| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 20:55 - Oct 19 with 1587 views | essextaxiboy |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 19:48 - Oct 19 by WatfordR |
Around 100 years ago, Britain had an empire that covered a quarter of the planet and a quarter of its citizens. Now it can hardly persuade the Scots to remain part of the Union.
Prior to entering the EU, its GDP had steadily declined since WW2, and it could be argued that Britain joined the EU in an attempt to arrest that decline.
Whatever the truth of that, Britain has undeniably been in steady economic decline for a lot longer than the EU (or its predecessor the EEC) has been around. We need the help and support of others far more than others need our help and support. Until that penny drops, Britain's decline isn't going to halt. IMO. |
Firstly , the Scots have had a chance to go and decided not to.The SNP saw their vote drop dramatically while they were agitating for another go . Incidentally they would have needed a bail out by now .
There is some truth that we joined to arrest a decline but we joined the "Common Market" a trading union not the huge idealistic money pit that it is now . Its not the same beast
We are a small country but wield a huge stick , we have law and order with checks and balances honed over centuries . A military and intelligence capability far in excess of our physical size . We dont have organised obvious "in your face " corruption . Lloyds of London insure the world , our banks and financial institutions are up there with the best .
We will be a huge loss to the EU , that penny may not drop for another year or so .. [Post edited 19 Oct 2017 21:11]
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| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 21:37 - Oct 19 with 1537 views | WatfordR |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 20:51 - Oct 19 by QPR_John |
If we are in continued economic decline how is it that we are a net contributor to the EU. They need us for that very reason alone. Of course Germany and France would rather we were not in the club, remember de Gaulle when we originally tried to join, but they cannot afford for us to leave. But as I have said elsewhere we will not leave the EU too many vested interests |
Our GDP has been relatively stable since joining the EU and until the financial crisis. The point is that as a nation, Britain has been in decline since WW2.
Our national debt increases year on year with no plan to eliminate the deficit. Interest to service the national debt is running at more than £50 BILLION, with those interest costs rising year on year (up over 30% in Jun 2017 compared to Jun 2016 for example). A weakening credit rating will see those costs keep rising.
And in the meantime, we have no political leadership, no planning or vision. All we get is "everything will be fine once we leave the EU". Everyone is going to rush to do trade deals with us that give us a better deal than the one we have already, apparently. It's a bit like saying that in a buyer's market, the buyer's going to give the seller everything they want, because.....well, erm, why wouldn't they?. We get Chris Grayling telling us that British farmers will produce more food to cover any rising costs of importing food. Cos of course...well, erm, why wouldn't they? This isn't particularly a dig at the government, I don't see evidence of any political leadership anywhere in sight in the UK.
Perhaps there's a genius out there with a plan and the political will to turn the good ship Britain round and make it great again. We'll see but I'm not holding my breath. |  | | |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 21:42 - Oct 19 with 1529 views | WatfordR |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 20:55 - Oct 19 by essextaxiboy |
Firstly , the Scots have had a chance to go and decided not to.The SNP saw their vote drop dramatically while they were agitating for another go . Incidentally they would have needed a bail out by now .
There is some truth that we joined to arrest a decline but we joined the "Common Market" a trading union not the huge idealistic money pit that it is now . Its not the same beast
We are a small country but wield a huge stick , we have law and order with checks and balances honed over centuries . A military and intelligence capability far in excess of our physical size . We dont have organised obvious "in your face " corruption . Lloyds of London insure the world , our banks and financial institutions are up there with the best .
We will be a huge loss to the EU , that penny may not drop for another year or so .. [Post edited 19 Oct 2017 21:11]
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You're entitled to your view of how much clout Britain wields globally. And I'm entitled to mine.
They're probably about a century apart. | | | |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 22:10 - Oct 19 with 1499 views | QPR_John |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 21:37 - Oct 19 by WatfordR |
Our GDP has been relatively stable since joining the EU and until the financial crisis. The point is that as a nation, Britain has been in decline since WW2.
Our national debt increases year on year with no plan to eliminate the deficit. Interest to service the national debt is running at more than £50 BILLION, with those interest costs rising year on year (up over 30% in Jun 2017 compared to Jun 2016 for example). A weakening credit rating will see those costs keep rising.
