| End of the combustion engine 13:15 - Jul 26 with 3397 views | loftboy |
So we have 25 years to get organised with charging points etc, anyone know how this will affect oil prices etc, obviously electricity has to be made from somewhere, but surely the all powerful oil barons are going to have their noses put out of joint. |  |
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| End of the combustion engine on 11:51 - Jul 27 with 1108 views | FDC |
| End of the combustion engine on 08:44 - Jul 27 by izlingtonhoop |
Yep. You can't see the filth pumped out by 9 million internal combustion engines. So let's keep it that way.
Actually you can. Travel on what is now the south London Overground loop and look back at town, you'll see a terrifying orange haze... |
You can bloody taste it too. I'm in London this week, can't believe how grim the air is. |  | | |
| End of the combustion engine on 12:38 - Jul 27 with 1066 views | Tonto |
| End of the combustion engine on 16:55 - Jul 26 by essextaxiboy |
Just one more thing I am glad that I wont be around to witness, I cant imagine an electric car with the soul of an E Type or a Mustang , not to mention bikes.
Purely functional souped up hoovers driving a tin box with seats ..no thanks ... |
I appreciate everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I do find this slightly odd...
Electric cars out accelerate combustion engine cars.
Electric cars look virtually identical to combustion engine cars
Electric cars contain all the same "mod cons" as combustion engine cars.
All that's missing is the throbbing/noise and of course the pollution. You could quite feasibly put an electric engine in the body of an e-type or mustang.
I suppose you never bought CDs or DVDs because they are "soulless" compared to vinyl and VHS? |  |
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| End of the combustion engine on 13:07 - Jul 27 with 1045 views | WrightUp5hit___ |
| End of the combustion engine on 12:38 - Jul 27 by Tonto |
I appreciate everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I do find this slightly odd...
Electric cars out accelerate combustion engine cars.
Electric cars look virtually identical to combustion engine cars
Electric cars contain all the same "mod cons" as combustion engine cars.
All that's missing is the throbbing/noise and of course the pollution. You could quite feasibly put an electric engine in the body of an e-type or mustang.
I suppose you never bought CDs or DVDs because they are "soulless" compared to vinyl and VHS? |
Of course, that's why Formula E is so much more popular than Formula One.
Perhaps a visit to see a Top Fuel (nitro methanol fuelled) dragster would help explain the visceral effect of the internal combustion engine.
Over the years I have driven and owned many "performance" cars but now my daily drive is a hybrid, but would love a track day or weekend car of the internal combustion nature. |  | | |
| End of the combustion engine on 13:09 - Jul 27 with 1044 views | R_from_afar |
While this move is good news, I have to agree it's way too far away. Irreparable damage will soon have been done and I mean in terms of making this planet very difficult for us to live on.
That said, it will take a huge amount of effort and investment to get everyone driving electric. Coincidentally, I just completed my second year of driving an electric vehicle and it is very liberating to be able to fuel your car at home.
A huge leap forward could be achieved if people could be given access to all the various charging networks via just one card or account. There can be issues with this currently.
Weaning this country off fossil fuels is not just an environmental thing, it's a risk management issue too. In an increasingly volatile world, we need to get to the point where we are self sufficient in energy and Great Britain is in a great position to achieve this. The Swansea Bay tidal scheme, for example, if fully implemented, could produce almost as much energy as Hinckley C, round the clock, more reliably (nuclear plants need to be shut down for refuelling and maintenance, not to mention the greater likelihood of safety related shutdowns) and much more cheaply.
We have to get our power from somewhere so it might have to be tidal plants, solar panels and wind turbines, but technology is really taking off and we now have powerful floating wind turbines and solar panels (putting them on reservoirs reduces evaporation too). We need to - finally - get serious about using energy more sensibly, e.g. energy conservation and insulation.
Don't forget that fossil fuels will eventually run out. We're burning through oil at the rate of 1000 barrels a second (yes, a second). The easily extracted oil has mostly gone and that leaves the trickier stuff which costs more to get at and which requires more energy to extract it. It can't last for ever and the same goes for gas. Added to that, leaked documents have revealed that the Saudis have been overstating their oil reserves; to be honest, most producing nations have. No one has an accurate picture of how much is left.
Finally, electric cars can be thrilling. They are very quick - mine is not a fancy one yet it gets to 60 in 7.8 seconds and is quicker to 40 than a BMW M4 - and the sensation of accelerating rapidly without the engine noise is exhilarating, or scary! Have you seen the i8? What a wonderful looking thing.
