| Brexit (again) 13:21 - Jul 17 with 6189 views | QPR_John |
If I or anybody else went to live in the USA or Australia or India or anywhere I would be subject to the laws of that country and the British courts could not interfere. Why does the EU demand that EU citizens living in this country have their rights protected by the EU when we leave. Nobody has suggested that citizens of non EU countries living here have their rights protected by their own governments. I am not really a political animal so could be missing something here so if somebody could explain |  | | |  |
| Brexit (again) on 22:41 - Jul 17 with 2072 views | QPR_John |
| Brexit (again) on 22:30 - Jul 17 by derbyhoop |
EU citizens in the UK have acquired rights due to their EU citizenship. Those rights are protected by the ECJ, as the final arbiter.
As part of the negotiations the UK could agree to a mutually acceptable position, but then change the rules post Brexit.EU citizens, who'd arrived in good faith and had acquired residency status would become 2nd class citizens in the UK. And with lesser rights than UK citizens in the EU.
Note the ECJ would only be involved on issues relating to citizenship. |
"2nd class citizens in the U.K."
I still do not understand and will happily be put right but I was under the impression any person given residency rights in the UK automatically gets the same rights under law to a British citizen. If EU citizens need the protection of the ECJ written into British law then why should USA citizens not be protected by the US courts, Canadians by the Canadian courts et al. | | | |
| Brexit (again) on 22:59 - Jul 17 with 2058 views | colinallcars |
| Brexit (again) on 22:41 - Jul 17 by QPR_John |
"2nd class citizens in the U.K."
I still do not understand and will happily be put right but I was under the impression any person given residency rights in the UK automatically gets the same rights under law to a British citizen. If EU citizens need the protection of the ECJ written into British law then why should USA citizens not be protected by the US courts, Canadians by the Canadian courts et al. |
That's exactly right. I think it's a matter of perception. I've met some EUcitizens who are understandably unnerved by the outcome of the referendum and scaremongering by some groups of people. I don't think in a million years the government would turn them into 2nd class citizens. |  | | |
| Brexit (again) on 06:26 - Jul 18 with 1988 views | Lblock |
| Brexit (again) on 22:59 - Jul 17 by colinallcars |
That's exactly right. I think it's a matter of perception. I've met some EUcitizens who are understandably unnerved by the outcome of the referendum and scaremongering by some groups of people. I don't think in a million years the government would turn them into 2nd class citizens. |
But then you'd be coming from a position where you don't label anyone pro-Brexit a jumped up, self centred, insular racist bigot........and that doesn't fit with the agenda
I really don't see too much changing in terms of residence for those already settled
I'm intrigued in respect of how attractive a deregulated UK economy will be to overseas investors, what the effect will be to our service sectors in terms of obstacles Merkels Army may put up and how strong Sterling will be especially if there's another Greece type situation in the future
As I say, five years time we'll know. If it's gone to ratshit then it'll be Bungles fault anyway |  |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| Brexit (again) on 10:59 - Jul 18 with 1913 views | CFW |
| Brexit (again) on 13:46 - Jul 17 by Brightonhoop |
Simple really. There are several million Brits living in the EU other states who enjoy protection from the state by way of law.
With millions who have moved to the UK in good faith these rights would be upheld it is not unreasonable to expect continued protection for all under laws we've become accustomed to, regardless of the leave vote.
Besides which, only a tyranical Government would seek to water down peoples rights, and the fact they dont want to reciprocate on very reasonable grounds stinks of a rotten government with malice against its own people and others in mind. It really is that simple.
Also without going through reams of Legislation on individual Acts, likely to take about 10 years to achieve through arliament, we've been told 99% of EU Law will be assimilated into UK Law anyway. Why they cant just get on and offer a decent reciprocal arrangement for all those living in the UK, and those Brits living in the EU speaks volumes of this Governments capacity for decent economic management. They are complete morons. Hammond, May, Johnsone, Fox and the other tw4t do not seem to have a brain cell between them. Meanwhile the infationary pressures growing, and their implictions for households in the UK are frankly frightening, whilst these lums re-arrange the deck chairs as the Titanic goes down.
