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15 more years of 'normal' cars left 09:16 - Feb 4 with 8650 viewsRangersDave

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51366123

Ok, so i havnt really got many objections to this, apart from....

1) no range. if i cannot drive from scouse town to strasburg on 1 charge of electricery rather than on a tank of gas stopping only for a loo break and the tunnel then i'm out.

2) charging points.... not enough, and should all have a single compatible plug

3) costs of buying them, and the battery if replacements are needed

4) charging speed. i dont want to have to sit there for anything more than 15 minutes when i have a long journey to complete waiting for the car to charge.

Plus i want to be able to use the radio, air conditioning, lights etc and not have to keep looking at the battery level while doing a trip to London, for instance.

They need to cancel HS2, and put 'upgradable' charging point infrastructure in place now.

WWW.northernphotography.com
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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 09:46 - Feb 5 with 1626 viewsqueensparker

15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 11:59 - Feb 4 by BrianMcCarthy

That's what I feared, Sheener.

Not sure about the subsidy. Think it might be immaterial.


Brian think it’s definitely doable with that drive with the right car.

Can you charge easily at home? Drive/garage etc? If so the Hyundai Kona and Kia Niro have a genuine range of 250 miles (I’ve tested it) and it’s a proper car, will last you years, great warranty.

Another one to consider is a BMW i3 range-extender - it’s got a tiny petrol engine on board that basically acts as a generator to the battery if you run out of range to get you home. They’re not massive inside and you can’t buy them new anymore but not difficult to find a decent used one.

The v v pricey options (Jag I pace, Tesla) will also do 200+ miles no problem but only if you’ve got a spare 80 grand or so lying around...

I’m in the business and one thing that you notice - not one person that drives an EV would ever consider getting anything else again - they’re brilliant
[Post edited 5 Feb 2020 9:47]
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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 10:07 - Feb 5 with 1590 viewsCroydonCaptJack

15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 09:46 - Feb 5 by queensparker

Brian think it’s definitely doable with that drive with the right car.

Can you charge easily at home? Drive/garage etc? If so the Hyundai Kona and Kia Niro have a genuine range of 250 miles (I’ve tested it) and it’s a proper car, will last you years, great warranty.

Another one to consider is a BMW i3 range-extender - it’s got a tiny petrol engine on board that basically acts as a generator to the battery if you run out of range to get you home. They’re not massive inside and you can’t buy them new anymore but not difficult to find a decent used one.

The v v pricey options (Jag I pace, Tesla) will also do 200+ miles no problem but only if you’ve got a spare 80 grand or so lying around...

I’m in the business and one thing that you notice - not one person that drives an EV would ever consider getting anything else again - they’re brilliant
[Post edited 5 Feb 2020 9:47]


A Tesla 3 is about half of that and I believe it has that range.
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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:01 - Feb 5 with 1534 viewsRangersDave

Here's a nerdy bit of info for you guys and gals....

We all agree that something needs to be done, and i am a great advocator of the big diesels being neutered in some way. How many times have you seen a big truck, coach or van spewing out black smoke? maybe nit every minute of every day but i bet youve seen it.

Why not monitor for these vehicles and pull them from the streets? They either get repaired and pass a test, or they get scrapped.

And also, how about taking these vehicles off the road? Well mostly off the road, that is.
All this brew haha about HS2 really doesnt help fix the problem of congestion and pollution, so why not? and heres serious thinking...... re open the old Great Central Railway to freight?
this would leave the west coast mainline for passengers and decrease many end to end journey times.
Most of the trackbed is in situ still, the loading gauge was build from the start to take European stuff, and you could easily put trucks on trains to keep them from the motorways.

You could then, if you really wanted, straighten the west coast mainline to increase line speeds accordingly (thats why trains tilt , as it can increase speeds round curves without having to straighten the lines).

No way any of this would cost xxx billion to do, and in the meantime i'd also charge europeans wanting to use our road system a carnet / toll to do so, after all...italy, slovenia, switzerland, france and others all charge, so why dont we?
This would help subsidise the trucks on trains idea to an extent.

I would also have the german system of trucks only in the inside lane during daylight hours and not on the motorways at weekends unless its livestock or perishable, but they can go on the train from 1 end of the country to the other. (well the east / west corridor that is).

Just a few thoughts on greening up the environment for everyone.