They are getting more affordable too. The new Renault Zoe costs £18k to buy and about £230/month to lease. Bear in mind it is only going to cost you about 2p a mile to run - that's a big saving.
RFA
Interesting times. |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| End of the combustion engine on 13:18 - Jul 27 with 1028 views | blacky200 |
| End of the combustion engine on 12:38 - Jul 27 by Tonto |
I appreciate everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I do find this slightly odd...
Electric cars out accelerate combustion engine cars.
Electric cars look virtually identical to combustion engine cars
Electric cars contain all the same "mod cons" as combustion engine cars.
All that's missing is the throbbing/noise and of course the pollution. You could quite feasibly put an electric engine in the body of an e-type or mustang.
I suppose you never bought CDs or DVDs because they are "soulless" compared to vinyl and VHS? |
Its not the only thing missing. How about usable range. Out of the latest electric cars only a few have a range of more than a 100 miles.
At the moment it is cheap to run an electric car but as more people switch do you honestly think that the government is not going to up the taxes on them? How are the government going to reclaim all the tax they currently get from petrol or diesel (currently around 57 p per litre).
I'm not against cleaner cars, motorcycles etc but I've yet to hear a clear strategy about how this utopian future is going to be implemented and how we are going to be able to supply all this cheap electricity that has been produced cleanly. [Post edited 27 Jul 2017 13:26]
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| End of the combustion engine on 13:23 - Jul 27 with 1022 views | loftboy |
| End of the combustion engine on 08:37 - Jul 27 by blacky200 |
Can't wait to see our countryside full of wind turbines, our tidal waterways full of floats and solar panels everywhere that we'll need to generate the "clean" energy needed for the 9 million cars currently on our roads. |
I would rather look at wind turbines than miles and miles of pylons that we currently see in the countryside and that's from someone who's a climate change denyer!! | |
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| End of the combustion engine on 13:27 - Jul 27 with 1015 views | blacky200 |
| End of the combustion engine on 13:23 - Jul 27 by loftboy |
I would rather look at wind turbines than miles and miles of pylons that we currently see in the countryside and that's from someone who's a climate change denyer!! |
Yes but we will get fields of turbines as well as the pylons  | | | |
| End of the combustion engine on 13:29 - Jul 27 with 1013 views | Maggsinho |
| End of the combustion engine on 13:18 - Jul 27 by blacky200 |
Its not the only thing missing. How about usable range. Out of the latest electric cars only a few have a range of more than a 100 miles.
At the moment it is cheap to run an electric car but as more people switch do you honestly think that the government is not going to up the taxes on them? How are the government going to reclaim all the tax they currently get from petrol or diesel (currently around 57 p per litre).
I'm not against cleaner cars, motorcycles etc but I've yet to hear a clear strategy about how this utopian future is going to be implemented and how we are going to be able to supply all this cheap electricity that has been produced cleanly. [Post edited 27 Jul 2017 13:26]
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That will improve though as battery technology gets better and through more advanced infrastructure - eg induction charging. Range will become a real selling point so I would imagine as it becomes more and more mainstream the car companies will invest more and more in the technology.
Besides IIRC the average daily distance traveled is something like 20 miles so it needn't be a huge issue for the average driver. |  | | |
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| End of the combustion engine on 13:32 - Jul 27 with 1009 views | TheBlob |
Safety fears over "silent" electric cars which will creep up on unsuspecting pedestrians prompted the idea of audio mimicking the sound of your favourite engine.All is not lost.
Btw power generation by whatever means creates waste heat.
Harnessing tidal power slows the rotation of the earth. |  |
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| End of the combustion engine on 13:37 - Jul 27 with 996 views | TheBlob |
| End of the combustion engine on 14:09 - Jul 26 by hubble |
Indeed 'electricity has to be made from somewhere' - and to make it from oil is now antiquated technology. We have an unlimited, abundant supply - solar, wind, wave, take your pick - and the cost of generating it from such methods is dropping all the time. And that's not even mentioning other tech, some wilfully ignored or suppressed by those with vested interests. Tesla discovered you could basically get free energy from the air - in other words the energy field that exists all around us. Unfortunately for Nikola, others at the time had invested heavily in providing cabling to and from power stations - and subsequently this genius died in obscurity.
