| Latimer Road 02:31 - Jun 14 with 95440 views | stowmarketrange |
A big fire in a tower block in Latimer Road just been reported on 5live.Eyewitness says there are people trapped on the upper floors.
I hope everyone gets out safely. |  | | |  |
| Latimer Road on 12:52 - Jun 17 with 2786 views | FDC |
| Latimer Road on 10:24 - Jun 17 by PunteR |
Your welcome.
"ninny -
Quite possibly the coolest insult ever. Short for nincompoop, it was used often in Victorian Europe and early North America. Insult of choice for monocole-wearing gentry, and anyone with a bit of class.
My, what a ninny! *monocle* " |
Ninny, what a blinding word. Definitely getting that out at some point today |  | | |
| Latimer Road on 13:03 - Jun 17 with 2758 views | 1BobbyHazell |
Fantastic speech from Benn. |  | | |
| Latimer Road on 13:13 - Jun 17 with 2729 views | Juzzie |
This is much, much deeper and more complex than merely "this wouldnt have happened if xxxxx was in power". This goes right down to local council level far more than central government.
Of course there's accountability at council level because this is there area but getting really tired of the opportunities for party bashing that is turning up on every fking thread.
Subject: "It's summer and I like ice cream" - quite an innocent topic but would be followed by pages of threads about how Tories have reduced the number of ice creams vans on the street and retorts of a Labour government would have driven up prices.
Blah blag boring fking blah. |  | | |
| Latimer Road on 13:24 - Jun 17 with 2700 views | FDC |
| Latimer Road on 09:52 - Jun 17 by TacticalR |
I think it is a perfectly reasonable question, and goes to the heart of some the current debates in this country.
You say two slightly conflicting things
1. It's due to neoliberalism (seeming to imply that it's due to a particular form of capitalism)
2. It's a systematic failure in our society (seeming to imply that it's due to capitalism itself)
The assumption behind argument 1 is that capitalism is a successful system, it's just that its fruits have been very unevenly distributed. The vast and growing inequalities are therefore a lifestyle choice or an evil plot on the part of the elite.
The assumption behind argument 2 is that capitalism is in deep crisis and will continue to hack away at the state that it can no longer afford (the only exception being the large payments to its middle class clientele who run these arm's length housing bodies, free schools, charities etc). The vast and growing inequalities are therefore an expression of the decaying system.
I do think in the current Corbyn euphoria that people have lost sight of the fact that Labour is a pro-capitalist party.
While it's true that Tory apologists will point to Labour's complicity in this, that or the other scheme of the elite to obscure the fact that the Tories are the preferred and natural party of the ruling class, I don't think Punter falls into that category as he made it clear he didn't vote in the election. |
I don't think 1 and 2 are contradictory really. From what we know it would appear that putting profits before people (capitalsim) has played a role in the scale of this tragedy, within the context of the marketisation of public housing (neoliberalism).
Re Corbyn euphoria, it's a point well made - Labour has historically been the party that manages capitalism so as to curtail it's most dangerous excesses, serving to save it from itself. However, I don't think the ultra-leftist position (which I'm not saying you hold btw) of conceiving of this as a reform v revolution binary is useful. Parliamentary politics and extra-parliamentary politics exist within a symbiotic relationship. I've a lot to say on this actually, but it's probably for another forum. | | | |
| Latimer Road on 13:49 - Jun 17 with 2659 views | kensalriser |
| Latimer Road on 13:13 - Jun 17 by Juzzie |
This is much, much deeper and more complex than merely "this wouldnt have happened if xxxxx was in power". This goes right down to local council level far more than central government.
Of course there's accountability at council level because this is there area but getting really tired of the opportunities for party bashing that is turning up on every fking thread.
Subject: "It's summer and I like ice cream" - quite an innocent topic but would be followed by pages of threads about how Tories have reduced the number of ice creams vans on the street and retorts of a Labour government would have driven up prices.
Blah blag boring fking blah. |
Here's a list of policies. What party would you associate them with?
