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The Other Side of the Coin 09:33 - Dec 23 with 2298 viewsBerber

So this partial extract explains why the media and parts of the medical establishment fail their duty to the public. This is part of an article from the Daily Telegraph, reflecting medic on medic criticism (as opposed to political leaning) of prominent forecasting and publicity.

"The Covid modellers at Imperial College have begun to back down. About time too. Over the past few weeks, they have made extreme claims about the omicron variant that cannot be fully justified by fundamental science, let alone by clinical observation.

Academic etiquette restrains direct criticism, but immunologists say privately that Professor Neil Ferguson and his team breached a cardinal rule by inferring rates of hospitalisation, severe disease, and death from waning antibodies, and by extrapolating from infections that break through the first line of vaccine defence.

The rest are entitled to question whether they can legitimately do this. And we may certainly question whether they should be putting out terrifying claims of up to 5,000 deaths a day based on antibody counts.

“It is bad science and I think they’re being irresponsible. They have a duty to reflect the true risks but this is just headline grabbing,” said Dr Clive Dix, former chairman of the UK Vaccine Task Force."


Ferguson's (one of the first, "One rule for me, and another, lot harder one for you lot." brigade), work can be characterised by First to Market, Extreme Dire warnings, get the headlines.

Thank goodness the government have been far more cautious about clamping down this time around. It has been pretty obvious for a week of UK figures about Omicron (let alone the from S Africa and Denmark) that this variant is not as dangerous as Delta. I understand the need to "check see" regarding hospitalisations, but all the real world and medical evidence point towards a need for nothing more than be safe for yourself (distance and testing for me) and considerate towards others (masks and distance) from now on.

With 90% of those in CC being unvaccinated, the rest of us should be allowed to crack on with our lives, and apart from protecting those who cannot protect themselves, we shouldn't be constrained by perceived duty towards a reckless minority who neither need not want this social protection.
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The Other Side of the Coin on 09:45 - Dec 23 with 1750 viewsdirk_doone

The whole thing has become a political football and the Daily Telegraph has turned against Boris and now criticises nearly everything he does as it wants a more hard line right wing PM in the Trump mould. They would love it to be Rees-Mogg but he lacks Boris's charm so I can't see him appealing to the majority of voters.

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The Other Side of the Coin on 09:53 - Dec 23 with 1737 viewssaint68

This was from 2 weeks ago when ITV experts and show hosts got their figures in a muddle...is this your source for 90%

https://fullfact.org/health/dr-hilary-lorraine-kelly-90-percent/


I fully agree in regards to Neil Ferguson and his project fear nonsense though.

In better news Pfizer have announced that it will all end in 2024..now that's great news indeed.
[Post edited 23 Dec 2021 9:55]

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The Other Side of the Coin on 10:01 - Dec 23 with 1730 viewssaint68

The Other Side of the Coin on 09:45 - Dec 23 by dirk_doone

The whole thing has become a political football and the Daily Telegraph has turned against Boris and now criticises nearly everything he does as it wants a more hard line right wing PM in the Trump mould. They would love it to be Rees-Mogg but he lacks Boris's charm so I can't see him appealing to the majority of voters.


I'd say Sunak is more likely to be the next one to jump in to number 10

Keir Starmer isn't making any real impact on removing the tories from office in 4yrs time..Boris can get away with virtually anything as he's not being held to account by any of the opposition parties.

One party nation..how dangerous is that!

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The Other Side of the Coin on 10:54 - Dec 23 with 1694 viewsdirk_doone

The Other Side of the Coin on 10:01 - Dec 23 by saint68

I'd say Sunak is more likely to be the next one to jump in to number 10

Keir Starmer isn't making any real impact on removing the tories from office in 4yrs time..Boris can get away with virtually anything as he's not being held to account by any of the opposition parties.

One party nation..how dangerous is that!


Yes, Sunak looks the most likely to succeed and he is the bookies' hot favourite. William Hill have him as short as 13/8. He would be our first Sotonian PM:

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/next-prime-minister
[Post edited 23 Dec 2021 10:56]

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The Other Side of the Coin on 11:01 - Dec 23 with 1681 viewssaint901

I'm cautious over the whole modelling thing from any source. So far as I can see neither the "we're all going to die" nor the "it's all a conspiracy designed to allow the "elite" to control you" have been correct.

I do think that some modellers have loved to play to media by inflating numbers.

However add in a media that is determined to not only report the story but to make the story - preferably a negative one - and a Gov't that has been consistently behind the curve but saying they're not and we're left to make our own minds up.