Good times ahead though for the human race if we can truly wean ourselves off fossil fuels and the entire petrodollar system that has so blighted our planet - both environmentally and sociologically. We also clearly need to avoid the nuclear option, surely Fukushima has proved that, if nothing else. |
I think you'll find Fukishima was due in part to the failure of the backup pump diesel generators which were inundated by the tsunami. | |
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| End of the combustion engine on 15:03 - Jul 27 with 960 views | kensalriser |
Fuel cell cars are also a reality now. The only drawback is that there aren't enough refuelling points, but that's a simple infrastructure problem. |  |
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| End of the combustion engine on 20:21 - Jul 27 with 889 views | SimonJames |
In 25 years I'll have just about saved up enough for a new Tesla... |  |
| 100% of people who drink water will die. |
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| End of the combustion engine on 12:36 - Jul 28 with 805 views | R_from_afar |
| End of the combustion engine on 13:32 - Jul 27 by TheBlob |
Safety fears over "silent" electric cars which will creep up on unsuspecting pedestrians prompted the idea of audio mimicking the sound of your favourite engine.All is not lost.
Btw power generation by whatever means creates waste heat.
Harnessing tidal power slows the rotation of the earth. |
Nice to see you back on here!
Your comment about the rotation of the earth had me worried so I investigated. It turns out its a myth (thank goodness). Here's what David MacKay FRS, Regius Professor of Engineering at the University of Cambridge and formerly Chief Scientific Advisor to the Department of Energy and Climate Change, says about it:
Mythconceptions
Tidal power, while clean and green, should not be called renew-
able. Extracting power from the tides slows down the earth’s
rotation. We definitely can’t use tidal power long-term.
False. The natural tides already slow down the earth’s rotation. The
natural rotational energy loss is roughly 3 TW (Shepherd, 2003). Thanks to
natural tidal friction, each century, the day gets longer by 2.3 milliseconds.
Many tidal energy extraction systems are just extracting energy that would
have been lost anyway in friction. But even if we doubled the power ex-
tracted from the earth—moon system, tidal energy would still last more
than a billion years.
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| End of the combustion engine on 13:13 - Jul 28 with 776 views | TheBlob |
| End of the combustion engine on 12:36 - Jul 28 by R_from_afar |
Nice to see you back on here!
Your comment about the rotation of the earth had me worried so I investigated. It turns out its a myth (thank goodness). Here's what David MacKay FRS, Regius Professor of Engineering at the University of Cambridge and formerly Chief Scientific Advisor to the Department of Energy and Climate Change, says about it:
Mythconceptions
Tidal power, while clean and green, should not be called renew-
able. Extracting power from the tides slows down the earth’s
rotation. We definitely can’t use tidal power long-term.
False. The natural tides already slow down the earth’s rotation. The
natural rotational energy loss is roughly 3 TW (Shepherd, 2003). Thanks to
natural tidal friction, each century, the day gets longer by 2.3 milliseconds.
Many tidal energy extraction systems are just extracting energy that would
have been lost anyway in friction. But even if we doubled the power ex-
tracted from the earth—moon system, tidal energy would still last more
than a billion years.
RFA |
I'm not back on here - I'm a hologram.
Took you long enough to bite on what was a bit of a wind-up. 
However....
In principle, yes, the ultimate source of energy for a tidal power plant is Earth's rotational energy, so these plants are slowing down the Earth's rotation. By conservation of angular momentum, that means they are pushing the Moon further away as well, although I wouldn't phrase it as being due to "waves in the gravitational field," as that expression suggests a different phenomenon.
The Earth's rotational kinetic energy is about 1029
J, and the world uses something like 1022
J/year, so you could power the entire world for millions of years before you'd run out of rotational energy.
To answer a numerical question, you should work out the rotational kinetic energy of the Earth now, and also when the day is 25 hours long. The difference between those is the total energy required. The way to figure out the rotational kinetic energy is 12Iω2
. Here I is the Earth's moment of inertia, which is about 0.4MR2 where M and R are Earth's mass and radius. ω is the Earth's rotation rate in radians per second -- that is, 2π over the time for one rotation .
(that's enough pseudo science Blob) [Post edited 28 Jul 2017 13:48]
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| End of the combustion engine on 13:26 - Jul 28 with 766 views | TheBlob |
| End of the combustion engine on 13:13 - Jul 28 by TheBlob |
I'm not back on here - I'm a hologram.
Took you long enough to bite on what was a bit of a wind-up.
However....
