| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left 09:16 - Feb 4 with 8839 views | RangersDave |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51366123
Ok, so i havnt really got many objections to this, apart from....
1) no range. if i cannot drive from scouse town to strasburg on 1 charge of electricery rather than on a tank of gas stopping only for a loo break and the tunnel then i'm out.
2) charging points.... not enough, and should all have a single compatible plug
3) costs of buying them, and the battery if replacements are needed
4) charging speed. i dont want to have to sit there for anything more than 15 minutes when i have a long journey to complete waiting for the car to charge.
Plus i want to be able to use the radio, air conditioning, lights etc and not have to keep looking at the battery level while doing a trip to London, for instance.
They need to cancel HS2, and put 'upgradable' charging point infrastructure in place now. |  |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 11:58 - Feb 4 with 1406 views | WestbourneR |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 11:26 - Feb 4 by CroydonCaptJack |
Interesting thread and good to see Dave not bite to being needlessly called a cretin.
I think we are finally seeing that this is going to be taken seriously and scaled up now. Virtually all the research and development costs of the major car manufacturers are looking at alternatives to the traditional ones which is great. What a different world it is going to be to not have to rely on the price of oil. I wonder how that will pan out in the Middle East. No wonder there are so many Middle Eastern investors in property etc now. That accumulated wealth is going to have to work a lot harder in the future when their traditional income from oil dries up.
Will the reliance on oil be replaced by problems with Electricity supply though? We have already witnessed the reluctance to invest in power stations. Will renewables be able to fill the gap? It will be fascinating to watch it all unravel but it should all be very positive for the environment and the World Economy potentially. |
Not needless. It's the kind of cretinous reasoning around 'an extra 15 minutes to charge' that will hold us back from doing what we need to do.
Do you think it's sensible? I'm just calling it what it is. |  |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 11:59 - Feb 4 with 1403 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 11:35 - Feb 4 by MrSheen |
Unless you can put a charging point in at each end, that probably rules out battery-only. Vauxhall (I think) are advertising a 230 mile range model, but rechargeable car batteries eventually go the same way as your phone and hold less charge. What subsidy do you get for hybrids there now?
The when-to-buy debate about battery cars is like the one my parents had about colour TV in the 70s. Price is falling and quality rising so steadily that waiting seems the right option. I thought about a new hybrid this time, but settled for a small second hand petrol car in the interim. [Post edited 4 Feb 2020 11:41]
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That's what I feared, Sheener.
Not sure about the subsidy. Think it might be immaterial. |  |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:00 - Feb 4 with 1401 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 11:52 - Feb 4 by bob566 |
we're not ready for it in Ireland. A friend of the missus took 8 hours to get from Dublin to Limerick. No charge points. A couple here and there. According to ESB we have 1100 for the whole island. No way is Ireland ready. |
Wow, that's not good.
I must look into it more, but signs are not good so far. | |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:05 - Feb 4 with 1378 views | CroydonCaptJack |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 11:58 - Feb 4 by WestbourneR |
Not needless. It's the kind of cretinous reasoning around 'an extra 15 minutes to charge' that will hold us back from doing what we need to do.
Do you think it's sensible? I'm just calling it what it is. |
It is needless. This is a decent thread and people are entitled to air their views without being called a cretin. |  | | |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:11 - Feb 4 with 1363 views | WestbourneR |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:05 - Feb 4 by CroydonCaptJack |
It is needless. This is a decent thread and people are entitled to air their views without being called a cretin. |
Right. So I could say the world is flat not round and I still wouldn't be a cretin?
I'm just wondering at want point is this world we can return to accepting facts as facts? | |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:13 - Feb 4 with 1357 views | CroydonCaptJack |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:11 - Feb 4 by WestbourneR |
Right. So I could say the world is flat not round and I still wouldn't be a cretin?
