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this makes for grim reading for the UK 13:27 - Oct 18 with 9410 viewsbob566



http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/britain/new-figures-show-britain-500
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this makes for grim reading for the UK on 12:16 - Oct 21 with 1290 viewsWatfordR

this makes for grim reading for the UK on 13:10 - Oct 20 by MrSheen

I'm very reluctant to get dragged into another of these, but I have to contest your statement about debt interest costs. The UK government typically raises money on the debt markets by selling long term bonds - up to 50 years or more. The interest on the bonds is set by the auction price on the day they are first sold, and are unchanged through the bond. Yields - the interest that investors demand to hold UK debt, can fluctuate wildly, but the government will never pay more until the day the bond expires and it is redeemed at face value.

Unlike countries like Greece, that tried to economise on interest in the short term by selling low-interest short life bonds rather than higher-interest long term bonds, but then had to refinance 50% more of their debt each year at whatever the markets charged, the UK knows what the cost of 17/18ths of its existing debt is from one year to the next. It is certainly possible that rising bond yields mean that the interest they pay on new debt (either issued to repay an expiring old bond or to fund a current deficit, the latter being larger than the former at present) can be 30% higher than what they paid on NEW debt a year earlier, the whole interest bill can't go up that much, because most of it will be the same. In fact, because yields on new 20 year bonds are 1.88%, compared to 5% or more on the old bonds that are now expiring, the debt interest rate can fall even if short term rates are rising. Of course, a persistent deficit means there are more bonds out there that are all demanding interest, which mounts up in the long run.

If you've read this far, you're going to want to look at some pictures.
https://fullfact.org/economy/interest-payments-national-debt/
https://election2017.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/budgets/gb2017/gb2017ch9.pd


Thanks Mr S, good read and very informative. The figures I found for June 17 were debt costs of £4.9bn, up from £3.7bn in June 2016, due to increases in bond payments linked to price index rises as inflation increases.

And whilst the UK is able to take advantage of low interest rates for its borrowing requirements for the time being, the inevitable rise in interest rates and any downgrade of the UK's credit rating will leave it with increasing debt servicing requirements for decades unless the deficit is eradicated and the national debt is reduced.

It's hard to see how that will happen. Successive governments have pared back budgets on health, education and benefits whilst seeking to defer its commitments on pensions by pushing back retirements ages. And still there is an insurmountable deficit.

I have for a while felt that the "austerity" measures introduced by the coalition government should have had at its core the idea of a return to higher personal taxation. As unpalatable as that would have been to many, I'm not sure how else the UK will ever dig itself out of the mess it's in. It could have been "sold" as an exceptional and extraordinary response to exceptional and extraordinary times, and I'm not sure it would have made life very much worse for most people than it's been over the last seven years. They might even have been starting to see some evidence of the benefits that approach could have brought. I still think it will have to happen, but good luck to whoever tries to sell the concept now.
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this makes for grim reading for the UK on 12:30 - Oct 21 with 1269 viewsWatfordR

this makes for grim reading for the UK on 22:10 - Oct 19 by QPR_John

You have not addressed the question of us being a net contributor or are you making the case should we stay in the EU we would become a net beneficiary.


If the UK sees itself as getting a benefit from being a member of the EU community, for example arresting long term economic decline, then I think it's reasonable to expect that it will have to make a contribution to the EU.

As one of the stronger and bigger economies in the EU, I also think it's reasonable that if the UK wants to grow the size and number of markets it sells into, it should expect to invest in those markets to help them grow to start with.

The amount that the UK pays to be a member of the EU, and that it pays towards investment in new and/or smaller members of the EU is what the UK government is there to negotiate and deal with.
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this makes for grim reading for the UK on 14:04 - Oct 21 with 1231 viewsQPR_John

this makes for grim reading for the UK on 12:30 - Oct 21 by WatfordR

If the UK sees itself as getting a benefit from being a member of the EU community, for example arresting long term economic decline, then I think it's reasonable to expect that it will have to make a contribution to the EU.

