| EU Referendum question is set 14:39 - May 28 with 7601 views | C_jack |
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union?"
Shrewd, as the Pro-EU now have control of the 'Yes' campaign, with the question and campaign focusing around the benefits of staying |  |
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| EU Referendum question is set on 14:44 - May 28 with 5070 views | monmouth |
Answer... 'no one knows'. But everyone will tell you that they do absolutely know and that their view -whichever way- is absolutely correct with a load of spun arguments, plenty of 'statistics' and TV soundbite after TV soundbite. Shoot me now. |  |
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| EU Referendum question is set on 14:45 - May 28 with 5070 views | scottishjack |
I don't know, Alex Salmond fought to have "Should Scotland be an independent country?", so in theory he had the positive side of the argument with the Yes campaign and fell short.
It may hold a slight advantage but I would imagine only a minor one. |  | | |
| EU Referendum question is set on 14:54 - May 28 with 5062 views | C_jack |
| EU Referendum question is set on 14:45 - May 28 by scottishjack |
I don't know, Alex Salmond fought to have "Should Scotland be an independent country?", so in theory he had the positive side of the argument with the Yes campaign and fell short.
It may hold a slight advantage but I would imagine only a minor one. |
I think he fought for the right reasons, but for the wrong question. The word 'independent' is a strong word that revokes ideas of permanence, and definitely spooked potential Yes voters. I think he would have had a better chance with something like 'Should Scotland leave the control of the United Kingdom?' or similiar [Post edited 28 May 2015 14:55]
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| EU Referendum question is set on 15:01 - May 28 with 5042 views | yescomeon |
What's the latest on when it will be? |  |
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| EU Referendum question is set on 15:03 - May 28 with 5040 views | scottishjack |
| EU Referendum question is set on 14:54 - May 28 by C_jack |
I think he fought for the right reasons, but for the wrong question. The word 'independent' is a strong word that revokes ideas of permanence, and definitely spooked potential Yes voters. I think he would have had a better chance with something like 'Should Scotland leave the control of the United Kingdom?' or similiar [Post edited 28 May 2015 14:55]
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You could well be right, but I honestly think and hope that the Scottish referendum actually cam down to both sides of the arguments on both sides, and a small majority decided the argument was more compelling to stay in the Union.
As for this EU referendum, it's still early days, but I have absolutely no idea what we will be voting for or against? Hopefully nearer the time, the good folk on here will put it all into more simple terms for me, and then I can start to form an opinion.
On a final side note, credit to David Cameron for not wasting time getting this up and running. Many doubted that a referendum would take place and would be quietly sidelined after the election, but we seem to be going for it. | | | |
| EU Referendum question is set on 18:16 - May 28 with 4955 views | Flashberryjack |
The European Community is a monster that's grown completely out of control. |  |
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| EU Referendum question is set on 18:31 - May 28 with 4928 views | Kilkennyjack |
The yes vote will win by a landslide. The EU is our most important market and is vital for wales future. Plus i like swans having spanish and dutch players. |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| EU Referendum question is set on 19:21 - May 28 with 4906 views | exiledclaseboy |
The plan is for Dave to spend the next year saying to his EU mates "Give me something, a couple of small sops I can take back to the UK as concessions." And he'll get a couple of small but high profile things which will allow the Tories to claim victory and recommend a "yes" vote. Then all the major parties will campaign to stay in the EU and the referendum will be won (or lost depending on your point of view). There's no way a "no" vote will happen. Just my opinion. |  |
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| EU Referendum question is set on 19:27 - May 28 with 4893 views | Jackfath |
Could someone who knows briefly and simply put forward the cases for staying and leaving the EU? Like me, I am sure there are many on here who are aware we are in the EU but apart from the main points know what the consequences of either result would actually mean for the average man on the street in Swansea. |  |