I'm just wondering at want point is this world we can return to accepting facts as facts? |
You would be a cretin but I personally wouldn't call you one on here. | | | |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:22 - Feb 4 with 1315 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Hey! Some of my best friends are cretins! | |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:23 - Feb 4 with 1308 views | Benny_the_Ball |
There's 2 topics being discussed here in 1 thread - cars and the environment, so I will address each separately in reverse order.
With respect to the environment, there is a clear issue with climate change that needs to be addressed asap. I don't think any sane individual is denying that. However, combustion engine cars are only part of the problem. One of the first studies I read on the subject was commissioned by Greenpeace. It placed industry and housing above motor cars as the major polluters. It called on the UK government to reduce industry pollution and to introduce a nationwide programme of loft insulation to reduce the amount of heat being lost into the atmosphere through rooftops. Roll forward a few years yet the emphasis remains squarely on motor cars. Addressing climate change requires a global effort and an appetite to combat all forms of pollution.
The evidence still shows that a significant amount of electricity is being generated by burning fossil fuels. Until we eliminate this, I remain sceptical of the EV's green credentials. Worldwide adoption of EVs will push electricity usage through the roof so cleaner generation and better infrastructure will be key.
As for EV's themselves, they are improving but there are some clear drawbacks that need to be resolved to encourage wider adoption.
1) Range is increasing with the latest generation of EVs capable of 100-200 real world miles on a full charge, depending on whether you're driving in summer or winter. However, manufacturers are guilty of publishing misleading figures on range in the same way they publish unrealistic mpg figures. Governments really ought to stop this practice and set the parameters by which all manufacturers test.
2) EV batteries lose capacity over time and are expensive to replace. This makes them an unviable proposition as a second hand purchase. To mitigate the risk you either have to purchase an additional warranty or sign up to a battery leasing scheme. IMHO manufacturers should be forced to offer a minimum of a 7 year warranty on EVs.
3) Not only is the infrastructure insufficient but it's too complicated. Already there are 5 or 6 main providers, each offering different levels of charging at wildly different prices. The average user has to install a number of apps on his/her phone to take advantage of the full grid. When you've figured that out, it takes far too long to re-charge. Compare that to the ease with which you can find a petrol station and fill a fuel tank and the frustration is clear.
4) When we talk of infrastructure most people think of the outside charging network. What about homes? Not all of us live in houses with garages or driveways. To make a palpable difference to the environment, adoption in cities is key but I can't see how someone living in a 3rd floor flat is going to charge their car overnight. Moreover, charging via a 3-pin plug takes days, not hours. Faster charging at home requires the installation of a charging unit which is not only costly but can't be ported to a new home.
5) The price of new EVs is exorbitant, even with a government grant. Granted the price of new technology tends to come down as adoption increases but you can't compare paying £1000 for the one the first LCD TV screens to £30k+ for a Nissan Leaf.
6) Once adoption increases, expect the government to terminate the grant scheme and re-focus its attention on how to recover revenue from the loss of fuel duty.
It should be said that the above assumes that the public will continue to consume vehicles by private ownership. More creative solutions such as pool cars, car sharing, etc. may be required to make a success of EVs, particularly as driverless technology gathers pace. |  | | |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:25 - Feb 4 with 1297 views | kensalriser |
I think it's almost certain the date will be brought forward again, possibly to 2030. It might be moot anyway as vehicle manufacturers will want to get out of a declining market as early as possible.
But how old are you? ICE won't be banned at that date, they just won't be available new. So if you buy a new car in 2030 you probably have another 20 years from today of driving an ICE vehicle if you want to. |  |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:31 - Feb 4 with 1284 views | Mick_S |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:22 - Feb 4 by BrianMcCarthy |
Hey! Some of my best friends are cretins! |
Brian and his friends.
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| Did I ever mention that I was in Minder? |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:34 - Feb 4 with 1267 views | stevec |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 11:54 - Feb 4 by WestbourneR |
That's a extremely productive attitude. Enlightened and logical. 'It's a terrible disaster so let's do nothing'. Great.
I thought you said just it's wise for people to question this stuff... which an equally vacuous thing to say - especially as you're saying you do accept it yourself... or don't you?