And in the meantime, we have no political leadership, no planning or vision. All we get is "everything will be fine once we leave the EU". Everyone is going to rush to do trade deals with us that give us a better deal than the one we have already, apparently. It's a bit like saying that in a buyer's market, the buyer's going to give the seller everything they want, because.....well, erm, why wouldn't they?. We get Chris Grayling telling us that British farmers will produce more food to cover any rising costs of importing food. Cos of course...well, erm, why wouldn't they? This isn't particularly a dig at the government, I don't see evidence of any political leadership anywhere in sight in the UK.
Perhaps there's a genius out there with a plan and the political will to turn the good ship Britain round and make it great again. We'll see but I'm not holding my breath. |
You have not addressed the question of us being a net contributor or are you making the case should we stay in the EU we would become a net beneficiary. |  | | |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 23:29 - Oct 19 with 1454 views | WestbourneR |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 20:34 - Oct 19 by essextaxiboy |
Corbyn is anti EU , his voting record over decades shows it , he was the opposite to May in Referendum whispering Remain through gritted teeth .
Its amusing to see his followers who I would think overwhelmingly voted Remain chanting his name .
As we saw in the election he will say anything to get a sniff of power . [Post edited 19 Oct 2017 20:35]
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Yep well aware of Corbyns position. I said 'if'. My point was I'd be willing to overlook all his other failings if he offered to stop Brexit. It's by far the biggest problem facing this country. |  |
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| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 23:58 - Oct 19 with 1434 views | Brightonhoop |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 23:29 - Oct 19 by WestbourneR |
Yep well aware of Corbyns position. I said 'if'. My point was I'd be willing to overlook all his other failings if he offered to stop Brexit. It's by far the biggest problem facing this country. |
Not digging this out but JC has a 6 point lead in the only poll that accurately predicted May would lose her majority this year. Boris and co are a stroll in the park, she cannot call a GE because Corbyn would win.
Brit politics is never dull you have to agree, with all the armour of Murdoch, the devils spawn at the Mail and Express railed against him, 'he's a commie loving lesbian libyan loving hezbollah from islington ira loving gaylord who wants to eat your house, babies, carriadge clock, sunday roast and england' (Mail Copyright) Corbyn would and could wipe the bog floor with the current Tory Party. Corbyn's a bit of a w4nker really, but to see him have the whole Conservative movement on the ropes in the corner says a whole lot more. Corbyn. That mammoth of British Politics, has brought the Torys to their knees. Maggie must be getting spit roasted somewhere.
Love him or loathe him that's astonishing.
Interesting times we live in. |  | | |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 00:10 - Oct 20 with 1430 views | Boston |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 21:42 - Oct 19 by WatfordR |
You're entitled to your view of how much clout Britain wields globally. And I'm entitled to mine.
They're probably about a century apart. |
I remember when Watford was part of the Empire. | |
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| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 11:21 - Oct 20 with 1342 views | WestbourneR |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 23:58 - Oct 19 by Brightonhoop |
Not digging this out but JC has a 6 point lead in the only poll that accurately predicted May would lose her majority this year. Boris and co are a stroll in the park, she cannot call a GE because Corbyn would win.
Brit politics is never dull you have to agree, with all the armour of Murdoch, the devils spawn at the Mail and Express railed against him, 'he's a commie loving lesbian libyan loving hezbollah from islington ira loving gaylord who wants to eat your house, babies, carriadge clock, sunday roast and england' (Mail Copyright) Corbyn would and could wipe the bog floor with the current Tory Party. Corbyn's a bit of a w4nker really, but to see him have the whole Conservative movement on the ropes in the corner says a whole lot more. Corbyn. That mammoth of British Politics, has brought the Torys to their knees. Maggie must be getting spit roasted somewhere.
Love him or loathe him that's astonishing.