Scrapping or reducing regulations
Cost-cutting
Privatising services
Cutting services
Contracting out
Housing policies geared towards reducing social housing and encouraging private sector |  |
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| Latimer Road on 14:12 - Jun 17 with 2608 views | Northolt_Rs |
| Latimer Road on 13:03 - Jun 17 by 1BobbyHazell |
Fantastic speech from Benn. |
Amen - it's a remarkable speech from an eighty-odd year old guy. Thatcher really was the nemesis of the working class. 'Two flames: Anger and Hope'. Tremendous stuff. |  |
| Scooters, Tunes, Trainers and QPR. |
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| Latimer Road on 14:21 - Jun 17 with 2575 views | Juzzie |
| Latimer Road on 13:49 - Jun 17 by kensalriser |
Here's a list of policies. What party would you associate them with?
Scrapping or reducing regulations
Cost-cutting
Privatising services
Cutting services
Contracting out
Housing policies geared towards reducing social housing and encouraging private sector |
That's not my point.
My point is that it's the same people every time,
Thread after thread saying the same thing over and over in the hope someone will change their mind when it's obvious people on opposite opinions are never going to agree. | | | |
| Latimer Road on 14:23 - Jun 17 with 2569 views | QPR_John |
I knew nothing about this cladding. Why should I it has never been mentioned before. The Tories were in power when the tower was refurbished but where was the opposition. They had many opportunities to raise the problem but seemingly did not. Whatever the Tories have or have not done there's was an opposition who could have made the dangers public. It seems the problem of the cladding was raised on many occasions and surely other parties apart from the Tories were aware of it. Just wonder why nobody with a public platform thought to raise questions before the horrors of that inferno. |  | | |
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| Latimer Road on 14:39 - Jun 17 with 2549 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Latimer Road on 14:23 - Jun 17 by QPR_John |
I knew nothing about this cladding. Why should I it has never been mentioned before. The Tories were in power when the tower was refurbished but where was the opposition. They had many opportunities to raise the problem but seemingly did not. Whatever the Tories have or have not done there's was an opposition who could have made the dangers public. It seems the problem of the cladding was raised on many occasions and surely other parties apart from the Tories were aware of it. Just wonder why nobody with a public platform thought to raise questions before the horrors of that inferno. |
I would say one reason but not the only one would be the Blairite PLP members that have been detached from real life, that are seen as no better than the tories who have done nothing.
However Labour laid two bits of legislation to make homes safer in two years. The Tories blocked both. [Post edited 17 Jun 2017 14:47]
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| Latimer Road on 15:30 - Jun 17 with 2449 views | TacticalR |
| Latimer Road on 14:21 - Jun 17 by Juzzie |
That's not my point.
My point is that it's the same people every time,
Thread after thread saying the same thing over and over in the hope someone will change their mind when it's obvious people on opposite opinions are never going to agree. |
Although it's true that political discussion of itself is unlikely to change anyone's opinion (particularly as nobody can see beyond their own experience), I still think they are worth having, as long as they are productive to some degree. Hopefully they allow people to make sense of their own experience and, if experience changes, come to a new understanding. They can also teach you something even when you don't agree. For example, on the Thatcherism thread a few years ago I learnt that a lot more people than I expected thought that Thatcher's harsh medicine had been successful.
There's also a big difference between having a discussion with someone who defends the status quo (which is probably just going through the motions), and having a discussion with someone who has a competing vision of how to change the status quo (which is likely to be more productive). And are we going to let the all the anti-Muslim stuff go unchallenged?
Finally, as we have seen in the last day, without any real hope for the future or change in political understanding people's frustration will just explode in blind outbursts of anger. |  |
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| Latimer Road on 15:31 - Jun 17 with 2446 views | QPR_John |
| Latimer Road on 14:39 - Jun 17 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
I would say one reason but not the only one would be the Blairite PLP members that have been detached from real life, that are seen as no better than the tories who have done nothing.