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| EU Referendum question is set on 19:35 - May 28 with 4879 views | C_jack |
| EU Referendum question is set on 19:27 - May 28 by Jackfath |
Could someone who knows briefly and simply put forward the cases for staying and leaving the EU? Like me, I am sure there are many on here who are aware we are in the EU but apart from the main points know what the consequences of either result would actually mean for the average man on the street in Swansea. |
This is a cross party campaign group for leaving
http://www.betteroffout.net/ | |
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| EU Referendum question is set on 19:39 - May 28 with 4869 views | dickythorpe |
As Jackfath has said could someone in point form lay out the pros and cons.....plus would we see a difference if we left? |  | | |
| EU Referendum question is set on 20:20 - May 28 with 4789 views | dgt73 |
| EU Referendum question is set on 19:53 - May 28 by exiledclaseboy |
You're entitled to your view. Time will tell. Never claimed to be Nostradamus. My election predictions were in line with everyone else's. No one predicted a Tory majority and anyone who claims they did (apart from tdh on here to be fair) is lying. 4m UKIP voters plus those who may have voted tactically aren't going to win a referendum of 40m voters. Especially when the Yes campaign will include all major political parties and most of the press. |
Well that's it then - no point in having a referendum - the yes vote has already won...? |  |
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| EU Referendum question is set on 20:29 - May 28 with 4776 views | londonlisa2001 |
| EU Referendum question is set on 19:27 - May 28 by Jackfath |
Could someone who knows briefly and simply put forward the cases for staying and leaving the EU? Like me, I am sure there are many on here who are aware we are in the EU but apart from the main points know what the consequences of either result would actually mean for the average man on the street in Swansea. |
In my view, and it's only a view, a lot of people in the Swansea area have just been affected by Ford laying off staff because the engines they were building to go to Russia are not needed any more because of the trade sanctions in place. Now imagine that effect multiplied by the major European markets.
I am not one who believes that everyone in Europe will just stop trading with us - we are an important market. But, at the moment, there are US / Japanese / Korean companies etc (as an example) who use us as a useful bridge to the EU single market. We are in a very fortunate position as the only English speaking access which works for the US / Canada / Australia and the Commonwealth countries as a whole as well as for Asia. My worry if we were to pull out, would, in some ways be less that BMW suddenly stop making the Mini here and more that Nissan / Ford would stop manufacturing here as they would seek out other parts of the EU in which to have their base. It wouldn't be immediate of course, but I'd worry that the next generation of factories would go elsewhere.
Also, love it or hate it, the financial services industry is worth a fortune to our economy, and it would be a possible push towards Frankfurt, who are our only rivals in Europe.
The case for leaving, as I understand it, is to do with the lack of control of our own affairs in some ways, whether they be legal, fiscal, or just simply to do with cost / bureaucracy. I'm sure that most people believe that the whole thing needs to be streamlined and given a much clearer remit on what it is supposed to be.
Your question though highlights the issue that I think we'll all have. Someone needs to lay out the pros and cons without stupid party politics. |  | | |
| EU Referendum question is set on 21:00 - May 28 with 4755 views | jackonicko |
| EU Referendum question is set on 19:27 - May 28 by Jackfath |
Could someone who knows briefly and simply put forward the cases for staying and leaving the EU? Like me, I am sure there are many on here who are aware we are in the EU but apart from the main points know what the consequences of either result would actually mean for the average man on the street in Swansea. |
To be honest, I don't think anyone can do that. It's an incredibly complex question with a yes or no answer.
If I had to vote today, I think I would vote no. But I'm open to be persuaded to vote yes. It's a very marginal call. However, I doubt the campaign will shine any particular light or transparency on the issues, unfortunately, so god knows how I will vote next year. Maybe toss a coin. |  | | |
| EU Referendum question is set on 21:17 - May 28 with 4744 views | londonlisa2001 |
| EU Referendum question is set on 21:00 - May 28 by jackonicko |
To be honest, I don't think anyone can do that. It's an incredibly complex question with a yes or no answer.