I'm hoping that the news this morning that preliminary result show Omicron to be potentially less severe, turn out to be true. Will that make a difference? If Delta produces 100 infections and 5 hospitalisations (numbers for easy arithmetic and not based on any survey) but Omicron produces 500 infections and 5 hospitalisations then we gained nothing.

We'll only know the truth when it's all over.
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The Other Side of the Coin on 11:08 - Dec 23 with 1673 viewsdirk_doone

The Other Side of the Coin on 11:01 - Dec 23 by saint901

I'm cautious over the whole modelling thing from any source. So far as I can see neither the "we're all going to die" nor the "it's all a conspiracy designed to allow the "elite" to control you" have been correct.

I do think that some modellers have loved to play to media by inflating numbers.

However add in a media that is determined to not only report the story but to make the story - preferably a negative one - and a Gov't that has been consistently behind the curve but saying they're not and we're left to make our own minds up.

I'm hoping that the news this morning that preliminary result show Omicron to be potentially less severe, turn out to be true. Will that make a difference? If Delta produces 100 infections and 5 hospitalisations (numbers for easy arithmetic and not based on any survey) but Omicron produces 500 infections and 5 hospitalisations then we gained nothing.

We'll only know the truth when it's all over.


A virus that weakens over time as it mutates could be a very good thing as people had feared that the opposite might happens. Let's hope that we end up with something no more harmful than a common cold.

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The Other Side of the Coin on 11:16 - Dec 23 with 1663 viewsdwayne_dibley

The Other Side of the Coin on 11:08 - Dec 23 by dirk_doone

A virus that weakens over time as it mutates could be a very good thing as people had feared that the opposite might happens. Let's hope that we end up with something no more harmful than a common cold.


probably more like influenza effect

Well, I say let's get out there and tw@t it!

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The Other Side of the Coin on 13:37 - Dec 23 with 1593 viewsBerber

The Other Side of the Coin on 09:53 - Dec 23 by saint68

This was from 2 weeks ago when ITV experts and show hosts got their figures in a muddle...is this your source for 90%

https://fullfact.org/health/dr-hilary-lorraine-kelly-90-percent/


I fully agree in regards to Neil Ferguson and his project fear nonsense though.

In better news Pfizer have announced that it will all end in 2024..now that's great news indeed.
[Post edited 23 Dec 2021 9:55]


It was BBC a couple of days ago, but I should have been clearer, it was for London hospitals and for Omicron patients where one CC medic said he had not seen a single vaccinated person admitted with Omicron.
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The Other Side of the Coin on 13:38 - Dec 23 with 1592 viewsBerber

The Other Side of the Coin on 11:01 - Dec 23 by saint901

I'm cautious over the whole modelling thing from any source. So far as I can see neither the "we're all going to die" nor the "it's all a conspiracy designed to allow the "elite" to control you" have been correct.

I do think that some modellers have loved to play to media by inflating numbers.

However add in a media that is determined to not only report the story but to make the story - preferably a negative one - and a Gov't that has been consistently behind the curve but saying they're not and we're left to make our own minds up.

I'm hoping that the news this morning that preliminary result show Omicron to be potentially less severe, turn out to be true. Will that make a difference? If Delta produces 100 infections and 5 hospitalisations (numbers for easy arithmetic and not based on any survey) but Omicron produces 500 infections and 5 hospitalisations then we gained nothing.

We'll only know the truth when it's all over.


Just about sums it up for me.
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The Other Side of the Coin on 14:09 - Dec 23 with 1569 viewsSadoldgit

The Other Side of the Coin on 10:01 - Dec 23 by saint68

I'd say Sunak is more likely to be the next one to jump in to number 10

Keir Starmer isn't making any real impact on removing the tories from office in 4yrs time..Boris can get away with virtually anything as he's not being held to account by any of the opposition parties.

One party nation..how dangerous is that!


It seems to me that Starmer comes across as a far better PM figure than Johnson. He constantly rips him to shreds in the Commons and makes him look like the idiot he is. The problem is that the people who voted for him have only just started to cotton on what they voted for. The last by election hopefully showed that the tide is finally turning.
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The Other Side of the Coin on 14:29 - Dec 23 with 1531 viewsSaintsforeverj

It's dreadful when scientists keep making statements of fear that have a huge impact on people. So many people missing out on seeing loved ones, sat inside anxious when it was actually more dangerous when the delta variant was rampant a few months ago. They said in the summer that unlocking too early would be disastrous, it wasn't. It was actually helpful to increase immunity in the population. This time they said there would be 5000 deaths a day. Now we hear Omicron is much milder. Arn't they supposed to be experts? This new more transmissable mild variant is actually good news as it will take over from previously more dangerous variants. That is the common journey of a virus anyway, become less dangerous but more easily transmitted.