WWW.northernphotography.com
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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 13:55 - Feb 5 with 1480 viewsR_from_afar

15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 18:57 - Feb 4 by itsbiga

I have a full leccy car here in Los Angeles as its really vital a big city like this to reduce emissions.
The human cost of cobalt mining required for the batteries is horrible tho.

https://www.ft.com/content/c6909812-9ce4-11e9-9c06-a4640c9feebb
[Post edited 4 Feb 2020 18:59]


"The human cost of cobalt mining required for the batteries is horrible tho".~

I totally agree and hope that some of the moves to source it (and other minerals) ethically work out.

Bear in mind though that your laptop and smartphone also contain cobalt and other materials from dubious sources (unless you have a Fairfone).

Cobalt is also used in the blades of aircraft engines, dyes and paints, prosthetic limbs too.

"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."

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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:02 - Feb 5 with 1471 viewsR_from_afar

15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 09:46 - Feb 5 by queensparker

Brian think it’s definitely doable with that drive with the right car.

Can you charge easily at home? Drive/garage etc? If so the Hyundai Kona and Kia Niro have a genuine range of 250 miles (I’ve tested it) and it’s a proper car, will last you years, great warranty.

Another one to consider is a BMW i3 range-extender - it’s got a tiny petrol engine on board that basically acts as a generator to the battery if you run out of range to get you home. They’re not massive inside and you can’t buy them new anymore but not difficult to find a decent used one.

The v v pricey options (Jag I pace, Tesla) will also do 200+ miles no problem but only if you’ve got a spare 80 grand or so lying around...

I’m in the business and one thing that you notice - not one person that drives an EV would ever consider getting anything else again - they’re brilliant
[Post edited 5 Feb 2020 9:47]


Good points sir. I have a first generation BMW i3 range-extender, actually, and have done over 31,000 miles in it. The electric range of later versions of my car is way more than the 80 or so miles I get (plus another 80 via the generator).

"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."

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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:08 - Feb 5 with 1462 viewsBenny_the_Ball

15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:13 - Feb 4 by R_from_afar

I have had an electric vehicle for four and a half years and done 32k miles in it. I am also an eco warrier, as some of you may just have noticed

So here goes, with some comments about the post below and other stuff. Your point about the need for us to “green” many more things than transport is spot on, as is your point about insulation. Insulation is not glamorous for a politician but a major programme for homes and commercial buildings would make a huge difference.

Point 1 below: WhatCar's real world tests are now showing that you can actually get 200 miles from the latest EVs, and that includes mass market models.

Point 2: Tesla's long range tests disprove this. They do not lose much of their capacity. Most EVs come with a 10 year battery warranty, which is just as well because EV batteries cannot be replaced (based on currently available models). EV batteries can be reused after the cars have been scrapped, for standalone electricity storage.

Point 3: True, there are currently quite a few charging network operators. A colleague has an EV and went on holiday all over northern Europe in it. He took a small handful of charging network cards and had no issues. Also, fuel station companies e.g. BP are starting to put charging points on forecourts. I downloaded the PodPoint app in about two minutes and it is a piece of cake to use. Find a charging point - the app tells you where it is and if it's occupied and whether you have to pay - plug in, confirm that you are plugged in via the app and you are done, the juice starts to flow Simples.

Point 4: Yes, living in flats etc is an issue but it is possible to get councils to install on street units where there is demand. Charging from a 3 pin plug is quite slow but unless you have the 1000km range Tesla Roadster, it won't take more than a day (but it might take 10 hours or so). Many car manufacturers will install a charging unit for free. The government used to subsidise home installations too but I am not sure if they still do. You can't easily take your home charging point with you if you move, you are correct.

Point 5: Still true in most cases but there is a lot of competition in the sub £30k mass market and the newly announced VW e-UP comes in at under £20k, after the government grant. The Zoe looks like a great deal - cheap as EVs go, 200 mile+ range...

Point 6: Spot on. But.... all governments are likely to look to make the user of greener vehicles cheaper than liquid fuelled ones.

Other stuff:
- Don't assume that petrol and diesel will continue to be freely available and affordable. The new sources of oil (like fracking and tar sands) only make up 7% of the world's supply, meaning that we are still reliant on traditional fields, plus there will not be any more big finds. Oil is finite, people!

- There are some interesting pledges from Boris on EVs and charging infrastructure, here: https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/electric-charging-stations-uk-find-neares

- Grid electricity generally has a lower CO2 impact than any petrol or diesel car. Exceptions would be in areas/countries where grid electricity is predominantly from coal.