In principle, yes, the ultimate source of energy for a tidal power plant is Earth's rotational energy, so these plants are slowing down the Earth's rotation. By conservation of angular momentum, that means they are pushing the Moon further away as well, although I wouldn't phrase it as being due to "waves in the gravitational field," as that expression suggests a different phenomenon.
The Earth's rotational kinetic energy is about 1029
J, and the world uses something like 1022
J/year, so you could power the entire world for millions of years before you'd run out of rotational energy.
To answer a numerical question, you should work out the rotational kinetic energy of the Earth now, and also when the day is 25 hours long. The difference between those is the total energy required. The way to figure out the rotational kinetic energy is 12Iω2
. Here I is the Earth's moment of inertia, which is about 0.4MR2 where M and R are Earth's mass and radius. ω is the Earth's rotation rate in radians per second -- that is, 2π over the time for one rotation .
(that's enough pseudo science Blob) [Post edited 28 Jul 2017 13:48]
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And on a different tack I'm having some chips fried entirely by solar power. | |
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| End of the combustion engine on 15:30 - Jul 28 with 725 views | hubble |
| End of the combustion engine on 13:37 - Jul 27 by TheBlob |
I think you'll find Fukishima was due in part to the failure of the backup pump diesel generators which were inundated by the tsunami. |
I was talking about the various causes of the disaster, I'm talking about the consequences. Which are ongoing and under-reported - or completely igniored - by the media.
From earlier this year:
"Radiation at highest level since meltdown"
"This catastrophe that is ongoing is nearly six years old at this point. The fuel, the melted cores have been missing an action. TEPCO doesn’t know where they are; the Japanese government doesn’t know where they are; nobody knows where they are."
Full article - worth a read: https://www.rt.com/op-edge/376607-leakage-radiation-fukushima-japan/
Also just received and email about it from campaigning organisation the Sum of Us:
"The Fukushima disaster keeps unfolding.
Tens of thousands of lives lost. Hundreds of thousands evacuated from their homes. An environment devastated by radiation -- and now, TEPCO wants to dump hundreds of thousands of tonnes of radioactive water into the Pacific Ocean.
TEPCO is the energy giant who failed to meet the basic safety requirements that might have prevented the Fukushima Daichii emergency generators from failing when the tsunami hit in 2011.
It goes without saying: the consequences of dumping more nuclear waste into the marine ecosystem would be catastrophic.
But it’s not too late to stop this impending ecocide: the Japanese government still needs to give TEPCO the green light.
After the Fukushima disaster, the Japanese government has been under constant pressure from local residents. Now, with support from around the world, we can help shine a spotlight and plead with them to stop TEPCO’s dangerous plans."
If you're of a petitioning frame of mind, this one is here: https://actions.sumofus.org/a/japan-stop-tepco-dumping-nuclear-waste-in-the-paci
So my point is that nuclear is simply too dangerous - and way too expensive - particularly when you factor in the clean up/storage down the line costs which are huge - to base future power supplies on. |  | | |
| End of the combustion engine on 08:32 - Jul 29 with 672 views | RangersDave |
Whilst I think the premise is laudable there is no suggestion of big smokey lgv's being removed from out roads, or diesel locomotives from our railways.
Also what about the combustion engine vehicles using our roads from Jonny foreigner land every day free of charge.
What about ships that use our ports? Anyone see the pollution they chuck out itn whatever show it was a few weeks ago? Truly frightening.
Then, add to that, will the uk actually right the world by this measure? Easy answer...... no.
Get the Indians and Chinese to do it , and to stop using coal fired power stations then it would help, but no one in the west is willing to give them 'clean burn' technology.
Ergo, do we really , truly care? Or are we spouting platitudes?
Try seeing clearly down any street in Beijing in daylight hours, and getting breathless just leaving your hotel to literally cross the street. This is where the problem lies, not Blighty.
True we have a problem, and 'could' deal with it if there was a will. But there isn't. It will cost too much, raise questions in my post above, and we, as cheap skates in general, won't pay for it. |  |
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| End of the combustion engine on 18:21 - Jul 30 with 574 views | Juzzie |
I read a few years ago that all the recycling/anti-pollution efforts we make in tne UK over the course of one year is undone by the Chinese in just three days.
With regards to the car ban, lets not forget its a ban on new cars, not an overall ban. There will still be petrol/diesel cars being driven for anotner 15-20 years thereafter. Even if its a diminishing scale it will still have an impact so it'll be 45+ years before they're almost gone. |  | | |
| End of the combustion engine on 22:41 - Jul 30 with 540 views | essextaxiboy |
| End of the combustion engine on 12:38 - Jul 27 by Tonto |
I appreciate everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I do find this slightly odd...