However Labour laid two bits of legislation to make homes safer in two years. The Tories blocked both. [Post edited 17 Jun 2017 14:47]
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I did not know that why should I as I do not live and breathe politics. That is my point with Corbyn as leader for the last two years surely somebody on the opposition benches could have raised the question. PMQs are televised. If people knew about it, even if not the power to change things, and did not question it they cannot escape some responsibility. Responsibility is not black or white or even right or left. | | | |
| Latimer Road on 15:54 - Jun 17 with 2401 views | Boston |
| Latimer Road on 10:50 - Jun 17 by hubble |
You've got mired in semantics and you've lost me with your reasoning. I didn't say anything like how you're interpreting it.
There is no contradiction in the statement that the problems are systemic and that years of promoting neo-liberal capitalism are equally culpable in creating a society where the poor are demonised and the gap between rich and poor in our society is so vast it is revolting. Both are true - IMO.
It's only a 'perfectly reasonable question' if it is presented as such - i.e "would things have been different under a Labour government?" - but it wasn't.
Mussolini allegedly said "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power". We have seen how corporate power has grown under successive governments in this country and abroad, not least in the media and how they dominate the cultural narrative. As I said earlier, I think the tide is turning against this among ordinary people who are justifiably and righteously angry about all of is, not just the horrors of Grenfell, but the whole goddamn situation we find ourselves in in 2017.
Is Labour pro-capitalist under Corbyn? I don't think so. It certainly was previously, under Blair and Brown, egregiously so. You may be of the Thatcher school of thought - TINA - there is no alternative (to capitalism) - I don't know. but there certainly are alternatives, and perhaps we should be exploring them. I think Yuval Noah Harari's game-changing book Sapiens is excellent on this. One thing he considers at is how racism is generally considered unacceptable these days, but having a huge divide between rich and poor, which is tacitly supported by most, is not. Maybe it's time we reconsidered the neo-liberal justification that 'the poor will always be with us.'
I think this man sums up the righteous anger and growing awareness amongst ordinary people that it's a rigged system and it's time it was changed: https://www.joe.co.uk/news/this-mans-passionate-speech-about-the-british-media-i |
There will always be poor people or certainly people catagorized as poor in relation to the rest of the society they live in. The measure of poverty is the poverty line, this fluctuates in step with the economic average of the country. | |
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| Latimer Road on 15:58 - Jun 17 with 2386 views | Boston |
| Latimer Road on 12:52 - Jun 17 by FDC |
Ninny, what a blinding word. Definitely getting that out at some point today |
I've always rued the day 'bounder' dropped out of the lexicon. | |
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| Latimer Road on 16:01 - Jun 17 with 2380 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Latimer Road on 15:31 - Jun 17 by QPR_John |
I did not know that why should I as I do not live and breathe politics. That is my point with Corbyn as leader for the last two years surely somebody on the opposition benches could have raised the question. PMQs are televised. If people knew about it, even if not the power to change things, and did not question it they cannot escape some responsibility. Responsibility is not black or white or even right or left. |
When you say question do you mean about cladding
This has been asked about by Harriet Harman after Lakanal House
I'm sorry but you need to do a bit more research on this yourself before asking questions on what is already out there if you care to look.
Responsibility, would you not say that K&C and their leaders are all responsible if they are the ones in control of this council.
Do you think they should be removed from power in that council. [Post edited 17 Jun 2017 16:36]
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| Latimer Road on 16:04 - Jun 17 with 2370 views | Boston |
| Latimer Road on 15:31 - Jun 17 by QPR_John |
I did not know that why should I as I do not live and breathe politics. That is my point with Corbyn as leader for the last two years surely somebody on the opposition benches could have raised the question. PMQs are televised. If people knew about it, even if not the power to change things, and did not question it they cannot escape some responsibility. Responsibility is not black or white or even right or left. |
Politicians do not no about it. They are generally ignorant. | |
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| Latimer Road on 16:06 - Jun 17 with 2358 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Latimer Road on 16:04 - Jun 17 by Boston |
Politicians do not no about it. They are generally ignorant. |
See my post above, it was known about | |
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| Latimer Road on 16:24 - Jun 17 with 2316 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| Latimer Road on 14:21 - Jun 17 by Juzzie |
That's not my point.