- The world can meet all its electricity needs from renewables. The sums have been done, for example, by Stanford University. Costa Rica managed to go a month without using anything other than renewables to power its grid. It can be done.

- As for dubious materials, we need to be even handed about that and not slam EVs for that but turn a blind eye if they are used in a mobile 'phone, vacuum cleaner or whatever. In addition, oil is increasingly coming from dubious sources. There are moves to get it from the arctic, tar sands have a devastating environmental impact, there was the Gulf of Mexico spill and umpteen others at sea...

- As far as providing back-up for renewables is concerned, there are solutions available now to cope with that. Tidal lagoons — were we ever to build one — can supply electricity 24/7. Solar electricity can be stored in giant batteries, in molten salt or used to pump water uphill so it can be used to drive turbines when the panels aren’t working, or it can be used to produce hydrogen, which can then be used to drive turbines. Wind patterns can be predicted 48 hours (I think it’s 48) in advance now so capacity planning is not so hard. In addition, nuclear plants need to go offline on average two days a week for refuelling and maintenance (or when they get blocked up with seaweed or jellyfish or when the water used to cool them is too warm (as happened last year)). That also creates a back-up headache. Windfarms may need wind to work but you never get situations where the whole farm breaks down; with a gas power plant — any big oil/gas/coal/nuclear plant in fact - one breakdown stops all the power. Providing back-up for distributed power sources like wind farms is much easier.

- Currently, there are still going to be a lot of people who can't get by with just an EV. I totally agree on that one, but the tide is turning.


32k in nearly 5 years is half the average mileage and therein lies the key; it all depends on the user's profile. At the moment EVs are a viable option for those with disposable income who mostly potter around town with the odd long journey thrown in. Commuters, minicab drivers, delivery drivers, airport transfers, etc. will cover that mileage in a year so the EV is currently impractical for their purposes.

Point 1: The key in your sentence is "latest EVs". Any mainstream models older than a year such are barely capable of 100 miles on a full charge and in winter this figure decreases significantly. However, the latest models show that the technology is moving in the right direction.

Point 2: Citing Tesla as a case in point is somewhat misleading as they are the Rolls of EVs. It's a bit like saying that Ferrari combustion engines are capable of 200mph therefore mainstream cars will follow suit. Mainstream EVs do lose capacity so I would encourage anyone thinking of buying a second hand model to request a health check and consider whether they would be more comfortable with a battery-owned or battery-leased EV.

Point 3: If today it's a handful of charging systems/cards/apps then in future it'll be umpteen cards and charging networks that offer VHS, Betamax, DVD and Blu-ray if not properly regulated. To buy petrol or diesel I don't need a single loyalty card or app; I simply pull into any petrol station, fill up and pay with my bank card. All within 5-10 minutes. Customers have been used to this experience for decades so the challenge is for EV to replicate the same service. This is where IMHO the government needs to step in to ensure that companies work together to deliver a homogenous system.

Point 4: I like the idea of charging points in streets but the reality is that at the moment they barely exist. Better infrastructure is needed for EVs to succeed but with councils strapped for cash who is going to pay for it? To get a full charge from a 3-pin plug takes far longer than 10 hours. It's the initial and final charge that takes longest so manufacturers advise owners to operate between a band of 20% to 80% charge. This goes back to my earlier point about EVs fitting a certain profile. Those using EVs for short journeys are unlikely to need a full charge therefore can live with slow charging. Given the restrictions of 3-pin charging and the exorbitant cost of EVs, manufacturers should provide portable home charging units with every new car. Owners should be expected to include these in any re-sale in order to achieve maximum return.

Point 5: Sorry but the average family can't live with superminis such as the VW e-UP or Renault Zoe. As for price, the new Zoe starts at £26k. This may seem affordable in EV terms but it's petrol equivalent, the Renault Clio, starts at £14k, almost half the cost. Sure, EVs are cheaper to run but studies have shown that it would take at least 10 years of ownership at 15,000 miles per year just to recover the difference.

