking a principled NAPM stance this season to the back of the queue ! That will undoubtedly influence the dynamics of representation
Who elects the Board Rep ? I suspect its within the cabal of hand-picked representatives in which case hardly democratic - more like a Fans Cabinet
Which Club officials will they meet ? It does say to be fair to include Club directors so in reality that's suggesting it will involve Karl or Owen
It will be interesting to see how this pans out
http://www.blackpoolfc.co.uk/news/article/club-announces-launch-of-fans-parliame [Post edited 21 May 2015 17:35]
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| Fans Parliament on 22:16 - May 23 with 2952 views | BiggieSeasider |
I think Steve G asks some key questions - why not meet with the representatives of existing fan groups, and what is the qualification process?
The fact that they want to choose who to meet brings the whole idea of Parliament into disrepute. In fact, it is that very fact that makes Parliament a poor choice of name. The people get a choice (or sorts) about who gets selected for Parliament. I see no such choice with this one. Who is best qualified to decide who should represent the views of the fans? Certainly not the club, and certainly not any 'independent panel'. The fans should, and the fact they are not being given a chance to do so only makes me question the motive of the whole thing.
The danger of this whole idea, especially if the wrong sort of people are selected, is that it allows the club to claim they are listening to the fans, whilst enabling them to ignore the views of supporters groups. I would say this would be a nice idea at any other club, but I believe that at most other clubs, the owners would attempt to meet with supporters groups. This idea only serves to undermine them. | |
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| Fans Parliament on 22:51 - May 23 with 2935 views | terminallytangerine |
Some sympathy with this view.
I would much prefer this was the approach though I think it would be pretty difficult to find any group of Blackpool supporters who wouldn't be critical of the way the club has been run since Holloway left. But there is a big difference between wanting a better form of dialogue than rejecting all dialogue because you believe direct action is solving our problems. (The jury is still out on the punishment for the pitch invasion.)
As Ribble says we lose nothing by giving it a go and if it then doesn't lead to the change we want we have at least made the effort to effect change. It would be better therefore if season ticket holders in key positions in the leading organisations put their names forward but the non-aligned also deserve a voice.
Anyway I'm probably upsetting those who think that dialogue is a sign of weakness and shouting is a sign of strength so will end the thread for me there. | | | |
| Fans Parliament on 23:24 - May 23 with 2927 views | phil007tangerine |
Nothing to lose except -
#Undermining the work of BST
#Giving the owners another yet another shield to hide behind. Before it was 'direct all complaints to BSA' (who STILL have a BFC postal address by the way) to deflect criticism, we would have something similar with the 'Fans Parliament', basically a get out of jail card for him to continually play like he did before.
#Allowing Karl to once more, which he cannot now, to say he regularly listens to fans.
#Undermining the protests and demos
Terminal basically wants to keep talking forever, even as Blackpool falls out of the Conference and the bulldozers move in he would chase Karl across the car park and ask for a 'quick word'. | | | |
| Fans Parliament on 09:08 - May 24 with 2874 views | straightatthewall |
Pretty depressing reading these replies from TT and I have to hope it's just a personal view rather than that of the BSA committee, because make no mistake, joining this group will put us right back to where we started.
There has to be an understanding and distinction made between what is needed short term and what is needed long term.
One day, when the club has moved back to sanity and the land of the living, ideas such as this will be welcomed and key to not only building the relationship between club and supporter, so that it is something more than a relationship between company and customer, but also to leveraging what should be an unlimited amount of free support in all sorts of areas that can help the club move forward and progress.
But right now, there's some very simple facts and situations that cannot be ignored and have to be resolved before ANY sort of discussion can take place between the respective parties. They have been laid out by plenty before me and i don't see any need to repeat whats been said there. Suffice to say, before supporters go anywhere near the owners and their hypothetical olive branch, supporters HAVE to see a real olive branch. Real actions and real physical and transparent change to what has gone before.
