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David Davis + Boris on 15:55 - Jul 18 by derbyhoop
Well, as you asked for it, I'll start the slating.
Europe does not need to get over anything. There will still be a market of 450m people, growing at around 2% (cf with UK growth of 1.3%). The UK is important for its contributions (about 1% of GDP) and it's market size but it isn't the be-all and end-all.
The UK is no longer the 5th largest economy. It is 6th, possibly 7th - as India and France move up.
The EU27 don't need to come to us (see above). Any agreement will be on terms consistent with EU rules. They are not going to make special arrangements for a member who is leaving. Any more than, if you gave up a season ticket, and expected to be let in to Loftus Road every other Saturday for nothing.
We are not paying a fee to leave, we are meeting ongoing commitments made a while ago. If we do not pay those commitments we would be an international pariah. In that case, agreeing free trade deals would become much harder than it already is. No we don't need to ask permission to leave. We can leave and go straight to WTO rules. If we break any of those WTO rules, any one of 168 countries can raise a dispute with the WTO. In any case, forecasts of a "no deal" option anticipate the most severe hit to the UK economy, which is already performing below historical trends and all our major competitors. Only Italy of the EU27 is as bad as us.
The non EU economy is growing faster than the EU .
We should wait until the ECB stop its quantatative easing programme(2.5 trillion Euro to date) before comparing economic performance.Its not a level playing field .
The EU budget would be in trouble if we leave without a deal but. If we protect ourselves and set up as a "Singapore " just over the channel the whole project is in trouble ....IMO
[Post edited 18 Jul 2018 17:19]
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David Davis + Boris on 16:37 - Jul 18 with 2204 views
It would be impressive for O'Mara to get the gig given he is no longer a member of the Labour Party
Yep , that why I said "like"
and I cant find any quotes in that article asking for Hoeys de selection , its simply the view of someone called Jamie Green who was probably born around the time Kate Hoey became an MP
Edit Poor choice of words ......
[Post edited 18 Jul 2018 17:29]
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David Davis + Boris on 17:25 - Jul 18 with 2144 views
David Davis + Boris on 15:55 - Jul 18 by essextaxiboy
It has everything to do with it . Its your assertion that the 27 could cope without our cash . Its mine that they cant, politically for some , fiscally for most.
They are bluffing on WTO , its only this week that they have spoken publicly about it . I would be surprised if any member state has actually thrown much cash at it . Are these new border officials actually on the payroll ? I doubt it .
Any decent negotiator has to have a walk away point , where the deal doesnt stack up . We need to back ourselves . The White Paper should be our absolute bottom line .
Edit
Raab just said in the commons that the UK Parliament have actioned 300 intiatives over the two years to prepare for no deal. Probably bluff as above but at least we are starting to stand on with them , on the rhetoric at least..
Talking about it year ago,decided what to do, found the cash, advertised the jobs, completed recruitment. And that's just one example I quoted because it happened to be in the news today - plenty others if I bother to go back through the archives, you just haven't been listening to them.
Your assertion they can't find the money is about as well-founded but I won't clog the thread up with figures.Frankly the Brexiters' track record on what the EU would have to do has been wrong all down the line, starting with the £39bn we weren't going to pay and German car firms forcing a deal.
The White Paper isn't bottom line, it might just have been a starting point if it'd been put forward a year ago, now it's too late - there's only time for FTA (Canada) Single Market (Norway) or WTO. If you're a Hard Brexiter FTA or WTO has appeal but don't think it's a bluff, it's coming down the line fast now.
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David Davis + Boris on 17:46 - Jul 18 with 2114 views
David Davis + Boris on 16:05 - Jul 18 by kensalriser
It deserves to be slated because it's mindblowingly ill-informed.
It always is Kensal. The people who voted out did so based on misinformation and lies - and swallowed it because essentially it fits with the little England narrative they naturally gravitate towards.
And now, having said we don't need Europe, they're bleating about the deal Europe won't give us.
The best they can say it's WTO!! That's literally all they've got.
The problem is that we're in a position where half the population made a huge mistake but they're too entrenched and proud to admit it - so we all have to suffer to so that they can feel that they've won.
David Davis + Boris on 17:46 - Jul 18 by WestbourneR
It always is Kensal. The people who voted out did so based on misinformation and lies - and swallowed it because essentially it fits with the little England narrative they naturally gravitate towards.
And now, having said we don't need Europe, they're bleating about the deal Europe won't give us.
The best they can say it's WTO!! That's literally all they've got.