In a nutshell, I'm with you in principle but more needs to be done than simply appealing to conscious to win the public's hearts and minds. Governments need to lay the foundations with better infrastructure now rather than wait for consumption to increase and play catch-up. For example, a lot of money is currently being poured into Smart motorways. Why not use the opportunity to lay the platform for EVs (such as charging points, regeneration grids, etc)? Energy companies have to work together to agree a simple, uniform charging network. Manufacturers have to commit to producing cars like the e-Niro and Kona at prices equivalent to the petrol/diesel equivalent, even if this initially hurts bottom line.
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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:20 - Feb 5 with 1453 viewsMrSheen

Good post, but on the last point, the EU is about to start hitting manufacturers with heavy fines for every g/KM of CO2 their average model produces over 95. In some cases, these fines will be multiples of current profit. They get extra offsets for selling electric cars, making them happy to sell these at a loss if it helps reduce fines on the rest of their fleet - and no car company, with the exception of Toyota, makes money on EVs and hybrids. However, they have wangled an exemption on the baseline weight of the models they make. It's extremely complicated, but it means they have an incentive to sell EVS and SUVs (because they are high-margin and because they are favoured by this weight adjustment) and not to sell smaller cheaper conventional cars, where the margins are lower and the fines will wipe these out.
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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 15:57 - Feb 5 with 1401 viewsHAYESBOY

15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 11:34 - Feb 4 by ted_hendrix

Don't laugh but I actually purchased a new battery operated lawn mower yesterday.


How does it handle on the Motorway?

Smells like a trout farm in here

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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 18:30 - Feb 5 with 1344 viewsR_from_afar

15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:08 - Feb 5 by Benny_the_Ball

32k in nearly 5 years is half the average mileage and therein lies the key; it all depends on the user's profile. At the moment EVs are a viable option for those with disposable income who mostly potter around town with the odd long journey thrown in. Commuters, minicab drivers, delivery drivers, airport transfers, etc. will cover that mileage in a year so the EV is currently impractical for their purposes.

Point 1: The key in your sentence is "latest EVs". Any mainstream models older than a year such are barely capable of 100 miles on a full charge and in winter this figure decreases significantly. However, the latest models show that the technology is moving in the right direction.

Point 2: Citing Tesla as a case in point is somewhat misleading as they are the Rolls of EVs. It's a bit like saying that Ferrari combustion engines are capable of 200mph therefore mainstream cars will follow suit. Mainstream EVs do lose capacity so I would encourage anyone thinking of buying a second hand model to request a health check and consider whether they would be more comfortable with a battery-owned or battery-leased EV.

Point 3: If today it's a handful of charging systems/cards/apps then in future it'll be umpteen cards and charging networks that offer VHS, Betamax, DVD and Blu-ray if not properly regulated. To buy petrol or diesel I don't need a single loyalty card or app; I simply pull into any petrol station, fill up and pay with my bank card. All within 5-10 minutes. Customers have been used to this experience for decades so the challenge is for EV to replicate the same service. This is where IMHO the government needs to step in to ensure that companies work together to deliver a homogenous system.

Point 4: I like the idea of charging points in streets but the reality is that at the moment they barely exist. Better infrastructure is needed for EVs to succeed but with councils strapped for cash who is going to pay for it? To get a full charge from a 3-pin plug takes far longer than 10 hours. It's the initial and final charge that takes longest so manufacturers advise owners to operate between a band of 20% to 80% charge. This goes back to my earlier point about EVs fitting a certain profile. Those using EVs for short journeys are unlikely to need a full charge therefore can live with slow charging. Given the restrictions of 3-pin charging and the exorbitant cost of EVs, manufacturers should provide portable home charging units with every new car. Owners should be expected to include these in any re-sale in order to achieve maximum return.

Point 5: Sorry but the average family can't live with superminis such as the VW e-UP or Renault Zoe. As for price, the new Zoe starts at £26k. This may seem affordable in EV terms but it's petrol equivalent, the Renault Clio, starts at £14k, almost half the cost. Sure, EVs are cheaper to run but studies have shown that it would take at least 10 years of ownership at 15,000 miles per year just to recover the difference.

In a nutshell, I'm with you in principle but more needs to be done than simply appealing to conscious to win the public's hearts and minds. Governments need to lay the foundations with better infrastructure now rather than wait for consumption to increase and play catch-up. For example, a lot of money is currently being poured into Smart motorways. Why not use the opportunity to lay the platform for EVs (such as charging points, regeneration grids, etc)? Energy companies have to work together to agree a simple, uniform charging network. Manufacturers have to commit to producing cars like the e-Niro and Kona at prices equivalent to the petrol/diesel equivalent, even if this initially hurts bottom line.


I agree with you on a lot of points, but did want to contest some of them (see the >> marks)...

32k in nearly 5 years is half the average mileage and therein lies the key; it all depends on the user's profile. At the moment EVs are a viable option for those with disposable income who mostly potter around town with the odd long journey thrown in. Commuters, minicab drivers, delivery drivers, airport transfers, etc. will cover that mileage in a year so the EV is currently impractical for their purposes.