People need to show some self respect and some dignity and stand firm. All the evidence is there and in place. Bending for them, when theyve not compromised one iota will be weak and selfish. It will be a decision made out of some bizarre and misguided idea that if you close your eyes, click your heels together and sing Glad All Over, we'll somehow be back in Kansas with a team challenging for honours. A little bit of self-sacrifice is needed. | |
| We got Bogdanovic, Oyston got very rich |
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| Fans Parliament on 11:23 - May 24 with 2866 views | brassedoff |
One day, when the club has moved back to sanity and the land of the living - love this line SATW because that's where I feel we're at. It's almost like we're not following anything at the moment - when was the last time we got excited at this point in the summer over transfer rumours, fixtures coming out, plans around the ground? It just seems a long time since we had any sort of normality at this football club and having read and enjoyed the debate on this thread about what needs to happen, what the future could hold and what the club and fans need to do to push forward I'm damned if I know.
It must be like looking over a bomb hit city and think where the Hell do we start but there has to be a start or we all may as well give up on it. | |
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| Fans Parliament on 12:09 - May 24 with 2851 views | Curryman |
Having just seen this thread, I'm shocked at the following statement from Wizzard:
'My personal view as always is that if an opportunity to challenge the current strategy within the club comes along, the fans should take it.'
'As such, I intend to apply for a place on this Forum. He needs telling just how disastrous his policies have been, and if there is a constructive opportunity to do it, then we should take it.'
Yorkshire Seasiders, of which you are the current Chairman, has not had a meeting for two years despite my regular concerns about this;
I am concerned that an organisation which was founded 11 years ago and took a lot of hard work to get going is now in a situation that is going to take an awful lot of getting back from ( this is based on what you told me on Wednesday last);
I would suggest you concentrate your efforts on the organisation which elected you as Chairman rather than spending time in what , I feel, would be a fruitless exercise resulting in an intermember war between factions on the message boards.
I'm sorry I have had to put this on a board read by others, but feel I have tried, unsuccessfully, every other avenue to try and organise a meeting and hope it is not too late to save what is left of Yorkshire Seasiders. | |
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| Fans Parliament on 12:18 - May 24 with 2845 views | Bedfordseasider |
I refer back to my IRA analogy , We would all have liked to have seen them truly defeated & wiped from the the face of the earth but in the end talks had to take place as neither side were going to win by bombing & murdering .
To me talks with the Os start providing they are willing to concede to a 5 point plan .
(i) All legal action & banning orders are stopped & Monies repaid in full.
(ii) Karl Oyston Resigns as chairman & from ALL Football Club activities.
(iii) A CEO be appointed & BST be involved in the selection process
(iv) All Loans be repaid to BFC
(v) Negotiations for change of ownership with BST & Partners commence.within 6 months | | | |
| Fans Parliament on 12:19 - May 24 with 2845 views | TwelveAngryMen |
Interesting to return to this debate and see the range of views
Anyone who thinks that dialogue will achieve anything set against the situation the Club current finds itself in would do well to revisit the statement the Club issued 24 hours earlier, the final paragraph of which reads
' The club will be making formal representations to The FA and The Football League to defend and mitigate both charges as appropriate. The club is in regular dialogue with Lancashire Police and is working very closely to support Lancashire Police and the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) to charge those responsible for the above criminal offences. Further action will be taken to recover damages and costs from those responsible. '
Putting aside the issues of what mandate 12 individuals pre-selected by the Club could possibly have I query how could constructive dialogue take place set against the background of a class action to recover what could be a substantial fine and consequential costs and damages by the Club against a large group of the fans the ' MP's ' will be tasked to represent | |
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| Fans Parliament on 12:26 - May 24 with 2837 views | BenJen |
Tam - what was that statement with regards to and what damages were caused? If the club gets a fine for the pitch invasion do they intend to pass it on to those responsible? | |
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| Fans Parliament on 13:27 - May 24 with 2797 views | we_are_Superior |
Just wondering if any of the great or good on here have put their names forward or whether there is a general consensus to give it a wide berth. I have too much going on in my life to get involved to the degree that they want - I did the fans panel for the Gazette one year and that was as much commitment as I can take.
So anyone put their name forward yet or is there a general feeling that this would be somewhat of a poison chalice. | |
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| Fans Parliament on 13:37 - May 24 with 2791 views | straightatthewall |
Tam,
I think it's a fairly simple choice. Back the parliament under the present conditions and you back and support the destruction of the club.