Interesting times we live in. |
I second this mate. I'd happily see Corbyn win even if was just to show the facist right wing press in this country that their brain washing mind control can be broken. They've decided elections for far too long. They decided the referendum. | |
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| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 11:54 - Oct 20 with 1297 views | paulparker |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 11:21 - Oct 20 by WestbourneR |
I second this mate. I'd happily see Corbyn win even if was just to show the facist right wing press in this country that their brain washing mind control can be broken. They've decided elections for far too long. They decided the referendum. |
They decided the referendum.
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| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 11:55 - Oct 20 with 1300 views | Silverfoxqpr |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 20:55 - Oct 19 by essextaxiboy |
Firstly , the Scots have had a chance to go and decided not to.The SNP saw their vote drop dramatically while they were agitating for another go . Incidentally they would have needed a bail out by now .
There is some truth that we joined to arrest a decline but we joined the "Common Market" a trading union not the huge idealistic money pit that it is now . Its not the same beast
We are a small country but wield a huge stick , we have law and order with checks and balances honed over centuries . A military and intelligence capability far in excess of our physical size . We dont have organised obvious "in your face " corruption . Lloyds of London insure the world , our banks and financial institutions are up there with the best .
We will be a huge loss to the EU , that penny may not drop for another year or so .. [Post edited 19 Oct 2017 21:11]
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Interesting you mention Lloyds of London. They're currently in the process of setting up their offices in Brussels in order to keep trading within the single market and underwrite business from the 1st January 2019. In fact pretty much every week for the last 4-5 months X, Y and Z companies within the Insurance and Reinsurance market have announced their intention to relocate to Brussels, Frankfurt etc in order to keep trading within Europe. That lot along with numerous banking houses trading out of the city have given a deadline on a contingency plan to the government (as announced via the Bank of England last week) of the 4th Quarter 2017, 1st Quarter 2018 at the latest before they commence their relocation plans. |  | | |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 12:02 - Oct 20 with 1285 views | WestbourneR |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 11:54 - Oct 20 by paulparker |
They decided the referendum.
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What papers do you read paulparker - honestly? | |
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| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 12:16 - Oct 20 with 1270 views | Sharpy36 |
Me, i read the heil Hitler Herald, Jack boot journal and the National socialist news.
But honestly Westbourne to label the media in this country as "Facist right wing" is really not giving your argument any credibility at all. |  |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 12:31 - Oct 20 with 1250 views | paulparker |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 12:02 - Oct 20 by WestbourneR |
What papers do you read paulparker - honestly? |
Honest answer I don't buy any rags
but I do agree with you on that Corbyn should be Pm ,
I actually want it to happen just to show how bad he would be , and how much he would fcuk this country up , I just cant wait for the excuses , a bit like that other labour chap the whole country got behind and thought was the future, oh whats his name , oh yeah tony blair mr cool Britannia himself
BTW before you jump on me and say May is awful I agree , the worst PM since Brown and Major | |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 12:38 - Oct 20 with 1245 views | WestbourneR |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 12:16 - Oct 20 by Sharpy36 |
Me, i read the heil Hitler Herald, Jack boot journal and the National socialist news.
But honestly Westbourne to label the media in this country as "Facist right wing" is really not giving your argument any credibility at all. |
Not all - but I'd say it's a totally justified label for the The Sun and Daily Mail and they have by far the biggest circulation. The simple fact is the most influential papers in this country have a obsessively right wing agenda and their readership is led by it. | |
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| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 12:40 - Oct 20 with 1237 views | WestbourneR |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 12:31 - Oct 20 by paulparker |
Honest answer I don't buy any rags
but I do agree with you on that Corbyn should be Pm ,
I actually want it to happen just to show how bad he would be , and how much he would fcuk this country up , I just cant wait for the excuses , a bit like that other labour chap the whole country got behind and thought was the future, oh whats his name , oh yeah tony blair mr cool Britannia himself
BTW before you jump on me and say May is awful I agree , the worst PM since Brown and Major |
I agree Corbyn is a fool, I didn't vote for him. It don't think the economics of the 70s is the way to go, we learnt that in, well, the 70s.
Very unimpressed with May too. She's always been beyond average, I was amazed she became leader.