Point 1: The key in your sentence is "latest EVs". Any mainstream models older than a year such are barely capable of 100 miles on a full charge and in winter this figure decreases significantly. However, the latest models show that the technology is moving in the right direction.
>> Just because I “only” did 32k does not mean that I couldn’t have done more! I just didn’t need to. Look, I admit that for many commercial drivers, EVs will not be a great choice at the moment, but for a lot of consumers, including commuters, they already are. My colleague commutes from Acton to Marlow in his EV. The average commute is, I believe about 30 miles (car manufacturers have quoted that figure).

Point 2: Citing Tesla as a case in point is somewhat misleading as they are the Rolls of EVs. It's a bit like saying that Ferrari combustion engines are capable of 200mph therefore mainstream cars will follow suit. Mainstream EVs do lose capacity so I would encourage anyone thinking of buying a second hand model to request a health check and consider whether they would be more comfortable with a battery-owned or battery-leased EV.
>> I don’t believe the technology used in the battery varies a great deal. Please tell me what your evidence is for claiming that “mainstream EVs do lose capacity”. The point about Tesla I made is based on a large volume of data, it is not anecdotal.

Point 3: If today it's a handful of charging systems/cards/apps then in future it'll be umpteen cards and charging networks that offer VHS, Betamax, DVD and Blu-ray if not properly regulated. To buy petrol or diesel I don't need a single loyalty card or app; I simply pull into any petrol station, fill up and pay with my bank card. All within 5-10 minutes. Customers have been used to this experience for decades so the challenge is for EV to replicate the same service. This is where IMHO the government needs to step in to ensure that companies work together to deliver a homogenous system.
>> There are only two types of connectors and now, the vast majority of vehicles have standardised on one of those two. I think there is likely to be consolidation of charging network operators, but I agree that it would be better if there was single system. I’d love to think that the government would step in here. My colleague doesn’t seem to have any issues using a handful of operators, he just keeps his cards on him.

Point 4: I like the idea of charging points in streets but the reality is that at the moment they barely exist. Better infrastructure is needed for EVs to succeed but with councils strapped for cash who is going to pay for it? To get a full charge from a 3-pin plug takes far longer than 10 hours. It's the initial and final charge that takes longest so manufacturers advise owners to operate between a band of 20% to 80% charge. This goes back to my earlier point about EVs fitting a certain profile. Those using EVs for short journeys are unlikely to need a full charge therefore can live with slow charging. Given the restrictions of 3-pin charging and the exorbitant cost of EVs, manufacturers should provide portable home charging units with every new car. Owners should be expected to include these in any re-sale in order to achieve maximum return.
>> I agree that there isn’t enough infrastructure and doing a quick check, I did underestimate the time for 3-pin charging *to full* for the latest models (so those which can do 200 miles); for the e-Corsa, it would be about 24 hours. That said, most people are not doing 200 miles a day. Re. portable charging units, my i3 came with a free 3-pin charging cable. Before you wade in, bear in mind that my i3 is a first generation model with a maximum electric range of 89 miles, meaning that it can be comfortably charged to full overnight using a 3-pin socket (as I have done several times at a friend’s house).

Point 5: Sorry but the average family can't live with superminis such as the VW e-UP or Renault Zoe. As for price, the new Zoe starts at £26k. This may seem affordable in EV terms but it's petrol equivalent, the Renault Clio, starts at £14k, almost half the cost. Sure, EVs are cheaper to run but studies have shown that it would take at least 10 years of ownership at 15,000 miles per year just to recover the difference.
>> OK, EVs do cost more to buy outright, fair point but: 1) Quite a few people lease cars now 2) Don’t assume that petrol and diesel fuels will remain as affordable as they are now. We are talking about finite resources here.

In a nutshell, I'm with you in principle but more needs to be done than simply appealing to conscious to win the public's hearts and minds. Governments need to lay the foundations with better infrastructure now rather than wait for consumption to increase and play catch-up. For example, a lot of money is currently being poured into Smart motorways. Why not use the opportunity to lay the platform for EVs (such as charging points, regeneration grids, etc)? Energy companies have to work together to agree a simple, uniform charging network. Manufacturers have to commit to producing cars like the e-Niro and Kona at prices equivalent to the petrol/diesel equivalent, even if this initially hurts bottom line.
>> I agree with you, governments need to get behind this, and not just for reasons of public health — the tens of thousands of premature deaths in the UK caused by vehicle fumes — and climate change but for a reason which is rarely mentioned: Risk.