It was the Tolpuddle weekender this weekend, who, without they're sacrifice there wouldn't be weekends, you'd be working 7 days a week, without holidays, certainly not paid holidays. Government never gave us these benefits, they had to be fought for, some paid with their lives.
Point being now the Government of the day is a tyrant, utterly incompetent, in open warfare at Cabinet level and couldn't run a bath, let alone negotiations to Leave the EU. UK desperatrly needs a new Government that can negotiate a Leave deal that does least economic harm to the UK, and only Corbyn can do that. The Tories are a shambles that have allowed their rabid ultra right to wreak havoc not just in the Tory arty but across the UK now demanding a hard brexit without any consideration to the harm that will be done, and is being done, to the economy.
Rant over. |
I usually never voice an opinion in matters relating to politics but sorry mate - listen to yourself. Just read again what you have said, think about it and then re-write. | | | |
| Brexit (again) on 16:07 - Jul 18 with 1858 views | Cliff |
just read the thread and rather than reply individually to a number of posts i thought I'd put my thoughts into just one.
Someone said something along the lines of if they reintroduce something like the death penalty here it would be unfair for EU citizens to say "I would face it back home, so I shouldn't face it here". That would indeed be wrong but that's not what the EU are saying, they are saying that EU citizens living in the UK should have the same rights as UK citizens, what they are worried about is that the UK are talking about "similar" rights, not the same and won't guarantee how long these similar rights will last, i.e. promise one thing and then change the rules and have it upheld by a British court. Not this isn't what you were saying above, if the death penalty were introduced for ALL citizens then it would be fair, what the EU are worried about is laws being introduced that differentiate between UK and EU citizens that stay, so in this case a better analogy would be if the death sentence were reintroduced but ONLY for EU citizens. The EU want guarantees that this sort of thing won't happen.
Someone said it shouldn't matter if people have residency rights, possibly true I don't know if that gives them full rights after Brexit, but the problem is at the moment there are people who have been living here for decades who don't have residency papers because they weren't needed under the free movement scheme that was prt of EU membership. So this would only be relevant if residency rights were equivalent to full UK rights AND all EU citizens currently living in the EU were grated automatic residency AND it was guaranteed that these rights couldn't be removed at a later date |  | | |
| Brexit (again) on 16:40 - Jul 18 with 1838 views | Brightonhoop |
| Brexit (again) on 10:59 - Jul 18 by CFW |
I usually never voice an opinion in matters relating to politics but sorry mate - listen to yourself. Just read again what you have said, think about it and then re-write. |
Sounds like 100 lines at school.
I stand by what I've said.
Cliff above in his post has put it very succinctly, EU do not trust UK Gov to not shaft EU citz post Brexit. Can't think why with such upstanding types in Cabinet like Fox, Johnson, May, Davis.....et al. Would you buy a second hand car off any of them? They've been rumbled, bunch of Spivs reflecting terribly on UKs international standing. |  | | |
| Brexit (again) on 16:47 - Jul 18 with 1832 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Brexit (again) on 19:24 - Jul 17 by Lblock |
A lot of hyperbole and one sided slant on things
The world hasn't fallen in yet
If anyone thinks we'll get a fair deal out of the EU then they're mad. Why would they? It'd be the green light for others to leave the failed experiment behind and crack on. I do however think the UK is strong enough and well placed enough as a service provider, entertainer, carer and sayer of knowledge etc to smash through it
Five years time we'll know and hopefully Merkels club will continue to crumble |
Fair enough with most of that, if that's what you believe.
But why wish ill on the EU? Why can't you hope the EU prospers and the UK does too? This is the sort of sh!t I can't get my head round.
Having said that, if you think we'll know in 5 years, you're in dreamland. 20 or 30 years will be the time when a judgement can properly be made. In 5 years it might look terrible, in 20 it might look wise. Or vice versa. [Post edited 18 Jul 2017 16:50]
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| Brexit (again) on 16:50 - Jul 18 with 1822 views | Brightonhoop |
| Brexit (again) on 16:47 - Jul 18 by Antti_Heinola |
Fair enough with most of that, if that's what you believe.
But why wish ill on the EU? Why can't you hope the EU prospers and the UK does too? This is the sort of sh!t I can't get my head round.