The recommendation to switch to diesel is no comparison at all as that was advised because diesel releases less greenhouse gases - it however does release more pollutants that are harmful to breathe. Two totally different issues and not one that invalidates the science in any way at all.
You can say 'question this stuff' but it's equally important to actually listen to the answers.
I notice nobody is saying 'question whether smoking causes cancer' but when it comes to rock solid climate science suddenly every scepetic is is a expert.
The only possible reason to oppose this stuff is because you're too selfish and narrow minded to change. End of. [Post edited 4 Feb 2020 12:00]
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I'm more than happy to change to an Electric car but am holding back for the multitude of reasons other posters have already mentioned.
Unless you're in possession of a bottomless pit of money then any sensible person would do the same. We're not aware yet of the likely lifespan of electric cars. At present you expect a 21st Century petrol/diesel to last anywhere between 15 and 20 years. It's my understanding, largely due to the battery life (or lack of) in electric cars, that lifespan is roughly halved.
So taking Baz's example a 25 grand electric version Ford fiesta, would write off the 25k in 10 years. A comparable petrol version, costing around £20k would write off over a lifespan of 20 years which means the cost of an electric car would make you £1500 a year worse off than it's petrol version.
You may be in a unique position, whereby £1500 extra out of your pocket every year is a mere blip, but that's not the case for the majority of people.
Admittedly, you would make savings on electric versus petrol at the power points, but that is now. I guarantee that once the conversion rate to electric becomes mainstream you will find the price of 'filling' the car at electric power points will go through the roof to make up for the lost oil revenue.
Environmentalism sounds good and in many ways I'm all for it, but green initiatives, always well meaning I accept that, are often carried out in haste, encouraged too keenly without thought, and can result in unnecessarily huge errors such as the promotion of diesel fuels and cladding on buildings. |  | | |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:36 - Feb 4 with 1264 views | HantsR |
Due to a little incident, Mrs Hants' car is an economic writeoff. I thought about an electric car as a replacement and her 3000 miles per year on short journeys ( much of which is Good Neighbours volunteer driving) would appear to be well suited. However, I simply couldn't justify or even afford the cost at current prices and had to settle for a 1.0 Ecoboost with £0 vehicle tax.
The current purchase costs, range, charging facilities are prohibitive for me and my car at present, I did 20,000 miles last year. I was encouraged to buy my current diesel by a very low car tax incentive. Also, genuine concerns about the impact on increasingly rare metals for batteries and the supply chain for electricity, make the decision to switch to electric not so clear-cut at present, much as I would be happy to do so.
2035? hmmm I'll probably be in an electric wheelchair anyway or?  |  | | |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:51 - Feb 4 with 1229 views | The_Beast1976 |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 11:26 - Feb 4 by CroydonCaptJack |
Interesting thread and good to see Dave not bite to being needlessly called a cretin.
I think we are finally seeing that this is going to be taken seriously and scaled up now. Virtually all the research and development costs of the major car manufacturers are looking at alternatives to the traditional ones which is great. What a different world it is going to be to not have to rely on the price of oil. I wonder how that will pan out in the Middle East. No wonder there are so many Middle Eastern investors in property etc now. That accumulated wealth is going to have to work a lot harder in the future when their traditional income from oil dries up.
Will the reliance on oil be replaced by problems with Electricity supply though? We have already witnessed the reluctance to invest in power stations. Will renewables be able to fill the gap? It will be fascinating to watch it all unravel but it should all be very positive for the environment and the World Economy potentially. |
Without oil those very rich people in the Middle east would still be living in mud huts in the desert and riding around on camels. The smart ones are now buying up property all over the globe in preparation for the inevitable end of oil |  | | |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:52 - Feb 4 with 1229 views | BlackCrowe |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 11:58 - Feb 4 by WestbourneR |
Not needless. It's the kind of cretinous reasoning around 'an extra 15 minutes to charge' that will hold us back from doing what we need to do.