It is extremely unwise for any country to rely on sources of fuel — whether they be oil, gas, coal, nuclear fuel, green energy — which come from overseas. Supply problems — due to deliberate acts by other countries or natural disasters, shortages — could cripple our economy. This has happened to the UK before, there is a precedent here. We are blessed with huge sources of wind and tidal energy, solar too. It won’t be cheap switching to renewables but once we have done it, there will not only be benefits to our health, the climate and for our bills, but we will also have future-proofed our electricity supply, a huge boon for both industry and consumers. The costs are high but all nations will need to make the change at some point. Nuclear energy is not the way to go because the cost of it only ever goes up (University of Greenwich research), there are obvious safety issues, we cannot build plants ourselves (we need overseas help) and we cannot build them quickly (e.g. the Hinckley C design has never been delivered, anywhere, and in every case, these plants take years to build). Oh, and there is also now an issue with cooling them; due to global warming, plant operators have started having problems with sea and river water being too warm to adequately cool plants, resulting in plants having to reduce — and in some cases, cease output, temporarily. Another issue related to this is that the waste water from nuclear plants is now sometimes too warm to be released back into the environment.

"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."

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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 16:13 - Feb 6 with 1210 viewsBenny_the_Ball

15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 18:30 - Feb 5 by R_from_afar

I agree with you on a lot of points, but did want to contest some of them (see the >> marks)...

32k in nearly 5 years is half the average mileage and therein lies the key; it all depends on the user's profile. At the moment EVs are a viable option for those with disposable income who mostly potter around town with the odd long journey thrown in. Commuters, minicab drivers, delivery drivers, airport transfers, etc. will cover that mileage in a year so the EV is currently impractical for their purposes.

Point 1: The key in your sentence is "latest EVs". Any mainstream models older than a year such are barely capable of 100 miles on a full charge and in winter this figure decreases significantly. However, the latest models show that the technology is moving in the right direction.
>> Just because I “only” did 32k does not mean that I couldn’t have done more! I just didn’t need to. Look, I admit that for many commercial drivers, EVs will not be a great choice at the moment, but for a lot of consumers, including commuters, they already are. My colleague commutes from Acton to Marlow in his EV. The average commute is, I believe about 30 miles (car manufacturers have quoted that figure).

Point 2: Citing Tesla as a case in point is somewhat misleading as they are the Rolls of EVs. It's a bit like saying that Ferrari combustion engines are capable of 200mph therefore mainstream cars will follow suit. Mainstream EVs do lose capacity so I would encourage anyone thinking of buying a second hand model to request a health check and consider whether they would be more comfortable with a battery-owned or battery-leased EV.
>> I don’t believe the technology used in the battery varies a great deal. Please tell me what your evidence is for claiming that “mainstream EVs do lose capacity”. The point about Tesla I made is based on a large volume of data, it is not anecdotal.

Point 3: If today it's a handful of charging systems/cards/apps then in future it'll be umpteen cards and charging networks that offer VHS, Betamax, DVD and Blu-ray if not properly regulated. To buy petrol or diesel I don't need a single loyalty card or app; I simply pull into any petrol station, fill up and pay with my bank card. All within 5-10 minutes. Customers have been used to this experience for decades so the challenge is for EV to replicate the same service. This is where IMHO the government needs to step in to ensure that companies work together to deliver a homogenous system.
>> There are only two types of connectors and now, the vast majority of vehicles have standardised on one of those two. I think there is likely to be consolidation of charging network operators, but I agree that it would be better if there was single system. I’d love to think that the government would step in here. My colleague doesn’t seem to have any issues using a handful of operators, he just keeps his cards on him.

Point 4: I like the idea of charging points in streets but the reality is that at the moment they barely exist. Better infrastructure is needed for EVs to succeed but with councils strapped for cash who is going to pay for it? To get a full charge from a 3-pin plug takes far longer than 10 hours. It's the initial and final charge that takes longest so manufacturers advise owners to operate between a band of 20% to 80% charge. This goes back to my earlier point about EVs fitting a certain profile. Those using EVs for short journeys are unlikely to need a full charge therefore can live with slow charging. Given the restrictions of 3-pin charging and the exorbitant cost of EVs, manufacturers should provide portable home charging units with every new car. Owners should be expected to include these in any re-sale in order to achieve maximum return.
>> I agree that there isn’t enough infrastructure and doing a quick check, I did underestimate the time for 3-pin charging *to full* for the latest models (so those which can do 200 miles); for the e-Corsa, it would be about 24 hours. That said, most people are not doing 200 miles a day. Re. portable charging units, my i3 came with a free 3-pin charging cable. Before you wade in, bear in mind that my i3 is a first generation model with a maximum electric range of 89 miles, meaning that it can be comfortably charged to full overnight using a 3-pin socket (as I have done several times at a friend’s house).