My point is that it's the same people every time,
Thread after thread saying the same thing over and over in the hope someone will change their mind when it's obvious people on opposite opinions are never going to agree. |
I get what you mean and that may be true of the participants who post mainly "all Tories are...", or "all lefties are...", or get busy telling us who they hate and why or just parroting the latest received wisdom. But there are plenty of posters who provide interesting viewpoints and information. There can be a lot of agreement and coming together, just look at me and SteveC, we're besties now and he thinks anyone to the left of Norman Tebbit is a f*cking commie! | | | |
| Latimer Road on 16:55 - Jun 17 with 2254 views | TheBlob |
The smouldering bodies(what's left of them)are still unrecovered and you're all playing political ping pong?
Give it a f*cking rest. |  |
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| Latimer Road on 16:59 - Jun 17 with 2247 views | Northolt_Rs |
| Latimer Road on 10:51 - Jun 17 by johncharles |
£5 million ? Doesn't sound like nearly enough. How much is Theresa May willing to give the DUP to save her job ? |
Luckily the Buckingham Palace refurb has been ok'd by May's government at a cost of £369m. Meanwhile the Houses of Parliament refurb is estimated to cost between 4 to 6 BILLION POUNDS.... You couldn't make it up. | |
| Scooters, Tunes, Trainers and QPR. |
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| Latimer Road on 17:10 - Jun 17 with 2218 views | QPR_John |
| Latimer Road on 16:01 - Jun 17 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
When you say question do you mean about cladding
This has been asked about by Harriet Harman after Lakanal House
I'm sorry but you need to do a bit more research on this yourself before asking questions on what is already out there if you care to look.
Responsibility, would you not say that K&C and their leaders are all responsible if they are the ones in control of this council.
Do you think they should be removed from power in that council. [Post edited 17 Jun 2017 16:36]
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But again that is the point. I think it is fair to say most people do not have a data base of political quotes and articles. That cladding was dangerous and politicians have a duty to make facts such as that public. Of course those in charge are responsible and if you really want a league table more so as they are in charge. But these things did not happen in a vacuum and many must have known about it but chose to stay silent at least to the extent they did not publicise their concerns. Just googled Harriett Harman Lakanal House and no mention of flammable cladding | | | |
| Latimer Road on 17:15 - Jun 17 with 2207 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Latimer Road on 17:10 - Jun 17 by QPR_John |
But again that is the point. I think it is fair to say most people do not have a data base of political quotes and articles. That cladding was dangerous and politicians have a duty to make facts such as that public. Of course those in charge are responsible and if you really want a league table more so as they are in charge. But these things did not happen in a vacuum and many must have known about it but chose to stay silent at least to the extent they did not publicise their concerns. Just googled Harriett Harman Lakanal House and no mention of flammable cladding |
I don't know which article you have read but the cladding was the reason for fire climbing and spreading on that building .
You question if the opposition had questioned the government, they had. and as I said before they blocked changes. [Post edited 17 Jun 2017 17:24]
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| Latimer Road on 17:24 - Jun 17 with 2187 views | GroveR |
| Latimer Road on 10:41 - Jun 17 by smegma |
I miss that shop |
I remember going in there as a 12yr old asking for something or another. The guy behind the counter says 'no no no yoot, start at prince far I and work your way up' - best advice ever. |  | | |
| Latimer Road on 17:26 - Jun 17 with 2178 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
see my edit | |
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| Latimer Road on 17:34 - Jun 17 with 2143 views | QPR_John |
Don't want to labour the point but making the government aware is different from going public. Surely the election campaign was a heaven sent opportunity to make people aware of the problems. | | | |
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