Do you think it's sensible? I'm just calling it what it is. |
You've got a different pov, that's fine and i kind of agree with it too. But being abusive to someone because you don't agree with them isn't great. |  |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:57 - Feb 4 with 1210 views | connell10 |
Solid state battery. |  |
| AND WHEN I DREAM , I DREAM ABOUT YOU AND WHEN I SCREAM I SCREAM ABOUT YOU!!!!! | | Poll: | best number 10 ever? |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 13:06 - Feb 4 with 1182 views | CaptainPugwash |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 10:54 - Feb 4 by MelakaRanger |
Spot on
I’ve been driving an EV for 4 years now. We are no tree huggers but are thinking of the world we are leaving our children and grandchildren
Yes they are more expensive to buy but not necessarily so if you lease them. And they are dead cheap to run.
Currently (no pun) I pay just 5p per kw to charge my car. My annual mileage of approx 8000 miles costs me £100 in fuel. £100 for 8000 miles.
Many EV owners also have solar panels so their annual motoring fuel bill is literally peanuts.
To many people spout absolute bullocks when trying to put down EVs |
Arrrrrr...
What about terday's chillun?
Out of sight an' out o' mind eh?Just as long as youse nice 'n comfortabul.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/01/Child-labour-behind-smart-phone-a [Post edited 4 Feb 2020 13:08]
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 13:11 - Feb 4 with 1170 views | PunteR |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 11:10 - Feb 4 by MrSheen |
Battery technology needs another jump ahead to improve durability, range and safety, and take out rare and dubious ingredients like cobalt. It should happen, but you can’t be sure when. Should it happen, older battery vehicles will have the value and appeal of an Austin Allegro.
Just replaced my old diesel Honda with a midget Skoda Citigo. £7,000, two years old. 70 mpg, and so ugly you wouldn’t want to drive it anyway. One way of going green. [Post edited 4 Feb 2020 11:14]
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Yeh Colbalt mining is a problem getting worse it seems |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 13:20 - Feb 4 with 1137 views | Juzzie |
What about hydrogen fuelled electric cars? Takes 5 mins to fill up and emits water. None of this hours-to-charge malarky.
Downsides: Only a handful of filling stations (one just a couple of miles from me and Hyundai dealer close by too) and expensive to buy, Hyundai ix35 an eye watering £53k for what is a standard car, but as with everything prices could/should come down by 2035 one would hope.
[Post edited 4 Feb 2020 13:20]
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 13:37 - Feb 4 with 1098 views | enfieldargh |
I doubt an electric car will be anything like we have now by then.
Electrical charging points could be like a plate you drive over which boosts you power level/
They will know how to charge you from your vehicle ID or the microchip that's been embedded into you at birth or from your mobile device which can also wipe your botty
Alternatively how about a giant scaletrix track |  |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 13:44 - Feb 4 with 1082 views | supahoopsa |
I think Juzzie is right, long term the future has to be Hydrogen cars.
There was this article on the BBC recently about the damage being done mining for Lithium - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49355817
Also what happens to the batteries when they are no longer viable? Can they simply be rebuilt/recycled? If not how do you go about disposing 1,000's of dangerous batteries in 10, 20+ years time? |  |
| Blue & White hooped blood runs through the family |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 13:59 - Feb 4 with 1049 views | Mick_S |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:13 - Feb 4 by CroydonCaptJack |
You would be a cretin but I personally wouldn't call you one on here. |
Pete, down arrow in error. You may call me the c word. | |
| Did I ever mention that I was in Minder? |
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| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:01 - Feb 4 with 1040 views | Spaghetti_Hoops |
Interesting.
The consequences of climate change and gross overconsumption and pollution are going to change all our lives fundamently over the next 25 years onwards. Yet people are still making relatively trivial complaints about policies and problems with electric cars etc as they exist now.
I wouldn't buy an electric car now, but I doubt it will be many years before it is the only responsible choice. | | | |
| 15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:06 - Feb 4 with 1029 views | WestbourneR |
You're all making my childish name calling significantly less enjoyable. | |
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