If I had to vote today, I think I would vote no. But I'm open to be persuaded to vote yes. It's a very marginal call. However, I doubt the campaign will shine any particular light or transparency on the issues, unfortunately, so god knows how I will vote next year. Maybe toss a coin. |
You'd vote to come out? Really? | | | |
| EU Referendum question is set on 21:51 - May 28 with 4726 views | C_jack |
Post war, the EU had a purpose, for a group of nations to work together to mutually benefit one another, and regain prosperity after such a difficult time. Move on to 2015, and we now have 28 members, that's over 50% of possible membership, with countries like Turkey knocking on the door to come in. They won't let the Turks in mind, I'll let you wonder why.
We are the 6th biggest economy in the world, to put that at the credit of the EU belies, and is an insult in fact, to our history.
Some of the largest investors in the UK are countries like US and Switzerland, two non-Eu members. Not members such as Luxembourg and Malta. Do you think the any heavyweight nation is going to simply refuse to trade with us if we leave? Not going to happen, they may as well cut their own throats. Not to mention there are rules and regulations to prevent us being marginalised in regards to trade if it were to happen.
Again, being such a large economic power, they need us more than we need them, they sell more to us, than we do to them. Countries such as Norway and Switzerland function just fine, and arguably thrive even, without being EU members, it is possible.
For me, it's more about the out of control bureaucracy. We are at the mercy of the common market. and in all but name, are merely one member of the United States of Europe. We are losing control over our laws, our justice system, which is now shaped and controlled hundreds of miles away from our mainland
There are now 730 members in the 'European Parliament', with the UK having just 70 members, that's an 8% share of the vote. It's incredibly difficult to veto rules that get passed that we think are basically a load of s**te . We are the equivalent of Plaid Cymru in Westminster trying to vote against anything. Why are we putting our governance and laws up for debate with such a paltry share of the vote? they are not good odds.
It has quite simply outgrown it's purpose, and the only way it would work with the amount of inflated members it now has, would be for everyone to go on the same currency, abide by the same laws and generally be governed from a stuffy room in Brussels. That is inevitably, the end game. [Post edited 28 May 2015 21:52]
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| EU Referendum question is set on 22:17 - May 28 with 4702 views | exiledclaseboy |
| EU Referendum question is set on 21:51 - May 28 by C_jack |
Post war, the EU had a purpose, for a group of nations to work together to mutually benefit one another, and regain prosperity after such a difficult time. Move on to 2015, and we now have 28 members, that's over 50% of possible membership, with countries like Turkey knocking on the door to come in. They won't let the Turks in mind, I'll let you wonder why.
We are the 6th biggest economy in the world, to put that at the credit of the EU belies, and is an insult in fact, to our history.
Some of the largest investors in the UK are countries like US and Switzerland, two non-Eu members. Not members such as Luxembourg and Malta. Do you think the any heavyweight nation is going to simply refuse to trade with us if we leave? Not going to happen, they may as well cut their own throats. Not to mention there are rules and regulations to prevent us being marginalised in regards to trade if it were to happen.
Again, being such a large economic power, they need us more than we need them, they sell more to us, than we do to them. Countries such as Norway and Switzerland function just fine, and arguably thrive even, without being EU members, it is possible.
For me, it's more about the out of control bureaucracy. We are at the mercy of the common market. and in all but name, are merely one member of the United States of Europe. We are losing control over our laws, our justice system, which is now shaped and controlled hundreds of miles away from our mainland
There are now 730 members in the 'European Parliament', with the UK having just 70 members, that's an 8% share of the vote. It's incredibly difficult to veto rules that get passed that we think are basically a load of s**te . We are the equivalent of Plaid Cymru in Westminster trying to vote against anything. Why are we putting our governance and laws up for debate with such a paltry share of the vote? they are not good odds.