Wales and Scotland taking away people's liberties and risking collapse of people's businesses, mental health and the economy, when there are fewer deaths than the last few months, just shows how we shouldn't be listening to the scientists come what may. For all its faults, at least this government, held fire, rather than panicking into restrictions that weren't necessary.
[Post edited 23 Dec 2021 14:33]

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The Other Side of the Coin on 14:51 - Dec 23 with 1516 viewssaint68

The Other Side of the Coin on 14:09 - Dec 23 by Sadoldgit

It seems to me that Starmer comes across as a far better PM figure than Johnson. He constantly rips him to shreds in the Commons and makes him look like the idiot he is. The problem is that the people who voted for him have only just started to cotton on what they voted for. The last by election hopefully showed that the tide is finally turning.


Starmer comes across as a follower to me Sogs..he's blatantly more intelligent than the blonde gorilla running the show..but he simply isn't getting anywhere near to making Jonhsons reign untenable...and that's disappointing if you're a supporter of any kind of true viable opposition.

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The Other Side of the Coin on 15:13 - Dec 23 with 1493 viewssaint901

It's been said before that the Labour party has to win a war against itself before it wins an election.

There remain hard left elements in the Labour party and for so long as they have or are near the reins of power, nobody will touch them. Starmer has not yet rooted out those elements and until he does, he's not going to win a general election.

He also wants BJ to stay because he is Labour's greatest asset in an election.
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The Other Side of the Coin on 15:23 - Dec 23 with 1486 viewssaint68

The Other Side of the Coin on 14:29 - Dec 23 by Saintsforeverj

It's dreadful when scientists keep making statements of fear that have a huge impact on people. So many people missing out on seeing loved ones, sat inside anxious when it was actually more dangerous when the delta variant was rampant a few months ago. They said in the summer that unlocking too early would be disastrous, it wasn't. It was actually helpful to increase immunity in the population. This time they said there would be 5000 deaths a day. Now we hear Omicron is much milder. Arn't they supposed to be experts? This new more transmissable mild variant is actually good news as it will take over from previously more dangerous variants. That is the common journey of a virus anyway, become less dangerous but more easily transmitted.

Wales and Scotland taking away people's liberties and risking collapse of people's businesses, mental health and the economy, when there are fewer deaths than the last few months, just shows how we shouldn't be listening to the scientists come what may. For all its faults, at least this government, held fire, rather than panicking into restrictions that weren't necessary.
[Post edited 23 Dec 2021 14:33]


Exposure and immunity are intrinsically linked..hide and seek is just delaying/postponing the inevitable ....remarkably over the past 13000 years humans have defeated numerous outbreaks and swelled un numbers to 7+ Billion...

Scientists are in the whole bipolar individuals that concentrate on their chosen subject at the dismissal of a normal family life..they are committed and I applaud their single mindedness to become the best in they're selected field.
[Post edited 23 Dec 2021 15:26]

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The Other Side of the Coin on 15:33 - Dec 23 with 1476 viewsSaintsforeverj

The Other Side of the Coin on 15:23 - Dec 23 by saint68

Exposure and immunity are intrinsically linked..hide and seek is just delaying/postponing the inevitable ....remarkably over the past 13000 years humans have defeated numerous outbreaks and swelled un numbers to 7+ Billion...

Scientists are in the whole bipolar individuals that concentrate on their chosen subject at the dismissal of a normal family life..they are committed and I applaud their single mindedness to become the best in they're selected field.
[Post edited 23 Dec 2021 15:26]


But I do think they have to be careful with what they say. They are focussed on one thing. Some hospitality going out of business this Christmas, arguably because scientists scared a lot of people from going out and spending their money. Many people too scared to see their relatives at Christmas, despite no legal restrictions. I think unelected scientists need to be careful about impact they are having on the economy as well as people's lives, especially when they make wild forecasts that turn out to be completely wrong.

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The Other Side of the Coin on 15:48 - Dec 23 with 1455 viewssaint68

The Other Side of the Coin on 15:33 - Dec 23 by Saintsforeverj

But I do think they have to be careful with what they say. They are focussed on one thing. Some hospitality going out of business this Christmas, arguably because scientists scared a lot of people from going out and spending their money. Many people too scared to see their relatives at Christmas, despite no legal restrictions. I think unelected scientists need to be careful about impact they are having on the economy as well as people's lives, especially when they make wild forecasts that turn out to be completely wrong.


The greatest amount of deaths attributed to covid came when scientists/experts decided to shut down hospitals and send infected individuals to care homes...last year was the lowest amount for decades for people passing away in hospital...they literally scared people to death in their own homes.