But I do think that leaving the customs union would be a huge mistake and I'd vote for Corbyn if he'd prevent it. | |
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| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 12:42 - Oct 20 with 1236 views | Northernr |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 12:31 - Oct 20 by paulparker |
Honest answer I don't buy any rags
but I do agree with you on that Corbyn should be Pm ,
I actually want it to happen just to show how bad he would be , and how much he would fcuk this country up , I just cant wait for the excuses , a bit like that other labour chap the whole country got behind and thought was the future, oh whats his name , oh yeah tony blair mr cool Britannia himself
BTW before you jump on me and say May is awful I agree , the worst PM since Brown and Major |
Everyone does that in politics though, the excuses thing. When that Lib Dem MP got caught using rent boys behind his wife's back he blamed, in part, low self esteem caused by the loss of his hair. If Brexit goes badly, do you think all those people who supported it and said it wouldn't be a problem will say "sorry about that, we were wrong"? Course not. It'll be "didn't negotiate it right, made a mess of the negotiations, if we'd negotiated properly it would have been brilliant". |  | | |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 13:10 - Oct 20 with 1196 views | MrSheen |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 21:37 - Oct 19 by WatfordR |
Our GDP has been relatively stable since joining the EU and until the financial crisis. The point is that as a nation, Britain has been in decline since WW2.
Our national debt increases year on year with no plan to eliminate the deficit. Interest to service the national debt is running at more than £50 BILLION, with those interest costs rising year on year (up over 30% in Jun 2017 compared to Jun 2016 for example). A weakening credit rating will see those costs keep rising.
And in the meantime, we have no political leadership, no planning or vision. All we get is "everything will be fine once we leave the EU". Everyone is going to rush to do trade deals with us that give us a better deal than the one we have already, apparently. It's a bit like saying that in a buyer's market, the buyer's going to give the seller everything they want, because.....well, erm, why wouldn't they?. We get Chris Grayling telling us that British farmers will produce more food to cover any rising costs of importing food. Cos of course...well, erm, why wouldn't they? This isn't particularly a dig at the government, I don't see evidence of any political leadership anywhere in sight in the UK.
Perhaps there's a genius out there with a plan and the political will to turn the good ship Britain round and make it great again. We'll see but I'm not holding my breath. |
I'm very reluctant to get dragged into another of these, but I have to contest your statement about debt interest costs. The UK government typically raises money on the debt markets by selling long term bonds - up to 50 years or more. The interest on the bonds is set by the auction price on the day they are first sold, and are unchanged through the bond. Yields - the interest that investors demand to hold UK debt, can fluctuate wildly, but the government will never pay more until the day the bond expires and it is redeemed at face value.
Unlike countries like Greece, that tried to economise on interest in the short term by selling low-interest short life bonds rather than higher-interest long term bonds, but then had to refinance 50% more of their debt each year at whatever the markets charged, the UK knows what the cost of 17/18ths of its existing debt is from one year to the next. It is certainly possible that rising bond yields mean that the interest they pay on new debt (either issued to repay an expiring old bond or to fund a current deficit, the latter being larger than the former at present) can be 30% higher than what they paid on NEW debt a year earlier, the whole interest bill can't go up that much, because most of it will be the same. In fact, because yields on new 20 year bonds are 1.88%, compared to 5% or more on the old bonds that are now expiring, the debt interest rate can fall even if short term rates are rising. Of course, a persistent deficit means there are more bonds out there that are all demanding interest, which mounts up in the long run.
If you've read this far, you're going to want to look at some pictures.
https://fullfact.org/economy/interest-payments-national-debt/
https://election2017.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/budgets/gb2017/gb2017ch9.pd |  | | |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 13:38 - Oct 20 with 1163 views | WestbourneR |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 13:10 - Oct 20 by MrSheen |
I'm very reluctant to get dragged into another of these, but I have to contest your statement about debt interest costs. The UK government typically raises money on the debt markets by selling long term bonds - up to 50 years or more. The interest on the bonds is set by the auction price on the day they are first sold, and are unchanged through the bond. Yields - the interest that investors demand to hold UK debt, can fluctuate wildly, but the government will never pay more until the day the bond expires and it is redeemed at face value.