Anyone joining this group is no different to a wimbledon supporter travelling to Milton Keynes. | |
| We got Bogdanovic, Oyston got very rich |
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| Fans Parliament on 17:40 - May 24 with 2694 views | BiggieSeasider |
I'm sorry if I repeat myself in any way here.
12 people representing the supporters serves no purpose if the supporters themselves haven't chosen them, and the club has. Why does the club fear the supporters selecting their own panel of representatives? I think that's the key issue here. If that isn't addressed then the only purpose served by the panel is that the club gets to say that they are talking to the fans. Some fans maybe, but not THE fans.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. If the Oystons want to start allaying the fears of the fans and quelling the protests, they need to start putting their money where their mouths are. There are several ways that they could do this. That they choose not to, but want to 'talk to the fans (but only those fans they choose)' just suggests that it's all about the perception that they are talking to the fans.
What do they usually say? This is what we're doing. This is why we aren't spending money. We'll build a training ground. Eventually. Maybe. We've had years of talk. And it's cheap. Very cheap when the Oystons are involved. Always tomorrow. Never now. Tomorrow never comes.
I'm sorry but as far as I can see, anyone who applies to join this parliament may well mean well, but like the BSA before, they will only be used to create the perception of communication. But when the result of that 'communication' is only ever one way, the acceptance of 'The Oyston Way', then it's a waste of time.
I think as supporters, we have many questions to ask of ourselves around this. Do we want to enter a false dialogue with the club that will likely be the same as it ever was? Or do we want to bite the bullet. Accept we might have a struggle ahead. It might take months or it might take years. But one day we can be free. We can enjoy dreaming of supporting a football club that is allowed to enjoy the benefits of it's success, instead of broadening the investment portfolio of it's 'owners'. Who knows, maybe a club with owners that actually wanted to to invest in it? Wouldn't that be a kick? Wouldn't that be worth it? [Post edited 24 May 2015 17:41]
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| Fans Parliament on 19:14 - May 24 with 2661 views | billybigbananas |
In a normal club the opportunity for fan representatives to engage in dialogue would be difficult to criticise.
But here?? Sitting down with people who have sued, are suing, and will continue to sue fans? What on earth are people hoping to achieve here? "Tell them straight"? Oh FFS, like they don't know what to do.
Prospective MPs: don't for one second think you are representing me or anyone else in this ridiculous charade. Just you and your puffed up sense of self importance. | | | |
| Fans Parliament on 09:13 - May 25 with 2587 views | WindyMiller |
An excellent thread on the subject and once again Karl has divided the fanbase although I get the feeling this has been invented by the same people who came up with the ridiculous season ticket leaflets based on the election (clearly they had a brainstorming session without any brains). Karl needed a way to appease the fans and he has failed to do it in one fell swoop.
When will he realise that the only way the majority of fans will judge him (I think it's a given that most want him out) is to reverse the decline of the last four years. Competent management, investment in players that go beyond flaky 12 month deals, rewarding the youngsters who step up, having a pitch which is worthy of playing on and ending this ridiculous 'us versus them mentality'.
Personally I think it's all gone too far both on and off the pitch. The fans will never trust him again and to get players to come to this club (let alone a manager) will be an uphill struggle next season. He'll either have to pay over the odds (his own fault) or we will be left with the dregs. | |
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| Fans Parliament on 02:15 - May 26 with 2552 views | terminallytangerine |
Been away for a few days so have only just seen the thread.
Just to reassure SATW all comments from me as ever are indeed my own and no Blackpool supporter was hurt in the making of them.
Its a pity that different views cannot be discussed without the usual prejudiced labelling which doesn't add anything to the debate: better a talker than a stalker even if you are James Bond I always think.
Blackpool supporters are understandably suspicious and Windy Miller is absolutely right when he says,
"When will he realise that the only way the majority of fans will judge him (I think it's a given that most want him out) is to reverse the decline of the last four years. Competent management, investment in players that go beyond flaky 12 month deals, rewarding the youngsters who step up, having a pitch which is worthy of playing on and ending this ridiculous 'us versus them mentality'.