Point 5: Sorry but the average family can't live with superminis such as the VW e-UP or Renault Zoe. As for price, the new Zoe starts at £26k. This may seem affordable in EV terms but it's petrol equivalent, the Renault Clio, starts at £14k, almost half the cost. Sure, EVs are cheaper to run but studies have shown that it would take at least 10 years of ownership at 15,000 miles per year just to recover the difference.
>> OK, EVs do cost more to buy outright, fair point but: 1) Quite a few people lease cars now 2) Don’t assume that petrol and diesel fuels will remain as affordable as they are now. We are talking about finite resources here.

In a nutshell, I'm with you in principle but more needs to be done than simply appealing to conscious to win the public's hearts and minds. Governments need to lay the foundations with better infrastructure now rather than wait for consumption to increase and play catch-up. For example, a lot of money is currently being poured into Smart motorways. Why not use the opportunity to lay the platform for EVs (such as charging points, regeneration grids, etc)? Energy companies have to work together to agree a simple, uniform charging network. Manufacturers have to commit to producing cars like the e-Niro and Kona at prices equivalent to the petrol/diesel equivalent, even if this initially hurts bottom line.
>> I agree with you, governments need to get behind this, and not just for reasons of public health — the tens of thousands of premature deaths in the UK caused by vehicle fumes — and climate change but for a reason which is rarely mentioned: Risk.

It is extremely unwise for any country to rely on sources of fuel — whether they be oil, gas, coal, nuclear fuel, green energy — which come from overseas. Supply problems — due to deliberate acts by other countries or natural disasters, shortages — could cripple our economy. This has happened to the UK before, there is a precedent here. We are blessed with huge sources of wind and tidal energy, solar too. It won’t be cheap switching to renewables but once we have done it, there will not only be benefits to our health, the climate and for our bills, but we will also have future-proofed our electricity supply, a huge boon for both industry and consumers. The costs are high but all nations will need to make the change at some point. Nuclear energy is not the way to go because the cost of it only ever goes up (University of Greenwich research), there are obvious safety issues, we cannot build plants ourselves (we need overseas help) and we cannot build them quickly (e.g. the Hinckley C design has never been delivered, anywhere, and in every case, these plants take years to build). Oh, and there is also now an issue with cooling them; due to global warming, plant operators have started having problems with sea and river water being too warm to adequately cool plants, resulting in plants having to reduce — and in some cases, cease output, temporarily. Another issue related to this is that the waste water from nuclear plants is now sometimes too warm to be released back into the environment.


Please be assured that I am not "wading in", this is an adult conversation where your opinions are welcome and, indeed, helpful. As you can probably tell I've experimented with EVs because I'm interested in acquiring one but I need to be assured of everyone's long-term commitment before I part with the thick end of £30k. I'm confident that the technology is moving in the right direction so the onus now is on government, manufacturers and networks to create the right conditions for positive ownership as and when technicalities such as range, capacity and practicality cease to be an issue. Until then I will give an honest appraisal, warts-and-all. I agree that the future could see more leasing but you still need the right foundations in place to get a positive use experience.
[Post edited 6 Feb 2020 16:24]
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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 16:19 - Feb 6 with 1204 viewsBenny_the_Ball

15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:20 - Feb 5 by MrSheen

Good post, but on the last point, the EU is about to start hitting manufacturers with heavy fines for every g/KM of CO2 their average model produces over 95. In some cases, these fines will be multiples of current profit. They get extra offsets for selling electric cars, making them happy to sell these at a loss if it helps reduce fines on the rest of their fleet - and no car company, with the exception of Toyota, makes money on EVs and hybrids. However, they have wangled an exemption on the baseline weight of the models they make. It's extremely complicated, but it means they have an incentive to sell EVS and SUVs (because they are high-margin and because they are favoured by this weight adjustment) and not to sell smaller cheaper conventional cars, where the margins are lower and the fines will wipe these out.