It has quite simply outgrown it's purpose, and the only way it would work with the amount of inflated members it now has, would be for everyone to go on the same currency, abide by the same laws and generally be governed from a stuffy room in Brussels. That is inevitably, the end game. [Post edited 28 May 2015 21:52]
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I don't necessarily agree with much of that but if when it comes to the campaign the arguments on both sides ares stated as eloquently and reasonably as yours at least the quality of the debate will increase | |
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| EU Referendum question is set on 09:56 - May 29 with 4633 views | jackonicko |
| EU Referendum question is set on 21:17 - May 28 by londonlisa2001 |
You'd vote to come out? Really? |
Right now, yes, I would (marginally) side on the vote to come out. I agree with quite a bit of C_Jack’s excellent post above.
Of course there are advantages to staying in, and one of those is the fear of the unknown if we were to pull out. Noone really knows how things would pan out. But voting yes for just that reason is the coward’s way out.
It’s certainly not the immigration argument for me. As I’ve stated elsewhere, I’m happier to see higher net migration into the country than we currently see. My fear on coming out is that politicians will use their new found ability to limit migration to choke off the people we need to come here to keep the economy sustained, in order to satisfy newspaper headlines.
However, I don’t buy the scare stories that leaving the EU would be a disaster — especially when they largely come from the same business leaders who told us that staying out of the Euro would be a disaster. I disagreed with them then, and I disagree with them now. The EU needs the UK just as much, if not more, than the UK needs the EU.
People use scary statistics that say 50% of our foreign trade is with the EU, but overlook that we trade quite happily with the other 50% with countries that aren’t in the EU. And if you look at the contribution that foreign trade makes to our national GDP figure, which is actually surprisingly small, then 50% of a surprisingly small figure is a very surprisingly small figure. It's not the big deal they make it out to be.
What I’m saying is that economically, I think the UK could do just fine. There is no way the rest of the EU will erect trade barriers — we are too important to them. Free movement of trade with the EU will remain, but we will have scope to more effectively negotiate elsewhere. The cost of membership is high through our annual contributions, and the direction of travel is that it is only going to be higher. And I don't see the value in it.
My other objections are political and philosophical. My politics may be right of centre economically, but the reason I agree with ECB so often is that I also believe in democracy and I have a strong liberal streak. I believe in fairness, the sovereignty of our democratically elected lower chamber, the importance of the supremacy of the UK judiciary - and I see much of that undermined by the EU in its pursuit of “ever closer union”.
I was a very strong proponent of the EU in the early 90s, but that has been eroded by more recent treaties, judgents from the ECJ and structural changes within the EU triumvirate of the Commission, the Parliament and the Council. There were judgments in the 90s from the ECJ (e.g. the Cassis du Dijon case) that eroded the sovereignty of parliament and blunted our judisciary in a way I fundamentally and philosophically disagree with.
The EU project as it currently stands is flawed (for many of the reasons C-Jack outlined), I don't like the direction the EU project is heading, and I don’t buy the economic argument of the threat of coming out. So, just about on balance, that’s a no vote for me. It’s up to Cameron to make his case to persuade me. [Post edited 29 May 2015 9:59]
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| EU Referendum question is set on 10:04 - May 29 with 4626 views | dgt73 |
| EU Referendum question is set on 09:56 - May 29 by jackonicko |
Right now, yes, I would (marginally) side on the vote to come out. I agree with quite a bit of C_Jack’s excellent post above.
Of course there are advantages to staying in, and one of those is the fear of the unknown if we were to pull out. Noone really knows how things would pan out. But voting yes for just that reason is the coward’s way out.
It’s certainly not the immigration argument for me. As I’ve stated elsewhere, I’m happier to see higher net migration into the country than we currently see. My fear on coming out is that politicians will use their new found ability to limit migration to choke off the people we need to come here to keep the economy sustained, in order to satisfy newspaper headlines.
However, I don’t buy the scare stories that leaving the EU would be a disaster — especially when they largely come from the same business leaders who told us that staying out of the Euro would be a disaster. I disagreed with them then, and I disagree with them now. The EU needs the UK just as much, if not more, than the UK needs the EU.