Personally I think it's all gone too far both on and off the pitch."
I see now though that BST have made their official position clear in a statement and will no doubt let their ST members vote on this or make their own minds up? Again it's a personal opinion but I think some of their demands are a bit unrealistic for a first step and I thought describing another supporters group as KO's own was an unfortunate choice of words. (Though I realise for some any questioning is a bit like Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses.)
It may of course come to nothing (and the label parliament does seem a bit pretentious) but if the Os are not going anywhere a dialogue with supporters - ideally with all the fans groups - is in my minority view desirable at some point if the club is to move forward. | | | |
| Fans Parliament on 10:03 - May 26 with 2531 views | BiggieSeasider |
TT, honestly, why bother talking to them? Some of the problems at the club are so well known and so blatant, do we honestly need dialogue to sort them out?
Real measures to fix the problems at the club could be put in place now, without the need for delay by waiting to set up a discussion forum. They know this. You know this. We all know this.
This is all about appeasing the fan base. Like everything at this club, it has to be the fans (or Valeri Belokon) who pay. Do we really want a 'parliament' to take place so that they can turn round and say "yes we acknowledge 12 month contracts are hampering negotiations" and make out that they are listening to us? Give them credit for doing the obvious?
This is simple. The club currently has no outlet for it's non investment agenda. Fans are rightfully angry, and they think they can be appeased and brought back into the fold with more talk. And perhaps they'll throw us a few crumbs of change to make it look like we're being listened to.
A well run club shouldn't rely on this sort of thing to get things right. They should have come out with an immediate statement apologising for the way things had gone wrong, acknowledging the faults and detailing what they were going to do about it. The fact we appear to need a fans parliament to make things happen really shows how much trouble we are in. Heaven help us. We really do need a change of ownership and fast. | |
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| Fans Parliament on 11:49 - May 26 with 2517 views | terminallytangerine |
Again there is not a lot to disagree with there apart from the opening paragraph.
I think we would all like to see a change of ownership and/or a change of investment strategies, but I also think that if we could turn the clock back to the day after the sacking of Paul Ince [not Nice spell checker!] (with perhaps the reinstatement of Thommo) most people, or at least most current season ticket holders, would welcome that (though the owners would still have been guilty of neglect and not putting football first, which is a fantastic slogan. There is no getting away from the mess we are in and whose responsibility this is
But when the alternative is another season of jihad on one side and a total failure of communication on the other something has to break the log jam if we are to move forward. More of the same hurts our supporters and our club more than the owners and we are likely to lose a whole generation of young seasiders for whom supporting Blackpool only means protest.
There is the danger of this being used as a smokescreen as has been suggested but it could also be used to again highlight and prioritise the issues and put them in the public domain through open reporting of discussion. This is another way to effect change and is arguably no less effective than the current stand-off - unless people really do believe that we are in a good place at the moment.
The parliament idea may not get off the ground but I think we need to continue to discuss ways to move forward which also take into account that - God forbid - the Os remain. It may be a minority view but I am pretty sure I'm not a minority of one in wanting my football club to have a season where we really can put football first. This is real-politik rather than capitulation IMHO. [Post edited 26 May 2015 12:03]
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| Fans Parliament on 12:56 - May 26 with 2498 views | straightatthewall |
It's a shame you don't agree with the opening paragraph as it's the crux of this; why is there a need for dialogue at present, when the problems that weigh the clubs down can be easily acknowledged by the owners who, of course, are also in the best place to attempt to solve them.
Things have gone too far and there has been too much metaphorical blood spilt to just say 'let's forget what's happened and look to the future.' The past actions of the owners have to be 'put right' and I'm not having it that they need supporter input to understand what are grievances are. If that IS the case, then they simply don't have the skillset required to run a business such as this. And as a point of order, when I'm talking about 'past actions' I don't mean on the legal side of things, I'm talking purely football.