Electric cars out accelerate combustion engine cars.
Electric cars look virtually identical to combustion engine cars
Electric cars contain all the same "mod cons" as combustion engine cars.
All that's missing is the throbbing/noise and of course the pollution. You could quite feasibly put an electric engine in the body of an e-type or mustang.
I suppose you never bought CDs or DVDs because they are "soulless" compared to vinyl and VHS? |
Loads of music lovers prefer vinyl to with its imperfection than sterile perfect digital .
The E Type has a straight six or V12 petrol engine not an electric motor .A Mustang has a V8 petrol.engine not something by Electrolux . Its not about speed or"gadgets" its about character. The owner of a local.cab firm.has a few bob and has a Tesla at the moment .Its prob worth 80k ? TBH it looks like something out of a Chinese Christmas cracker . Some drivers have had a drive and tell me how.quick it is , as if that was all important or some engineering feat of genius. .
There seems.to.be competion amongs manufacturers to.see who can build the ugliest electric car .I havnt seen a decent one yet . |  | | |
| End of the combustion engine on 09:34 - Jul 31 with 499 views | loftboy |
Talking of daft things, going to Scotland in November as one of my kids now look be there and she's due to give me my second grandchild in October, cheapest train fair I could find was £116 return, so booked return flights on Ryanair for £36, even with the commute between the airport and her house I will be quids in and also a lot quicker, surely the price of train fairs has to come down if they want us to be greener. | |
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| End of the combustion engine on 09:39 - Jul 31 with 492 views | aston_hoop |
| End of the combustion engine on 09:34 - Jul 31 by loftboy |
Talking of daft things, going to Scotland in November as one of my kids now look be there and she's due to give me my second grandchild in October, cheapest train fair I could find was £116 return, so booked return flights on Ryanair for £36, even with the commute between the airport and her house I will be quids in and also a lot quicker, surely the price of train fairs has to come down if they want us to be greener. |
Going to Edinburgh festival in August, £55 return flights from Mallorca to Edinburgh for me and £96 return train tickets for a group of mates coming up from Nottingham. Train prices in the UK are utterly ridiculous unless you can be stupidly flexible or get right in on the advance fares. |  |
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| End of the combustion engine on 11:05 - Jul 31 with 469 views | kensalriser |
| End of the combustion engine on 08:32 - Jul 29 by RangersDave |
Whilst I think the premise is laudable there is no suggestion of big smokey lgv's being removed from out roads, or diesel locomotives from our railways.
Also what about the combustion engine vehicles using our roads from Jonny foreigner land every day free of charge.
What about ships that use our ports? Anyone see the pollution they chuck out itn whatever show it was a few weeks ago? Truly frightening.
Then, add to that, will the uk actually right the world by this measure? Easy answer...... no.
Get the Indians and Chinese to do it , and to stop using coal fired power stations then it would help, but no one in the west is willing to give them 'clean burn' technology.
Ergo, do we really , truly care? Or are we spouting platitudes?
Try seeing clearly down any street in Beijing in daylight hours, and getting breathless just leaving your hotel to literally cross the street. This is where the problem lies, not Blighty.
True we have a problem, and 'could' deal with it if there was a will. But there isn't. It will cost too much, raise questions in my post above, and we, as cheap skates in general, won't pay for it. |
It's generally not Indian and Chinese vehicles polluting Marylebone Road, unless there's some sort of mass licence plate scam going on. | |
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| End of the combustion engine on 13:47 - Jul 31 with 442 views | QPR_Jim |
| End of the combustion engine on 18:21 - Jul 30 by Juzzie |
I read a few years ago that all the recycling/anti-pollution efforts we make in tne UK over the course of one year is undone by the Chinese in just three days.
With regards to the car ban, lets not forget its a ban on new cars, not an overall ban. There will still be petrol/diesel cars being driven for anotner 15-20 years thereafter. Even if its a diminishing scale it will still have an impact so it'll be 45+ years before they're almost gone. |
Over the last 3 years China has declared war on air pollution and been making regulatory changes to help reduce pollution and is also funding research so that they might significantly reduce pollution in the future. That figure you hear may be as much as a week now!
Anyway, the whole argument that we needn't bother unless the Chinese change their way, as others have alluded to, needs updating. They are and we should be anyway regardless. |  | | |
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