Having said that, if you think we'll know in 5 years, you're in dreamland. 20 or 30 years will be the time when a judgement can properly be made. In 5 years it might look terrible, in 20 it might look wise. Or vice versa. [Post edited 18 Jul 2017 16:50]
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Haters. That is all. | | | |
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| Brexit (again) on 17:23 - Jul 18 with 1795 views | QPR_John |
| Brexit (again) on 16:40 - Jul 18 by Brightonhoop |
Sounds like 100 lines at school.
I stand by what I've said.
Cliff above in his post has put it very succinctly, EU do not trust UK Gov to not shaft EU citz post Brexit. Can't think why with such upstanding types in Cabinet like Fox, Johnson, May, Davis.....et al. Would you buy a second hand car off any of them? They've been rumbled, bunch of Spivs reflecting terribly on UKs international standing. |
Why should the USA government trust the British governement, why should any government trust the British government to protects their citizens. Maybe unlike any other country in the world the British government should give non British citizens living here the right to be protected in law by their own governments.
Where does this idea come from EU good Britain bad. Why do people here and the EU think they can do no wrong, the great protectors of human rights. The arrogance of the EU in thinking Britain is a banana republic with no better human rights than North Korea for example that they need to protect their citizens is really astounding
Edited: out of interest what standing in International law does the phrase EU citizen have [Post edited 18 Jul 2017 17:59]
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| Brexit (again) on 18:13 - Jul 18 with 1770 views | CFW |
| Brexit (again) on 16:40 - Jul 18 by Brightonhoop |
Sounds like 100 lines at school.
I stand by what I've said.
Cliff above in his post has put it very succinctly, EU do not trust UK Gov to not shaft EU citz post Brexit. Can't think why with such upstanding types in Cabinet like Fox, Johnson, May, Davis.....et al. Would you buy a second hand car off any of them? They've been rumbled, bunch of Spivs reflecting terribly on UKs international standing. |
Why not look at your shadow cabinet:-
Corbin - hated only a short while ago and was wanted out by just about every Labour supporter except the Unions who tell him what to say and do. Promised the earth in the lead up to the election without a cat's chance in hell of ever delivering. Already going back on the Student loan promise. Lives in £700,000 house with a £1.2 mil pension pot. Stands up at a pop festival and tells everyone he is going to be PM in six months.
Dep Leader - Tom Watson - given half a million quid by Max Mosley - I rest my case.
Dep Sec of State - Emily Thornberry - lives in a 2.9 mil house and has other property worth 1.2 million.
Personally - I do not have a problem with these people's wealth but do not tell me they are goo, honest people and all the Tory's are evil.
Look back at your previous leader Mr Blair - should be in prison and is worth over £30 million pounds. | | | |
| Brexit (again) on 19:52 - Jul 18 with 1737 views | Brightonhoop |
| Brexit (again) on 18:13 - Jul 18 by CFW |
Why not look at your shadow cabinet:-
Corbin - hated only a short while ago and was wanted out by just about every Labour supporter except the Unions who tell him what to say and do. Promised the earth in the lead up to the election without a cat's chance in hell of ever delivering. Already going back on the Student loan promise. Lives in £700,000 house with a £1.2 mil pension pot. Stands up at a pop festival and tells everyone he is going to be PM in six months.
Dep Leader - Tom Watson - given half a million quid by Max Mosley - I rest my case.
Dep Sec of State - Emily Thornberry - lives in a 2.9 mil house and has other property worth 1.2 million.
Personally - I do not have a problem with these people's wealth but do not tell me they are goo, honest people and all the Tory's are evil.
Look back at your previous leader Mr Blair - should be in prison and is worth over £30 million pounds. |
Totally smacks of sour grapes and envy based on others property wealth which has grown out of slums largely, over the last 3 decades.
Corbyn is the only Leader who has stated he will consider bringing a case against Blair. May has not. | | | |
| Brexit (again) on 08:52 - Jul 19 with 1694 views | TacticalR |
There's not much point in arguing with the Boiled Frogs of Brexit.