What I can't 'get' from your side of this debate, is where you're linking dialogue with karl as a way of improving the performance on the pitch. If this was the case, why wasn't it happening when the BSA were in dialogue? Or is it the protests that have derailed things? (even though there's loads of evidence pointing to a decline well before 3/4's of regular supporters even started to realise what was happening.) The implication is that we can move forward with this approach, even though the dialogue is a mere footnote in the main story. It won't change anything unless fundamental changes are made first. Which takes us back to where I started; if people insist on entering into dialogue, please, at the very least, do so AFTER the club has shown a real desire for change by DOING SOMETHING rather than just talking about what it might do.
You mention that you MAY hold a minority view. In my opinion - and I accept it's just that - I think you ARE holding a minority view. And it doesn't serve anyone to let that miniority view be passed off as the majority view by those seeking to make their own capital out of it.
All the things you talk about would be excellent ideas in a normal, positive football club that is looking to work with its fans for the benefit of the club. When we fit that bill, then maybe we can think about this sort of thing. | |
| We got Bogdanovic, Oyston got very rich |
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| Fans Parliament on 13:22 - May 26 with 2485 views | BiggieSeasider |
Speaking as a 2 year season ticket holder, I'm very much of the opinion that these were offered by the club having a clear idea of how the season was going to go right down to level of support (or lack of it) that Riga was going to get. (I want to make this clear that I'm stating this as opinion NOT fact, so nobody get excited). It's hard, having that opinion, not to feel resentment that these people own the club.
I sympathise. I really do. I'd love to see a season of fantastic free flowing football. With a Blackpool team enjoying the benefits of the Premier League money getting a great manager, filled with good players and making a strong attempt at going straight back up. I'd feel like I actually got some value from my season ticket. But in my heart of hearts I know this won't be the case.
Apart from the fact I don't believe the owners have the slightest intention of making that outlay, I don't think they could if they wanted to. I think the reputation of the club is in the gutter. Prospective managers can only see that previous managers haven't been supported. What about prospective players? They see 1 year contracts, pay as you play contracts. They see players sign then play a couple of times before getting written off because you're PAYP deals with low basics. They see the Orlandi situation. What players will come to a club that treats players like that? To get any good players to come here, we'd actually have to pay MORE than other clubs to attract them. And probably offer contract terms that were completely not in the interests of the club. Whilst we've a history of agreeing terms to the detriment of the club (to save £100 a week) I can't see us agreeing to sign anybody for over the odds.
And what about that other chestnut - loans? After what happened to the likes of Feruz Islam(?) I'm not even sure we'll be able to get decent loan players.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say (in my long winded way) is that I think we've actually reached a watershed. I think the reputation of the club under current ownership is so bad that we cannot possibly function as a football club with them. Even if you take them as wanting the best for the club (and have they ever done anything to convince you of this) I think their reputation is beyond repair. It will take a decade for football to forget. Maybe longer. Assuming they ever change their ways.
So, to the parliament. You can only assume, for whatever reason, that this is an attempt to pacify the fans. It can only be seen as a sign of an intent on the owners part to stick around. And for the reasons stated above, I just don't think that can possibly work. So is there any point entering dialogue with a view to accepting them staying around? I really don't think there is. We were having these conversations a decade ago. If we stop now, we'll be having the same conversations in another decade. Assuming after the 2 year rip off and another relegation there are any supporters left. The long game for the future of this club says we can't give up now.
For what it's worth, I don't think what the BST have suggested is unreasonable. But I don't think it will be considered acceptable, because the point of parliament isn't about the fans. But it should be. | |
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| Fans Parliament on 13:25 - May 26 with 2484 views | BigHandsOliverKahn |
It's the absence of hope regarding any possibility that the O's will sell that causes people to look for different ways of improving things. If someone won't sell, never has sold in the past when the club was in an even worse state than today (derelict ground and no money in the holding companies), and will probably still own it even if the team is in non-league, then you start to ask yourself if the continuation of protests and negativity are worse than the option of making the most of what you've actually got.
Some people have season tickets next year and want to watch a decent team in the next 12 months but it seems the more trouble being caused off the pitch is just adding to how poor we are becoming on it. It's almost like the O's have said, ride the storm, this is no time to invest, we'll only put more money in once it all blows over. | | | |
| Fans Parliament on 14:22 - May 26 with 2457 views | straightatthewall |
Superhands:
"It's almost like the O's have said, ride the storm, this is no time to invest, we'll only put more money in once it all blows over."