The problem is that we're in a position where half the population made a huge mistake but they're too entrenched and proud to admit it - so we all have to suffer to so that they can feel that they've won.
"The people who voted out did so based on misinformation and lies - and swallowed it because essentially it fits with the little England narrative they naturally gravitate towards. "
And that comment from the remain side explains why so many people voted out.
[Post edited 18 Jul 2018 18:23]
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David Davis + Boris on 18:27 - Jul 18 with 2072 views
"The people who voted out did so based on misinformation and lies - and swallowed it because essentially it fits with the little England narrative they naturally gravitate towards. "
And that comment from the remain side explains why so many people voted out.
[Post edited 18 Jul 2018 18:23]
While I agree that the 'little Englander label' is snobby and dismissive as fvck, it's childish to vote on a really important topic such as Brexit because of hurtful comments.
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David Davis + Boris on 18:31 - Jul 18 with 2069 views
While I agree that the 'little Englander label' is snobby and dismissive as fvck, it's childish to vote on a really important topic such as Brexit because of hurtful comments.
Take your point should really have read "partly explains why.........."
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David Davis + Boris on 18:52 - Jul 18 with 2043 views
Edit - the fact you admit it was any factor at all is tragic. Leaving Europe has got to the dimmest protest vote ever conceived. Teach the establishment a lesson, usher in Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson. Brilliant.
David Davis + Boris on 18:52 - Jul 18 by WestbourneR
So you voted out in a fit of pique.
Nice one.
Screw the facts, you made A POINT.
Edit - the fact you admit it was any factor at all is tragic. Leaving Europe has got to the dimmest protest vote ever conceived. Teach the establishment a lesson, usher in Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson. Brilliant.
[Post edited 18 Jul 2018 18:55]
I voted out after a lot of research and thinking about the future and the direction that the EU were moving towards . Most predictions of doom could be identified as being in self interest or guesswork by bodys or individuals with a history of getting it wrong .
I also took confidence in our place in the world and the respect it enjoys . I like to think though if remain had won I would have been more gracious in defeat than the elite who started to insult me and call me names and havnt stopped yet.
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David Davis + Boris on 19:42 - Jul 18 with 1980 views
What are these facts and lies you speak of that us "Little Englanders" failed to notice while busying ourselves with pure hatred of all things non British ?
We`re not leaving Europe by the way.
[Post edited 18 Jul 2018 19:45]
'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.'
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David Davis + Boris on 19:54 - Jul 18 with 1955 views
Talking about it year ago,decided what to do, found the cash, advertised the jobs, completed recruitment. And that's just one example I quoted because it happened to be in the news today - plenty others if I bother to go back through the archives, you just haven't been listening to them.
Your assertion they can't find the money is about as well-founded but I won't clog the thread up with figures.Frankly the Brexiters' track record on what the EU would have to do has been wrong all down the line, starting with the £39bn we weren't going to pay and German car firms forcing a deal.
The White Paper isn't bottom line, it might just have been a starting point if it'd been put forward a year ago, now it's too late - there's only time for FTA (Canada) Single Market (Norway) or WTO. If you're a Hard Brexiter FTA or WTO has appeal but don't think it's a bluff, it's coming down the line fast now.
Pieter Omtzigt ?? Really ? Is that the source ?
Apart from being a total liar , his whole career is wrapped in the EU project and is trying to play us . I didnt say they couldnt find the money (but it was a nice try) . I did point out that it was a huge increase in their current contributions and was fiscally and politically a huge problem.
They only get the 39 bil if we get a trade agreement , so nothing paid yet and the German car manufacturers havnt needed to force anything because it all seems to be going their way. If we are looking at WTO in Feb you may hear from them (just a hunch).
Follow the money ........
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David Davis + Boris on 19:56 - Jul 18 with 1948 views
Speaking to a member of the CLP there the other week, she is gonna have to pray there aren't any selection changes. The members there absolutely hate her
Why do they hate her, because she has a different view to them ? If so that’s pretty low considering she has served her constituency pretty well for well over 20 years , doesn’t Corbyn also want out of Europe to ? Do they hate him ?
And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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David Davis + Boris on 20:01 - Jul 18 with 1931 views
David Davis + Boris on 19:56 - Jul 18 by paulparker
Why do they hate her, because she has a different view to them ? If so that’s pretty low considering she has served her constituency pretty well for well over 20 years , doesn’t Corbyn also want out of Europe to ? Do they hate him ?
He has voted against his own party dozens(probable hundreds) of times, by definition voting with the Torys .