It's much more instructive to observe some of the infighting that's going on within the Brexit camp. In Tim Shipman's history of the Brexit campaign Dominic Cummings appears on almost every page. This is Douglas Carswell's assessment of Cummings' importance to the Brexit campaign:
'There were three people who if they hadn't been born or didn't exist, or weren't central in the referendum campaign, it means we would have lost. Number one is Dominic Cummings, number two is Matthew Elliott, and number three is Daniel Hannan. Every single other person played an important role, but those three were vital.'
Tim Shipman, All Out War - How Brexit Sank Britain's Political Class, (2016)
However, it seems from yesterday's Independent that even Cummings is getting cold feet on Brexit:
'Mr Cummings, who masterminded the claim that Brexit could fund the NHS to the tune of £350m a week, said earlier this month that there was a chance that leaving the EU would turn out to be an "error" following a decision by "morons" in Government to withdraw from the European atomic energy community, Euratom.'
Perhaps it is the sight of David Davis getting punched, kicked and beaten day after day in Brussels that has become too much for Cummings? Or is this just an opportunity to distance himself from the consequences of Brexit?
David Davis is as 'thick as mince' says Vote Leave chief
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-thick-as-mince-lazy-as
Also astonishing are some of the recent tirades against Brexit in the FT:
Britain is incapable of managing Brexit (FT, July 13th, 2017)
https://www.ft.com/content/bf0025aa-6720-11e7-8526-7b38dcaef614
Meanwhile since the Brexit vote, Le Pen has lost in France, Hungary and Poland (for all their nationalist noises) are still ensconced in the EU, while last week Japan struck a new trade deal with the EU.
The infighting over Brexit within the Tory Party also reveals something interesting. The Brexit vote was supposed to lance the European boil and reunite the Tories. But that hasn't happened, which suggests that the European discussion was never really just about Europe. If I may quote myself:
'The European discussion within the Tory Party has always been ferocious because it is really a debate about how to manage Britain's decline.'
Brexit .... My thoughts... by JacksDad 16 Jun 2016 11:07The one thing I am certain of re this vote is that no-one knows for sure what the repercussions economically will be if we pull out. If you listen to the experts it will be better if we stay in, however its all unconvincing. My issue is that after 10 years of Austerity, the services in this country have been cut to the bone, that is services that are needed by us all - not just Immigrants/benefit spongers. We are not in a position to afford the enormous gamble if it all goes t1ts up. I am taking my lead from Ray Winston and gambling responsibly and staying in. If we ever get to situation when everything is adequately funded and horrible 0 hours contracts were abolished ... then maybe it might be worth the risk to pull out. But to do it now is a massive gamble which we just cannot afford to lose.
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| Brexit (again) on 10:14 - Jul 19 with 1656 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Brexit (again) on 18:13 - Jul 18 by CFW |
Why not look at your shadow cabinet:-
Corbin - hated only a short while ago and was wanted out by just about every Labour supporter except the Unions who tell him what to say and do. Promised the earth in the lead up to the election without a cat's chance in hell of ever delivering. Already going back on the Student loan promise. Lives in £700,000 house with a £1.2 mil pension pot. Stands up at a pop festival and tells everyone he is going to be PM in six months.
Dep Leader - Tom Watson - given half a million quid by Max Mosley - I rest my case.
Dep Sec of State - Emily Thornberry - lives in a 2.9 mil house and has other property worth 1.2 million.
Personally - I do not have a problem with these people's wealth but do not tell me they are goo, honest people and all the Tory's are evil.
Look back at your previous leader Mr Blair - should be in prison and is worth over £30 million pounds. |
How was Corbyn hated and wanted out by just about every labour supporter when he was voted in my a big majority not once, but twice?
A 700,000 house in London is basically a 2 bedroom flat, by the way. | |
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| Brexit (again) on 12:01 - Jul 19 with 1607 views | TacticalR |
On housing, there is an interesting statistic in Dorling's book:
'By 2013 it was revealed that up to a third of all council homes that had been purchased under the 'right-to-buy' had been sold on to just a few rich landlords. Take, for instance, Ian Gow, who was the minister who presided over the introduction of Thatcher's 'right-to-buy' scheme. His son is now a housing tycoon, owning more than forty ex-council flats in one London estate alone. As one commentator remarked, 'You couldn't make it up. The family of one of the Tory ministers who oversaw "right-to-buy" ends up owning swathes of ex-council homes.''