If the manufacturers are receiving offsets for selling EVs then either EVs are very expensive to produce or manufacturers are not passing these savings on to customers.
[Post edited 6 Feb 2020 16:20]
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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 13:27 - Feb 12 with 1082 views2Thomas2Bowles

Now saying they could start the ban in 12 years.

That's the S/H car market fecked.


Vintage and classic cars too if they stop the sale of petrol.
[Post edited 12 Feb 2020 13:29]

When willl this CV nightmare end
Poll: What will the result of the GE be

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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 13:50 - Feb 12 with 1042 viewskensalriser

15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 13:27 - Feb 12 by 2Thomas2Bowles

Now saying they could start the ban in 12 years.

That's the S/H car market fecked.


Vintage and classic cars too if they stop the sale of petrol.
[Post edited 12 Feb 2020 13:29]


Why? This only affects the sale of new vehicles. You'll still be able to drive existing vehicles.

Poll: QPR to finish 7th or Brentford to drop out of the top 6?

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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 13:53 - Feb 12 with 1035 viewsNorthernr

15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 13:50 - Feb 12 by kensalriser

Why? This only affects the sale of new vehicles. You'll still be able to drive existing vehicles.


Shut up you and start throwing things.
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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 14:22 - Feb 12 with 986 views2Thomas2Bowles

15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 13:53 - Feb 12 by Northernr

Shut up you and start throwing things.


If you do that, you'll have someone's eye out.

When willl this CV nightmare end
Poll: What will the result of the GE be

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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 15:34 - Feb 12 with 960 viewsCaptainPugwash

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....
Nobodies 'ere be talkin' about Waste Heat.Mass inter energy be makin' heat,bildup be more insidyus that CO2.Bitcoin lotsa o' energy an' all.
Hoist the mainsail!

Yo Ho!
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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 17:26 - Feb 12 with 924 viewsDiscodroids

God is great. Just 15 more years of 'er indoors bright Pink fortwo smart car on the drive.

"...The monkey is never dead, Dealer. The monkey never dies. When you kick him off, he just hides in a corner, waiting his turn."

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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 20:47 - Feb 12 with 867 viewsbullythebear

There’s a lot of myths and confusion around electric cars at the moment for sure. These guys will be worth following to get the answers ...Clive/fellow R’s I’m involved so excuse the plug but it’s a great start up and has been set up to address these very myths...

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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 09:44 - Feb 13 with 791 viewsCaptainPugwash

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...
Fer me landlubber jaunts I be orderin' a noo Thunberg Interceptor.
Runs compeetly on hot air an' BBC liecence fee.

Yo Ho!
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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 09:53 - Feb 13 with 774 viewsMick_S

15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 17:26 - Feb 12 by Discodroids

God is great. Just 15 more years of 'er indoors bright Pink fortwo smart car on the drive.


Here's what you could have won:



What are the poor loves going to do?

Did I ever mention that I was in Minder?

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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 10:38 - Feb 13 with 753 viewsNewhopphoops

15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 17:26 - Feb 12 by Discodroids

God is great. Just 15 more years of 'er indoors bright Pink fortwo smart car on the drive.


I saw a blancmange Bentley yesterday. Keep her off the euromillions.
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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 10:50 - Feb 13 with 746 viewsCroydonCaptJack

Has anyone mentioned the part that Hydrogen can play in all this. Id does seem overlooked but is a potential solution. The only by product from converting Hydrogen into electricity is water. That sounds pretty clean to me.
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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:00 - Feb 13 with 715 viewsHantsR

15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 09:53 - Feb 13 by Mick_S

Here's what you could have won:



What are the poor loves going to do?


Also, free syrup with every car.
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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:00 - Feb 13 with 715 viewsblacky200

15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 10:50 - Feb 13 by CroydonCaptJack

Has anyone mentioned the part that Hydrogen can play in all this. Id does seem overlooked but is a potential solution. The only by product from converting Hydrogen into electricity is water. That sounds pretty clean to me.


I thought the limitation with hydrogen is that it is expensive and difficult to store.
Just to add to the whole debate how about replacing but the majority of home heating systems that will have to change from gas boilers to something else. And why is no one actually talking about the real problem. Population. It doesn't matter how efficient we get with our use of resources they are finite.
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15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:02 - Feb 13 with 713 viewsMick_S

15 more years of 'normal' cars left on 12:00 - Feb 13 by HantsR

Also, free syrup with every car.


Window up.

Did I ever mention that I was in Minder?

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