He has been anti EU for decades
He voted against every treaty , if he was a Tory he would be sitting with Mogg and Boris.
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David Davis + Boris on 20:26 - Jul 18 with 1897 views
David Davis + Boris on 18:52 - Jul 18 by WestbourneR
So you voted out in a fit of pique.
Nice one.
Screw the facts, you made A POINT.
Edit - the fact you admit it was any factor at all is tragic. Leaving Europe has got to the dimmest protest vote ever conceived. Teach the establishment a lesson, usher in Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson. Brilliant.
[Post edited 18 Jul 2018 18:55]
Oh dear
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David Davis + Boris on 21:18 - Jul 18 with 1831 views
"The people who voted out did so based on misinformation and lies - and swallowed it because essentially it fits with the little England narrative they naturally gravitate towards. "
And that comment from the remain side explains why so many people voted out.
[Post edited 18 Jul 2018 18:23]
It’s not incorrect though.
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David Davis + Boris on 21:30 - Jul 18 with 1817 views
David Davis + Boris on 19:54 - Jul 18 by essextaxiboy
Pieter Omtzigt ?? Really ? Is that the source ?
Apart from being a total liar , his whole career is wrapped in the EU project and is trying to play us . I didnt say they couldnt find the money (but it was a nice try) . I did point out that it was a huge increase in their current contributions and was fiscally and politically a huge problem.
They only get the 39 bil if we get a trade agreement , so nothing paid yet and the German car manufacturers havnt needed to force anything because it all seems to be going their way. If we are looking at WTO in Feb you may hear from them (just a hunch).
You seem to think I'm trying to trip you up ("nice try") - I'm not, but I'm not going to take your guesswork seriously on this with your track record on this point.
FWIW I still think May will cave in and go for Norway or at worst Canada.
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David Davis + Boris on 21:57 - Jul 18 with 1794 views
Imagine how much better it would be if only the right sort were allowed to vote.
There was a satirical poem by Bertolt Brecht wherein the government lost faith in the electorate and dissoved it in order to have an electorate that agreed with the government. I think it was called The Solution. I bet our government would like to do that.
[Post edited 18 Jul 2018 22:44]
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David Davis + Boris on 22:49 - Jul 18 with 1746 views
Imagine how much better it would be if only the right sort were allowed to vote.
A gammon-free vote would be lovely but everyone rightly can vote.
Though that doesn’t alter the fact that there are obviously plenty of “Little Englander” types. It’s not an insult aimed at all Leavers. It’s just a fact there’s an element of that in our society.
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David Davis + Boris on 23:28 - Jul 18 with 1713 views
For what it's worth I think it's better to try and analyse what's happening now (in particular the Tories tearing themselves apart when Brexit was supposed to bring them together) rather than rehearse previous arguements about Brexit. I was quite busy at the beginning of the week so didn't have time to follow what was happening, but fortunately the Independent provided a summary:
'Unfortunately, Tuesday’s political acid trip only makes sense when lived within the k-hole of Monday, so we will have to begin with a quick recap.
On Monday, the government instructed its MPs to vote in favour of a series of amendments that had been tabled by Jacob Rees-Mogg with the express intention of wrecking the government’s own policy (the policy that it had "agreed" to at Chequers 11 days ago, in the "agreement" that led to both the foreign secretary and the Brexit secretary agreeing to leave the government).
But now the government was in favour of the amendments designed to wreck its own position — apart from a junior defence minister called Guto Bebb, that is, who wasn’t in favour of it, so he quit the government in order to vote for what had been the government’s own position, before Jacob Rees-Mogg decided to wreck it, and the government decided to agree with him.'
Never delved into one of these threads before, but on a practical level, it looks like a No Deal Brexit in March is now realistic. As has been howled on enthusiastically by Rees Mogg etc
That’s in March. Seven months time. We all need to be ready for that.
Does anyone, even the full 100% Leave at all costs idealists, have faith in this collective group of f–wits we have in power to handle a situation where we are suddenly a country with no trade deals at all with anyone around the world (the only country in this position), and the collapse of all sorts of legal, customs and administrative frameworks that simply evaporate as result of Article 50?
There’s no doubt that meshing our national governance with the EU was controversial, but we did it, slowly, over decades since the seventies. And that situation was worth debating. Sensibly. But you can’t undo it in months as the result of referendum and a tantrum, and especially not in the hands of the worst set of politicians ever to sit in the Commons.
Anyone that thinks a No Deal exit is a good thing needs their head examined
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David Davis + Boris on 10:22 - Jul 19 with 1553 views
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