As one of the stronger and bigger economies in the EU, I also think it's reasonable that if the UK wants to grow the size and number of markets it sells into, it should expect to invest in those markets to help them grow to start with.

The amount that the UK pays to be a member of the EU, and that it pays towards investment in new and/or smaller members of the EU is what the UK government is there to negotiate and deal with.


"Arresting long term economic decline"

"One of the stronger and bigger economies in th EU"

Interesting
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this makes for grim reading for the UK on 14:21 - Oct 21 with 1210 viewsWatfordR

this makes for grim reading for the UK on 14:04 - Oct 21 by QPR_John

"Arresting long term economic decline"

"One of the stronger and bigger economies in th EU"

Interesting


They aren't mutually contradictory you know.
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this makes for grim reading for the UK on 17:12 - Oct 21 with 1166 viewsQPR_John

this makes for grim reading for the UK on 14:21 - Oct 21 by WatfordR

They aren't mutually contradictory you know.


The point is how bad are the economies of many EU countries if we are one of the bigger and strongest having spent our time arresting long term economic decline.
[Post edited 21 Oct 2017 17:14]
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this makes for grim reading for the UK on 18:21 - Oct 21 with 1132 viewsWatfordR

this makes for grim reading for the UK on 17:12 - Oct 21 by QPR_John

The point is how bad are the economies of many EU countries if we are one of the bigger and strongest having spent our time arresting long term economic decline.
[Post edited 21 Oct 2017 17:14]


They won't necessarily be bad economies, but most would certainly have been smaller. Smaller nations who don't get some help to grow remain small and provide limited trading opportuntites. Nations with improving or growing economies may provide trading opportu nities which larger nations may ultimately use to their advantage.

Going back to my original point about where Britain is now compared to where it was about 100 years, it's still a big economy, and stronger than most, but it has been getting less big and less strong since the 1940s. It has needed to be a member of the EU to arrest that decline. And now Britain is walking away from that cushion with little hard and fast evidence of what happens next.
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this makes for grim reading for the UK on 19:52 - Oct 21 with 1088 viewsWestbourneR

this makes for grim reading for the UK on 03:17 - Oct 21 by Sharpy36

Can`t let this go.

So all Sun and Mail readers are Nazis ?


I didn't say Nazi I said facist. And yeah, they are. As for the the readers they may not be nazis or fascists, some are, but they're definitely ignorant. You couldn't possibly derive pleasure or opinion from either paper otherwise. The Sun doesn't even really print words - unless they're very large and accompanied by a picture. The Mail is a joke in so many ways.

If someone can't see that for themselves it says a lot. Trouble is those same people had the power to make a monumentally terrible decision for the rest of us at the referendum.

At least with regular elections the ignorant are too unengaged to do real damage.

Poll: Should JFH get the sack?

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this makes for grim reading for the UK on 20:39 - Oct 21 with 1066 viewsQPR_John

this makes for grim reading for the UK on 19:52 - Oct 21 by WestbourneR

I didn't say Nazi I said facist. And yeah, they are. As for the the readers they may not be nazis or fascists, some are, but they're definitely ignorant. You couldn't possibly derive pleasure or opinion from either paper otherwise. The Sun doesn't even really print words - unless they're very large and accompanied by a picture. The Mail is a joke in so many ways.

If someone can't see that for themselves it says a lot. Trouble is those same people had the power to make a monumentally terrible decision for the rest of us at the referendum.

At least with regular elections the ignorant are too unengaged to do real damage.


You are so right we really need to question this one man one vote idea. Clearly some people need to be reeducated for their own good.
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this makes for grim reading for the UK on 21:48 - Oct 21 with 1040 viewsSharpy36

this makes for grim reading for the UK on 19:52 - Oct 21 by WestbourneR

I didn't say Nazi I said facist. And yeah, they are. As for the the readers they may not be nazis or fascists, some are, but they're definitely ignorant. You couldn't possibly derive pleasure or opinion from either paper otherwise. The Sun doesn't even really print words - unless they're very large and accompanied by a picture. The Mail is a joke in so many ways.