Unlike countries like Greece, that tried to economise on interest in the short term by selling low-interest short life bonds rather than higher-interest long term bonds, but then had to refinance 50% more of their debt each year at whatever the markets charged, the UK knows what the cost of 17/18ths of its existing debt is from one year to the next. It is certainly possible that rising bond yields mean that the interest they pay on new debt (either issued to repay an expiring old bond or to fund a current deficit, the latter being larger than the former at present) can be 30% higher than what they paid on NEW debt a year earlier, the whole interest bill can't go up that much, because most of it will be the same. In fact, because yields on new 20 year bonds are 1.88%, compared to 5% or more on the old bonds that are now expiring, the debt interest rate can fall even if short term rates are rising. Of course, a persistent deficit means there are more bonds out there that are all demanding interest, which mounts up in the long run.
If you've read this far, you're going to want to look at some pictures.
https://fullfact.org/economy/interest-payments-national-debt/
https://election2017.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/budgets/gb2017/gb2017ch9.pd |
Cheers for that Mr Sheen - that is actually properly informative and interesting. I'm glad to know the national debt isn't quite as huge a problem as it's been made out to be. | |
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| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 14:04 - Oct 20 with 1135 views | MrSheen |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 13:38 - Oct 20 by WestbourneR |
Cheers for that Mr Sheen - that is actually properly informative and interesting. I'm glad to know the national debt isn't quite as huge a problem as it's been made out to be. |
It's definitely a problem, but the cost of servicing it can't run out of control as quickly as it did in Greece...which also makes the miserable task of reducing it easier to put off! | | | |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 03:17 - Oct 21 with 1042 views | Sharpy36 |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 12:38 - Oct 20 by WestbourneR |
Not all - but I'd say it's a totally justified label for the The Sun and Daily Mail and they have by far the biggest circulation. The simple fact is the most influential papers in this country have a obsessively right wing agenda and their readership is led by it. |
Can`t let this go.
So all Sun and Mail readers are Nazis ? | |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 06:09 - Oct 21 with 1012 views | essextaxiboy |
Maybe I should have left out the word organised ........
I meant the type of corruption that affects people in their daily lives , police , customs and border officials , public service employees who decide on housing and jobs .
All of these things are a way of life for many countries , we dont have them here as far as I am aware . That is what I meant by "in your face". | | | |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 06:13 - Oct 21 with 1010 views | essextaxiboy |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 12:42 - Oct 20 by Northernr |
Everyone does that in politics though, the excuses thing. When that Lib Dem MP got caught using rent boys behind his wife's back he blamed, in part, low self esteem caused by the loss of his hair. If Brexit goes badly, do you think all those people who supported it and said it wouldn't be a problem will say "sorry about that, we were wrong"? Course not. It'll be "didn't negotiate it right, made a mess of the negotiations, if we'd negotiated properly it would have been brilliant". |
I am quite happy to hold my hands up if it goes badly after a decent period of time , but its a long term thing , 10 years plus . | | | |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 09:54 - Oct 21 with 965 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 06:13 - Oct 21 by essextaxiboy |
I am quite happy to hold my hands up if it goes badly after a decent period of time , but its a long term thing , 10 years plus . |
Mate, i'm no fan of the EU but you are willing to flush ten years down the shitter? And for a favourable outcome that is far from guaranteed. Does that truly not sound like madness to you? |  | | |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 10:27 - Oct 21 with 955 views | londonscottish |
| this makes for grim reading for the UK on 12:42 - Oct 20 by Northernr |
Everyone does that in politics though, the excuses thing. When that Lib Dem MP got caught using rent boys behind his wife's back he blamed, in part, low self esteem caused by the loss of his hair. If Brexit goes badly, do you think all those people who supported it and said it wouldn't be a problem will say "sorry about that, we were wrong"? Course not. It'll be "didn't negotiate it right, made a mess of the negotiations, if we'd negotiated properly it would have been brilliant". |
Yeah I get a fair bit of that from the louder Brexit supporters in the office. When the negotiations seem to be going badly it's all the fault of the negotiators rather than the fact that they've collectively been thrown a hospital pass.
If the wheels do fall off that's all you're going to hear from Davis, Fox and Nigel "Man of the People" Farage.
Anyway, to early to tell yet. |  |
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