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The Other Side of the Coin on 18:47 - Dec 23 with 1367 viewsSadoldgit

The Other Side of the Coin on 15:23 - Dec 23 by saint68

Exposure and immunity are intrinsically linked..hide and seek is just delaying/postponing the inevitable ....remarkably over the past 13000 years humans have defeated numerous outbreaks and swelled un numbers to 7+ Billion...

Scientists are in the whole bipolar individuals that concentrate on their chosen subject at the dismissal of a normal family life..they are committed and I applaud their single mindedness to become the best in they're selected field.
[Post edited 23 Dec 2021 15:26]


Tell this to the millions who died of the plague, the Spanish Flu etc.
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The Other Side of the Coin on 18:53 - Dec 23 with 1362 viewssaint68

The Other Side of the Coin on 18:47 - Dec 23 by Sadoldgit

Tell this to the millions who died of the plague, the Spanish Flu etc.


3 to 6 million people die each decade from influenza Sogs, sad but true

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The Other Side of the Coin on 19:28 - Dec 23 with 1343 viewssaint68

Check-out this absolute crock of shyte..anyone believing this has good reason to question their sanity

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10335487/amp/Up-90-Covid-patients-ICU-u

And as for the big cheesey grin..WTAF

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The Other Side of the Coin on 20:39 - Dec 23 with 1315 viewsBicester_North

The Other Side of the Coin on 14:09 - Dec 23 by Sadoldgit

It seems to me that Starmer comes across as a far better PM figure than Johnson. He constantly rips him to shreds in the Commons and makes him look like the idiot he is. The problem is that the people who voted for him have only just started to cotton on what they voted for. The last by election hopefully showed that the tide is finally turning.


Not because Labour are any good, there are too many weird anti British spouting helmets in that party and they all seem to want to lock down as hard as possible, without any other ideas.
It’s because of all the Tory w@nkery that they lost the by election.

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The Other Side of the Coin on 07:53 - Dec 24 with 1246 viewsBerber

The Other Side of the Coin on 14:09 - Dec 23 by Sadoldgit

It seems to me that Starmer comes across as a far better PM figure than Johnson. He constantly rips him to shreds in the Commons and makes him look like the idiot he is. The problem is that the people who voted for him have only just started to cotton on what they voted for. The last by election hopefully showed that the tide is finally turning.


Sadly, Starmer comes across as a serious looking Mr Bean. No charisma and certainly unable to pin Boris down, even at his most lamentable. No chance at becoming PM, though slightly higher than Corbyn. Sad really when the field is wide open we just get turgid dialogue with unimpressive delivery. Worthy won’t do it for Labour.
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The Other Side of the Coin on 07:54 - Dec 24 with 1245 viewsBerber

The Other Side of the Coin on 14:51 - Dec 23 by saint68

Starmer comes across as a follower to me Sogs..he's blatantly more intelligent than the blonde gorilla running the show..but he simply isn't getting anywhere near to making Jonhsons reign untenable...and that's disappointing if you're a supporter of any kind of true viable opposition.


I am with you on thi one.
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The Other Side of the Coin on 07:59 - Dec 24 with 1237 viewsBerber

The Other Side of the Coin on 19:28 - Dec 23 by saint68

Check-out this absolute crock of shyte..anyone believing this has good reason to question their sanity

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10335487/amp/Up-90-Covid-patients-ICU-u

And as for the big cheesey grin..WTAF


So his daily hands on experience, replicated elsewhere by relatives of mine, is a crock of sh1t? Where is your evidence for that?
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The Other Side of the Coin on 15:10 - Dec 24 with 1151 viewsWaylander

The Other Side of the Coin on 15:23 - Dec 23 by saint68

Exposure and immunity are intrinsically linked..hide and seek is just delaying/postponing the inevitable ....remarkably over the past 13000 years humans have defeated numerous outbreaks and swelled un numbers to 7+ Billion...

Scientists are in the whole bipolar individuals that concentrate on their chosen subject at the dismissal of a normal family life..they are committed and I applaud their single mindedness to become the best in they're selected field.
[Post edited 23 Dec 2021 15:26]


Broad generalisation or what!
Do you know many scientists? I think not. I know lots because I am one and I can think of very few individuals who fit your description.
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The Other Side of the Coin on 18:10 - Dec 24 with 1124 viewssaint68

The Other Side of the Coin on 15:10 - Dec 24 by Waylander

Broad generalisation or what!
Do you know many scientists? I think not. I know lots because I am one and I can think of very few individuals who fit your description.


So you'd have given your backing to send infected people back to nursing homes and made individuals so scared of going to hospital they'd prefer to die at home with their family...thats basically where you're at MR expert!!!

Because that is exactly what happened Champ.
[Post edited 24 Dec 2021 18:17]

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