| Frogs Are Hopping Mad 17:36 - Dec 2 with 7941 views | Boston |
....let them fill their petrol tanks with cake, sniff. |  |
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| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 08:16 - Dec 8 with 1818 views | distortR |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 23:44 - Dec 7 by FDC |
I get chippy over Macron because he just personifies the great liberal hope for a return to normality, and the Guardian etc are just so explicit about it.
During the French presidential elections liberals were all screaming "Oh you awful Melenchon commies you want to split the anti Le Pen vote because you'd prefer a fascist over Macron because you're all the same, why can't you just be sensible. Socialists are the same as fascists etc etc"
And those of us suppprting Melenchon said quite explicitly that if you elect someone who continues with the same policies that have given birth to the new far right in France you will see it all again in four years but with renewed strength, because you will be furthering the conditions that have given rise to it..... "you commies you hate the centre because you're basically fascists etc etc". And here we are.
See also Clinton and Trump. Liberals are honestly a menace and will get us all killed. [Post edited 8 Dec 2018 0:14]
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Clinton a liberal? I don't think so.
Hawkish and the clinton foundation's actions in Haiti were rotten to the core. | | | |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 09:45 - Dec 8 with 1786 views | BrianMcCarthy |
I wouldn’t classify the Clintons as liberals either, or Macron. They’re all right-wingers in my book. |  |
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| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 09:52 - Dec 8 with 1782 views | johncharles |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 09:45 - Dec 8 by BrianMcCarthy |
I wouldn’t classify the Clintons as liberals either, or Macron. They’re all right-wingers in my book. |
Right mingers |  |
| Strong and stable my arse. |
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| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 14:47 - Dec 8 with 1708 views | FDC |
I wasn't referring to Clinton or Macron as liberals; I was referring to the fact that liberals generally would rather back someone like them than anyone vaguely left wing like Saunders |  | | |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 20:01 - Dec 8 with 1632 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 14:47 - Dec 8 by FDC |
I wasn't referring to Clinton or Macron as liberals; I was referring to the fact that liberals generally would rather back someone like them than anyone vaguely left wing like Saunders |
Sorry, yes I agree. Liberals are centrists who these days vote right-wing. They claim credit for ending slavery, giving women the vote etc but if so it's hard to equate that with their voting patterns in modern times. | |
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| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 20:16 - Dec 8 with 1614 views | kensalriser |
'Liberal' is not actually a political ideology, so none of this analysis works for me. It's become another easy pejorative to throw shit at without having to engage any actual thought process.
It's not centrism or liberalism that's got us to the point where swathes of people feel ignored, sidelined and disenfranchised, it's decades of economic policy that have favoured the emergence of a new class of super-rich at the cost of squeezing the middle and lower middle class. And these policies aren't happenstance, they're the result of sustained and deeply funded lobbying by billionaires like the Mercer family and the Koch brothers - the real elites. |  |
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| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 20:34 - Dec 8 with 1596 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 20:16 - Dec 8 by kensalriser |
'Liberal' is not actually a political ideology, so none of this analysis works for me. It's become another easy pejorative to throw shit at without having to engage any actual thought process.
It's not centrism or liberalism that's got us to the point where swathes of people feel ignored, sidelined and disenfranchised, it's decades of economic policy that have favoured the emergence of a new class of super-rich at the cost of squeezing the middle and lower middle class. And these policies aren't happenstance, they're the result of sustained and deeply funded lobbying by billionaires like the Mercer family and the Koch brothers - the real elites. |
Agree completely bar one thing - surely the poor have been squeezed even more? | |
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| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 20:40 - Dec 8 with 1591 views | kensalriser |
Well yeah - but the poor never had anything to begin with! | |
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| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 22:52 - Dec 8 with 1498 views | FDC |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 20:16 - Dec 8 by kensalriser |
'Liberal' is not actually a political ideology, so none of this analysis works for me. It's become another easy pejorative to throw shit at without having to engage any actual thought process.
It's not centrism or liberalism that's got us to the point where swathes of people feel ignored, sidelined and disenfranchised, it's decades of economic policy that have favoured the emergence of a new class of super-rich at the cost of squeezing the middle and lower middle class. And these policies aren't happenstance, they're the result of sustained and deeply funded lobbying by billionaires like the Mercer family and the Koch brothers - the real elites. |
"Liberal' is not actually a political ideology"
This is such an odd claim. Is it a claim to semantics that I'm missing like "muslim isn't a race so I'm not being racist"?
Edit
Unless of course you're doing the *classic* liberal thing of mistaking your ideology for common sense? Which would be just too perfect tbh [Post edited 8 Dec 2018 22:55]
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| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 23:05 - Dec 8 with 1477 views | TacticalR |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 23:44 - Dec 7 by FDC |
I get chippy over Macron because he just personifies the great liberal hope for a return to normality, and the Guardian etc are just so explicit about it.