Danny Dorling, All that is Solid, How the Great Housing Disaster Defines Our Times, (2014)
One of the largest landlord recipients of housing benefit income is Farage loyalist Andrew Charalambous:
Ukip housing spokesman Andrew Charalambous earns £800,000 — in housing benefit
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britains-wealthiest-private-landl | |
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| Brexit (again) on 13:29 - Jul 19 with 1568 views | QPR_Jim |
| Brexit (again) on 17:23 - Jul 18 by QPR_John |
Why should the USA government trust the British governement, why should any government trust the British government to protects their citizens. Maybe unlike any other country in the world the British government should give non British citizens living here the right to be protected in law by their own governments.
Where does this idea come from EU good Britain bad. Why do people here and the EU think they can do no wrong, the great protectors of human rights. The arrogance of the EU in thinking Britain is a banana republic with no better human rights than North Korea for example that they need to protect their citizens is really astounding
Edited: out of interest what standing in International law does the phrase EU citizen have [Post edited 18 Jul 2017 17:59]
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"Where does this idea come from EU good Britain bad" - From what I can see only brexiteers are keen to boil this down to a fight of good verses bad, that's why people make statements about wanting the EU to fail as they see it as the opposition. There's many more who realise that a failing EU would have human consequences to those that live within it and so are less keen for this to happen and would rather find a mutually advantageous position for which they are labelled as pro EU and anti-British by people like yourself.
"Why should the USA government trust the British government, why should any government trust the British government to protects their citizens." - Currently I think we do have trust with the USA despite their betrayal of that trust over their leaks regarding the Manchester attack but that won't continue for long with that clown trump in charge. There's probably lots of departments within government that trust and have understandings with their counterparts in foreign governments. Once the trust has gone what's left? Do we wish to remove any trust and respect we have with other countries in the process of the brexit negotiations and for what purpose?
"The arrogance of the EU in thinking Britain is a banana republic with no better human rights than North Korea for example that they need to protect their citizens is really astounding" - Ignoring the hyperbole for a second I think there's a general mistrust for the current government as they strive and even boast about "cutting red tape". It's not just the EU that sees that as a potential way of reducing the rights of workers, human rights and generally eroding our quality of life to make things easier for trade deals and businesses. |  | | |
| Brexit (again) on 14:01 - Jul 19 with 1541 views | CFW |
| Brexit (again) on 10:14 - Jul 19 by Antti_Heinola |
How was Corbyn hated and wanted out by just about every labour supporter when he was voted in my a big majority not once, but twice?
A 700,000 house in London is basically a 2 bedroom flat, by the way. |
Edit Labour Supporter for other Labour MP's. Accept point on London house prices but there are still cheaper places in London to live. Still with his massive pension pot should not be an issue for him. | | | |
| Brexit (again) on 14:23 - Jul 19 with 1527 views | hopphoops |
I don't believe they will get even close to any sort of deal in two years, not even a transition deal. The UK side has no political leeway and woefully inadequate capacity. There will be default hard Brexit, some sort of great repeal fudge to paper over it all, and a generation of carnage.
Get yourself or your kids into law school a.s.a.p. As always the lawyers will be the only beneficiaries. |  |
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| Brexit (again) on 15:14 - Jul 19 with 1483 views | QPR_John |
| Brexit (again) on 13:29 - Jul 19 by QPR_Jim |
"Where does this idea come from EU good Britain bad" - From what I can see only brexiteers are keen to boil this down to a fight of good verses bad, that's why people make statements about wanting the EU to fail as they see it as the opposition. There's many more who realise that a failing EU would have human consequences to those that live within it and so are less keen for this to happen and would rather find a mutually advantageous position for which they are labelled as pro EU and anti-British by people like yourself.
"Why should the USA government trust the British government, why should any government trust the British government to protects their citizens." - Currently I think we do have trust with the USA despite their betrayal of that trust over their leaks regarding the Manchester attack but that won't continue for long with that clown trump in charge. There's probably lots of departments within government that trust and have understandings with their counterparts in foreign governments. Once the trust has gone what's left? Do we wish to remove any trust and respect we have with other countries in the process of the brexit negotiations and for what purpose?