Seriously? | |
| We got Bogdanovic, Oyston got very rich |
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| Fans Parliament on 17:24 - May 26 with 2428 views | BiggieSeasider |
BHOK - it's the dog analogy again. If the dog keeps getting kicked, doe it accept it because it feels powerless?
It's the long game. Do we really want to accept that all we will ever be is a second to third division club? Because that's all we'll ever be with the Oystons. You say the Oystons think "we'll only put more money in once it all blows over". When have they ever put money in? We owe our success to Belokon.
The club has a sale price, whether they admit it or not. They can claim all they want that they will never sell, but when their stewardship of the club alienates so many people that their other business interests are hit, they aren't stupid. They will sell. It's a war of attrition. It might take years to happen, but it's surely in the best long term interests of the club?
Kick the dog hard enough, and it's been kicked pretty hard, and it will bite back. | |
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| Fans Parliament on 20:49 - May 26 with 2417 views | BigHandsOliverKahn |
If they've held onto it for nearly 30 years and been through similar rough times before (marches to their house, people on the pitch... last time with a coffin), but didn't sell then... and that was with a derelict ground and debts, what makes you think they would sell now with a completed stadium, revenues from facilities built into it and £30 Million tucked away? I am not so confident they ever will sell it. | | | |
| Fans Parliament on 23:16 - May 26 with 2391 views | terminallytangerine |
I think I've made my views clear and so to post much more will just be going round in circles.
I do genuinely appreciate the counter-arguments that have been put on this thread but can't believe that whether the Oystons stay or go - and going would suit us all so we could have a fresh start - we have to accept that a return to supporting the football team has to wait until the owners have sold. If we want to avoid another relegation we have to play our part in the stadium to support the team rather than to see any manager as by definition an Oyston puppet or any players an Oyston 11. Whether people like it or not they are our football manager and team at this moment in time (or will be we hope before the season starts) and to get out of the division we have to support them and put football first. To do otherwise is to accept league 2 as inevitable (and yes of course it also requires a commitment by the owners.)
[I'm obviously getting more popular. Only -1 this time!]
Just to take a couple of points from SATW's response (and I realise I'm banging my head against a brick one):
I won't address the BSA bit as it always sounds like that Roman sketch in the Life of Brian and my views have nothing to do with BSA anyway, but I do think there is a link between protest and performance and therefore a need to address supporters concerns directly to the owners.
As I suggested above who wants to commit themselves to playing football in a war zone? If we do persuade a manager to join us how much more difficult is their job if they are managing in front of a protest rally? Is a pitch invasion really helpful if it leads to points deduction? So if 'protests' include the pitch invasion, which was not condoned before it happened by the largest supporters organisation if I remember rightly, then protests may well have a direct impact on what happens in our fight to avoid another relegation next season (though NAPM will argue that this would be a justifiable sacrifice for other supporters to make if it leads to regime change.) There are many who do not believe that Huddersfield was our finest hour and that number may grow if points are deducted, or if it becomes the norm. That is not because they want to defend the owners or are unaware as to where the ultimate responsibility lies, but because they actually want to watch football next season whether or not the club is eventually bought by someone else or remains in the current owners' hands.
Yes decline was in evidence before Mr Ince moved on but arguably that has been accelerated by the creation of a war zone at BR and by the hardening of attitudes by the Os. Again that may be a minority view but we will only ever know the full picture in hindsight and in the future, when it may be too late to effect any change and when any efforts to stop that decline may come too late. I don't think that the human shield argument is a good one either: people will make their own minds up about the owners whether or not they talk to supporters, and the owners will be judged on whether they deliver after they have engaged in dialogue (if any takes place).
The question still remains as to what happens to our football club if the Oystons don't sell and the war continues. Do we or do we not explore every avenue to effect change?
But we are going round in circles so let us agree to disagree on this one and revisit it at a later date. [Post edited 27 May 2015 18:49]
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