During the French presidential elections liberals were all screaming "Oh you awful Melenchon commies you want to split the anti Le Pen vote because you'd prefer a fascist over Macron because you're all the same, why can't you just be sensible. Socialists are the same as fascists etc etc"
And those of us suppprting Melenchon said quite explicitly that if you elect someone who continues with the same policies that have given birth to the new far right in France you will see it all again in four years but with renewed strength, because you will be furthering the conditions that have given rise to it..... "you commies you hate the centre because you're basically fascists etc etc". And here we are.
See also Clinton and Trump. Liberals are honestly a menace and will get us all killed. [Post edited 8 Dec 2018 0:14]
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During the Presidential campaign, before the candidates got winnowed down to Le Pen and Macron, there was a roundtable debate between the candidates, and as far as I could tell the only one who was able to lay a glove on Le Pen and expose her bogus 'anti-elitism' was Philippe Poutou
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Poutou [Post edited 8 Dec 2018 23:06]
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| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 23:10 - Dec 8 with 1471 views | kensalriser |
I don't really have an ideology. But it sounds as though you're identifying me as a 'Liberal' and therefore someone you automatically oppose, which kind of proves my point - you're arguing about terminology instead of engaging with the subject. | |
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| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 23:38 - Dec 8 with 1448 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 23:10 - Dec 8 by kensalriser |
I don't really have an ideology. But it sounds as though you're identifying me as a 'Liberal' and therefore someone you automatically oppose, which kind of proves my point - you're arguing about terminology instead of engaging with the subject. |
I certainly knew what FDC meant. And of course you have a idealogy as long as you have an opinion as to how things should be run.
If we are talking semantics I refuse to use the word moderate.
You can't moderately kill 700,000 Iraqis and Libyans civilians and you can't moderately crash the world economy in 2008 and you can't moderately put 600 students in the stress position for smashing a bankers Merc in the Banlieues.
They can all get fvcked, from Blair to the Clintons to Macron to Progress. |  | | |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 00:16 - Dec 9 with 1425 views | Boston |
Yes but....are the French fried? | |
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| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 02:13 - Dec 9 with 1397 views | LazyFan |
Liberals, Blairites, Centerists, etc
They may have some heartfelt policies (even Blair was forced to concede the minimum wage by the Unions), but when it comes to crunch time you will find they will always flip back to full on Capitalism (which is a fancy word for Moneyism).
Even some so-called self-identified Lefties will say "all we need to have is more regulation, tweak the capitalist system, make it nice and liberal and all will be good". They have been tweaking forever and new regulations just get ignored by Danske Bank, Grenfell Builders and so on.
The list of regulations not working needs regulation :P
This ideological approach of nice capitalism with a small "c" extends so, far from the right that it has even entered the left. Let us take Labour Party policy of having a new Nationalised run Bank (running is not the same as mere owning in a silent partner mode like RBS) to provide proper services to the country. This policy would only affect around 2% of the money in the country. Basically, feck all and a token effort, Labour has been told this, but still presses ahead with a policy that will change nothing at all economically. So. Capitalism remains un-attacked.
Yet you watch the so-called middle lot fight this even harder than the right, even though it changes nothing. The reason they will is that it is a small and pathetic move towards Socialism and highlights a failure of the middle (which is really the right) and thus cannot be tolerated. Which is why for ideological reasons (remember it won't change anything much in the economy good or bad) they will fight it all the way and fight hard. This will be the so-called liberals doing it as well.
As these people come to power with their lies, they are of course found out. Voters did not vote for more of the same, but with slicker words, they wanted productive change for them. When that does not happen, a polarisation in a countries political leanings happens. The middle (which is really the Right) gets the boot.
Typically the Left fails to sustain or even create a proper movement to leverage this situation to gain power (the French left is failing to do this now) and thus sometimes the hard right gains power (Trump) or it returns to the establishment (Macron).
However, the Left only has to win once and then sustain it. These are big IF's as powerful forces are against the people. It is a power struggle always with the odds against the Left.
Sometimes the Right makes mistakes even when they have regulated for it (see regulation does not even work for them), for example when Corbyn got on the ballot for Labour leader and won and then won again. They make more mistakes, attacking Corbyn on racism (which has had zero effect on Labour poll ratings in either direction) well before any election which would be the correct time to do it. Small victories which may lead to bigger things or maybe once again defeated.
So, how does one know where one stands?
Simples. Look at the leftist party in the country, in this case, Labour.
If you stand to the left of their policies, then you're on the left, else you on the right.
Some people may be aghast at this, but that is because they don't understand a trait of left-wing politics. And that is to keep the Socialist movement going, which means looking at ways to be even more progressively Socialist in regards to the policies of the current main left party (if there even is one).