"The arrogance of the EU in thinking Britain is a banana republic with no better human rights than North Korea for example that they need to protect their citizens is really astounding" - Ignoring the hyperbole for a second I think there's a general mistrust for the current government as they strive and even boast about "cutting red tape". It's not just the EU that sees that as a potential way of reducing the rights of workers, human rights and generally eroding our quality of life to make things easier for trade deals and businesses. |
I have never suggested that being pro EU equates to being anti British. However I rarely hear those that are pro EU ever suggest the British position might have merit in some areas. Even if there is some criticism it always seems to be along the lines of "The EU can be reformed but............."
"I think there's a general mistrust for the current government......"
Then they will be kicked out as was nearly the case a few weeks ago unlike the case should anybody mistrust Brussels. Of course I could be wrong and what is really being said is that the British public cannot be trusted to elect the right sort of government and need protecting. | | | |
| Brexit (again) on 15:48 - Jul 19 with 1456 views | QPR_Jim |
| Brexit (again) on 15:14 - Jul 19 by QPR_John |
I have never suggested that being pro EU equates to being anti British. However I rarely hear those that are pro EU ever suggest the British position might have merit in some areas. Even if there is some criticism it always seems to be along the lines of "The EU can be reformed but............."
"I think there's a general mistrust for the current government......"
Then they will be kicked out as was nearly the case a few weeks ago unlike the case should anybody mistrust Brussels. Of course I could be wrong and what is really being said is that the British public cannot be trusted to elect the right sort of government and need protecting. |
Well you claimed people were saying EU good and Britain bad, show me where anybody has said that and I will rescind my comment. As I see it anything remotely condemning the way the government has dealt with the situation is taken as being inherently pro EU and therefore anti-British. Complete madness.
Also nobody is saying that the British public need protecting *there you go again assuming a comment is somehow anti-British ;-)* It just so happens that currently we're very divided politically 48% of people didn't vote for Brexit yet here we are, there would be the same divide if the result was the other way round with 48% leave if remainers then saying you had you're chance we're staying in now regardless.
The current government is a minority government propped up by another party and Labour got a bigger share than in 2005 but don't have a mandate. Back then politics seemed to be much more diverse but in our polarised times it seems impossible for anyone to get a decent majority. So as a result whatever happens, that includes Labour winning power, we appear to be set for a higher than usual proportion of the population to be unhappy with any given result. So the discontent has nothing to do with the EU or at least that's how I see it anyway. | | | |
| Brexit (again) on 16:18 - Jul 19 with 1437 views | QPR_John |
| Brexit (again) on 15:48 - Jul 19 by QPR_Jim |
Well you claimed people were saying EU good and Britain bad, show me where anybody has said that and I will rescind my comment. As I see it anything remotely condemning the way the government has dealt with the situation is taken as being inherently pro EU and therefore anti-British. Complete madness.
Also nobody is saying that the British public need protecting *there you go again assuming a comment is somehow anti-British ;-)* It just so happens that currently we're very divided politically 48% of people didn't vote for Brexit yet here we are, there would be the same divide if the result was the other way round with 48% leave if remainers then saying you had you're chance we're staying in now regardless.
The current government is a minority government propped up by another party and Labour got a bigger share than in 2005 but don't have a mandate. Back then politics seemed to be much more diverse but in our polarised times it seems impossible for anyone to get a decent majority. So as a result whatever happens, that includes Labour winning power, we appear to be set for a higher than usual proportion of the population to be unhappy with any given result. So the discontent has nothing to do with the EU or at least that's how I see it anyway. |
"*there you go again assuming a comment is somehow anti-British ;-)*"
You've got it wrong again. Why assume I am saying something is anti British. The statement in question refers to those that think they know better than others not that they are anti British. | | | |
| Brexit (again) on 05:31 - Jul 20 with 1340 views | PlanetHonneywood |
Good job the football season is only a few weeks away to unite us all again!
And when it does, we'll enjoy ten months of unparalleled harmony, as we drop the in/out for the up/down debate.
What could possibly go wrong? |  |
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