If someone can't see that for themselves it says a lot. Trouble is those same people had the power to make a monumentally terrible decision for the rest of us at the referendum.

At least with regular elections the ignorant are too unengaged to do real damage.


So what you`re really saying is everyone who voted to leave the EU is an uneducated ignorant idiot ?

'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.'

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this makes for grim reading for the UK on 22:15 - Oct 21 with 1025 viewsdanehoop

this makes for grim reading for the UK on 21:48 - Oct 21 by Sharpy36

So what you`re really saying is everyone who voted to leave the EU is an uneducated ignorant idiot ?


Actually I would argue not that they were necessary ignorant, but it was true that they were not necessarily given all of the information needed to arrive at a considered position.

I can draw a definite comparison between the UK referendum approach and one that I experienced in Denmark when the Danes were asked to vote on whether to be part of a particular piece of EU legislation. Every Danish household received a single pack which explained in a factual manner what the piece of legislation was and what the implications of having or not meant for the country. Whilst the politicians then debated their particular parties views and pros and cons, the actual facts of the issue were available to each household to consider (even if many of them chose not to).

So comparing to the Danish experience of referendum, I'd contrast that it didn't feel as if those voting were necessarily as informed as they might have been.
[Post edited 21 Oct 2017 22:19]

Never knowingly understood

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this makes for grim reading for the UK on 22:27 - Oct 21 with 1016 viewsWestbourneR

this makes for grim reading for the UK on 20:39 - Oct 21 by QPR_John

You are so right we really need to question this one man one vote idea. Clearly some people need to be reeducated for their own good.


Clearly. So glad you agree John. At least first past the post filters the idiots out. Plus they dont usually vote anyway. You only have to look at the turn out for the referendum to know that a lot of people who usually can't be bothered to vote for something boring and inconsequential like a General Election were suddenly going out and voting. I have a feeling those same people weren't voting because they feel strongly about the finer points of the European Court of Justice or the Single Market. They voted as an anti immigration protest vote based on lies propagated by the right wing popular press. The rest of you who joined in for more sophisticated reasons were a tiny drop in the ocean. The majority of your voting mates are the kind of people who like Nigel Farage. Or Jacob Rees Mogg. That's your team.

Poll: Should JFH get the sack?

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this makes for grim reading for the UK on 22:50 - Oct 21 with 1005 viewsSharpy36

this makes for grim reading for the UK on 22:15 - Oct 21 by danehoop

Actually I would argue not that they were necessary ignorant, but it was true that they were not necessarily given all of the information needed to arrive at a considered position.

I can draw a definite comparison between the UK referendum approach and one that I experienced in Denmark when the Danes were asked to vote on whether to be part of a particular piece of EU legislation. Every Danish household received a single pack which explained in a factual manner what the piece of legislation was and what the implications of having or not meant for the country. Whilst the politicians then debated their particular parties views and pros and cons, the actual facts of the issue were available to each household to consider (even if many of them chose not to).

So comparing to the Danish experience of referendum, I'd contrast that it didn't feel as if those voting were necessarily as informed as they might have been.
[Post edited 21 Oct 2017 22:19]


I`m not sure if you live in the UK Dane but each household did receive a brochure sent out by the Conservatives, so although i dont dispute the googling of "What is the EU", i find it hard to believe so many people were in the dark some 24 hours after the vote.
I cant speak for the other 17 million but i knew 100% what i was voting for. But i would suggest that many had their minds changed when listening to some of the toxic rubbish the leave campaign were spewing. As i posted earlier about Junckers "State of the union" speech, i`m sure many hearing that and what his vision is, lots of remainers have switch sides plus many leave voters will feel even more justified in their decision, i know i do.

'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.'

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