Thus if one is not looking at that, then when things get tough they are usually looking to turn to the right. So, they will flip back and you will see signs of this even when things don't get tough. There is always some lame ass reason to keep Capitalism going by so-called liberals or wannbe lefties. And that is usually the number one trait that appears again and again.
The Left attacks Labour all the time as not being Socialist enough and also not for the sake of it or to show off, but to be productive and continue the good fight.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz |  |
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| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 09:58 - Dec 9 with 1329 views | FDC |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 23:10 - Dec 8 by kensalriser |
I don't really have an ideology. But it sounds as though you're identifying me as a 'Liberal' and therefore someone you automatically oppose, which kind of proves my point - you're arguing about terminology instead of engaging with the subject. |
Everyone has an ideology because everyone has a belief about how things should be. If you think you don't it's because it is so aligned to the hegemony of the moment that it appears as common sense.
I don't really understand the rest of that. We were talking about the yellow coats I thought, and my argument is that we've seen, in recent history, the instincts of liberals to back the likes of Macron and Clinton rather than left alternatives and that this paves the way for the far right for the reasons I gave. | | | |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 11:19 - Dec 9 with 1292 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 20:16 - Dec 8 by kensalriser |
'Liberal' is not actually a political ideology, so none of this analysis works for me. It's become another easy pejorative to throw shit at without having to engage any actual thought process.
It's not centrism or liberalism that's got us to the point where swathes of people feel ignored, sidelined and disenfranchised, it's decades of economic policy that have favoured the emergence of a new class of super-rich at the cost of squeezing the middle and lower middle class. And these policies aren't happenstance, they're the result of sustained and deeply funded lobbying by billionaires like the Mercer family and the Koch brothers - the real elites. |
Agree with what you're saying here, but for clarification liberalism bloody well is a political philosophy | | | |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 13:08 - Dec 9 with 1235 views | Hayesender |
Armoured vehicles with the EU flag on them on the streets of Paris.
Didn't the remain camp say that the thought of an EU army was just a fantasy put out by the leave side?
The fourth Reich |  |
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| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 17:05 - Dec 9 with 1185 views | Sharpy36 |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 13:08 - Dec 9 by Hayesender |
Armoured vehicles with the EU flag on them on the streets of Paris.
Didn't the remain camp say that the thought of an EU army was just a fantasy put out by the leave side?
The fourth Reich |
Speaks volumes does it not, but i`m sure there will be some form of explanation for it being there that should brush it under the carpet. Unlike the misinterpreted wording on the side of a bus. |  |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 17:51 - Dec 9 with 1154 views | Boston |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 23:10 - Dec 8 by kensalriser |
I don't really have an ideology. But it sounds as though you're identifying me as a 'Liberal' and therefore someone you automatically oppose, which kind of proves my point - you're arguing about terminology instead of engaging with the subject. |
Why pick Mercer and the Kochs out of the hundreds of billionaires trying to influence world politics? | |
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| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 19:51 - Dec 9 with 1106 views | Jigsore |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 17:51 - Dec 9 by Boston |
Why pick Mercer and the Kochs out of the hundreds of billionaires trying to influence world politics? |
because they're succeeding by using new information technology and analytics extremely irresponsibly to devastating effect |  |
| “The thing about football - the important thing about football - is that it is not just about football.†|
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| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 23:27 - Dec 9 with 985 views | Boston |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 19:51 - Dec 9 by Jigsore |
because they're succeeding by using new information technology and analytics extremely irresponsibly to devastating effect |
Succeeding at what? | |
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| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 00:21 - Dec 10 with 970 views | kensalriser |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 13:08 - Dec 9 by Hayesender |
Armoured vehicles with the EU flag on them on the streets of Paris.
Didn't the remain camp say that the thought of an EU army was just a fantasy put out by the leave side?
The fourth Reich |
Source? | |
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| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 01:56 - Dec 10 with 944 views | Jigsore |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 23:27 - Dec 9 by Boston |
Succeeding at what? |
you said it yourself in the message I originally replied to. keep up | |
| “The thing about football - the important thing about football - is that it is not just about football.†|
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| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 07:12 - Dec 10 with 884 views | Maggsinho |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 13:08 - Dec 9 by Hayesender |
Armoured vehicles with the EU flag on them on the streets of Paris.
Didn't the remain camp say that the thought of an EU army was just a fantasy put out by the leave side?
The fourth Reich |
Those EU flags were left over from a policing deployment to Kosovo, there really isn’t an EU army rolling into Paris to fight demonstrators. |  | | |
| Frogs Are Hopping Mad on 10:09 - Dec 10 with 845 views | Toast_R |
AN EU army would basically put the whole of Europe into another WW1 scenario, EU one side, Russia the other. Each flexing their muscles until something kicks off. |  | | |
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