People use scary statistics that say 50% of our foreign trade is with the EU, but overlook that we trade quite happily with the other 50% with countries that aren’t in the EU. And if you look at the contribution that foreign trade makes to our national GDP figure, which is actually surprisingly small, then 50% of a surprisingly small figure is a very surprisingly small figure. It's not the big deal they make it out to be.
What I’m saying is that economically, I think the UK could do just fine. There is no way the rest of the EU will erect trade barriers — we are too important to them. Free movement of trade with the EU will remain, but we will have scope to more effectively negotiate elsewhere. The cost of membership is high through our annual contributions, and the direction of travel is that it is only going to be higher. And I don't see the value in it.
My other objections are political and philosophical. My politics may be right of centre economically, but the reason I agree with ECB so often is that I also believe in democracy and I have a strong liberal streak. I believe in fairness, the sovereignty of our democratically elected lower chamber, the importance of the supremacy of the UK judiciary - and I see much of that undermined by the EU in its pursuit of “ever closer union”.
I was a very strong proponent of the EU in the early 90s, but that has been eroded by more recent treaties, judgents from the ECJ and structural changes within the EU triumvirate of the Commission, the Parliament and the Council. There were judgments in the 90s from the ECJ (e.g. the Cassis du Dijon case) that eroded the sovereignty of parliament and blunted our judisciary in a way I fundamentally and philosophically disagree with.
The EU project as it currently stands is flawed (for many of the reasons C-Jack outlined), I don't like the direction the EU project is heading, and I don’t buy the economic argument of the threat of coming out. So, just about on balance, that’s a no vote for me. It’s up to Cameron to make his case to persuade me. [Post edited 29 May 2015 9:59]
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All scare stories - are company's such as bmw going to stop selling their products to the British people, of course not. Will EU countries stop buying British goods, of course not....how will the British people cope outside of the EU ? - just like they have for the last 1000 yrs, with no problem at all. | |
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| EU Referendum question is set on 10:31 - May 29 with 4613 views | yescomeon |
I find it amusing that the people who are pro UK independence would be the very same anti Scottish or Welsh independence and use pretty much the same arguments that those pro Scottish or Welsh independence would use, and I would guess that many of those who are pro Scottish and Welsh independence will be anti UK independence and use the same arguments that those who are pro UK would use.
My view on it is that Wales needs the EU money, I trust neither Westminster nor the current Assembly to fund everything that needs funding in Wales. I would worry for the future I want should the UK leave the EU. | |
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| EU Referendum question is set on 10:52 - May 29 with 4599 views | dgt73 |
| EU Referendum question is set on 10:31 - May 29 by yescomeon |
I find it amusing that the people who are pro UK independence would be the very same anti Scottish or Welsh independence and use pretty much the same arguments that those pro Scottish or Welsh independence would use, and I would guess that many of those who are pro Scottish and Welsh independence will be anti UK independence and use the same arguments that those who are pro UK would use.
My view on it is that Wales needs the EU money, I trust neither Westminster nor the current Assembly to fund everything that needs funding in Wales. I would worry for the future I want should the UK leave the EU. |
EU money? What money is that then ? Do you mean the money that the UK gives to the EU. It's a bit like you giving me £10 and me then paying you £7 back....would you then think you have had a good deal?. | |
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| EU Referendum question is set on 11:05 - May 29 with 4592 views | yescomeon |
| EU Referendum question is set on 10:52 - May 29 by dgt73 |
EU money? What money is that then ? Do you mean the money that the UK gives to the EU. It's a bit like you giving me £10 and me then paying you £7 back....would you then think you have had a good deal?. |
If it is money that would not be coming to Wales anyway I couldn't really give a toss if it more being paid back by the UK than is give to Wales, to be Frank like. | |
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Almost 4 million people voted ukip at the General election, and that doesn't include people who voted tactically to keep labour out. No way a no vote you say lol, I disagree.