| Sherwood 08:27 - Apr 24 with 21850 views | SimplyNico |
Out of the running. Per the Times this morning. |  | | |  |
| Sherwood on 18:54 - Apr 24 with 2879 views | loftboy |
Are we the only club that is fixated with having to have an ex player as a manger? |  |
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| Sherwood on 19:18 - Apr 24 with 2807 views | Hunterhoop |
The more I think about it, I want Warbuton or Pearson working under our DOC set up with Ramsey in charge of the Academy.
I think it’s crucial we do not give back control of all signings to one person for the good of the football club and the youth set up is working as well as it has done in decades which is crucial to our club’s future.
However, I think the the first team need an authoritarian, a bit like Warnock. Loftus Rd responds to two types of performances: well drilled, organised attack football, usually with proper wingers, OR proper hard working, get stuck in, die for he short stuff.
I think it’s important the new manager wins over the fans quickly next season.
For me, Warbuton and Pearson are the only two candidates who offer one or both the approaches above. And they’re the only two I think won’t stand for such erratic displays as we’ve seen experienced this last two seasons.
In hindsight, always wonderful, I think what this squad needs and has lacked for some years, is clear, form direction. We lack leaders on the pitch and are reliant on young players or players stepping up from reserve/ lower league football. As such, I think we need that clear, form leadership to come from the coaching staff, with the arm round shoulder approach only taken occasionally. I think the past two seasons has been too much of the softly softly, approach where we expect the players to do too much thinking and leading themselves...which i’m Not sure they’re capable.
I think the young players we have will relish some clear simple messages that fit into a clear way of playing, even if it’s physical and ugly. But we have to be hard working. If you have one of the smallest budgets, you must be one of the hardest working to compensate. |  | | |
| Sherwood on 19:30 - Apr 24 with 2771 views | PunteR |
| Sherwood on 19:18 - Apr 24 by Hunterhoop |
The more I think about it, I want Warbuton or Pearson working under our DOC set up with Ramsey in charge of the Academy.
I think it’s crucial we do not give back control of all signings to one person for the good of the football club and the youth set up is working as well as it has done in decades which is crucial to our club’s future.
However, I think the the first team need an authoritarian, a bit like Warnock. Loftus Rd responds to two types of performances: well drilled, organised attack football, usually with proper wingers, OR proper hard working, get stuck in, die for he short stuff.
I think it’s important the new manager wins over the fans quickly next season.
For me, Warbuton and Pearson are the only two candidates who offer one or both the approaches above. And they’re the only two I think won’t stand for such erratic displays as we’ve seen experienced this last two seasons.
In hindsight, always wonderful, I think what this squad needs and has lacked for some years, is clear, form direction. We lack leaders on the pitch and are reliant on young players or players stepping up from reserve/ lower league football. As such, I think we need that clear, form leadership to come from the coaching staff, with the arm round shoulder approach only taken occasionally. I think the past two seasons has been too much of the softly softly, approach where we expect the players to do too much thinking and leading themselves...which i’m Not sure they’re capable.
I think the young players we have will relish some clear simple messages that fit into a clear way of playing, even if it’s physical and ugly. But we have to be hard working. If you have one of the smallest budgets, you must be one of the hardest working to compensate. |
I think Pearson could do well . Tough, no nonsense. I think he expects the same from his players. Similar to Warnock i think.
We need experience on the pitch as well. This team seemed to respond well when we had Rangel on the pitch. |  |
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| Sherwood on 19:35 - Apr 24 with 2758 views | Northolt_Rs |
| Sherwood on 14:04 - Apr 24 by SimonJames |
Warnock please. |
Warnock won’t work under Teflon Les remember? |  |
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| Sherwood on 19:56 - Apr 24 with 2693 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Sherwood on 18:54 - Apr 24 by loftboy |
Are we the only club that is fixated with having to have an ex player as a manger? |
I don't think so - e.g. Solskjaer
But we do know we're not top of anybody's list, that patience of fans has been (understandably) stretched to breaking point, and feel the club has lost its way. A lot of people clutch at an ex-player as someone who'd choose us over a cushier number, get the home crowd behind the team, and understand what we want to see on the pitch.
Not saying it's right but I see why people think that way, especially after the parade of mercenaries on the pitch and in the dug-out during our last two stints in the Premiership. | | | |
| Sherwood on 23:30 - Apr 24 with 2329 views | SimonJames |
| Sherwood on 19:35 - Apr 24 by Northolt_Rs |
Warnock won’t work under Teflon Les remember? |
Les needs to fix things...
But I'm sure NW will be perfectly happy using his big parachute payments next season to try bounce Cardiff straight back up. |  |
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| Sherwood on 07:47 - Apr 25 with 2090 views | Hunterhoop |
| Sherwood on 23:30 - Apr 24 by SimonJames |
Les needs to fix things...
But I'm sure NW will be perfectly happy using his big parachute payments next season to try bounce Cardiff straight back up. |
Indeed +£40m or something? Plus all the money they’ve pocketed this year, given they’ve certainly not spent like us or Fulham!
We’ll be operating on about a 1/5th the playing budget. No doubt when Cardiff beat us 2-1 at LR they’ll be a backlash against whoever this boss is and many posts about why we didn’t appoint Warnock... | | | |
| Sherwood on 07:49 - Apr 25 with 2091 views | Gloucs_R |
| Sherwood on 17:23 - Apr 24 by Antti_Heinola |
what did the box ticking thing mean then Gloucs? |
It's no secret that Les wants more black managers in the game. Nobody should get a job based on the colour of their skin, in the same way nobody should ever be excluded too. https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/football-doesnt-see-star-black-1457
Moore has substantially less experience than the other managers mentioned so why is he in the frame when, say Ainsworth, isn't? |  |
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| Sherwood on 08:06 - Apr 25 with 2050 views | ozexile |
Probably because he's available and he's coached in the prem and champs. | | | |
| Sherwood on 08:25 - Apr 25 with 2006 views | Gloucs_R |
| Sherwood on 08:06 - Apr 25 by ozexile |
Probably because he's available and he's coached in the prem and champs. |
I'm not convinced we need a coach with 10 months experience managing a relegated team and then one of the best squads in the championship. But I think the "he's free and available " comment is true. | |
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| Sherwood on 08:34 - Apr 25 with 1975 views | Hunterhoop |
Do you not want more black managers in the game?
I do. They are hugely underrepresented when compared to the percentage of black players in the game over the last 20 years. Why is that?
If you only hire based on experience, you’ll only have the same people managing going around in a circle.
Experience does not equal ability. Hiring should absolutely be meritocratic, not based on the colour of someone’s skin OR how long they’ve been a manager. I’m not suggesting i’d Pick Moore over Ainsworth, but another way to look at it is that Moore has managed in the Prem against the world’s best and had WBA 4th for most of the season (they’ve not improved since he left). Ainsworth has never managed at that level. Who is more qualified? I know you’ll say “but Moore got a chance Ainsworth hasn’t had.”
And you’re correct. But that is the fundamental issue with the lack of black managers and coaches in the game; they’ve not getting the chances others have had. That needs to change. | | | |
| Sherwood on 08:47 - Apr 25 with 1943 views | simmo |
My understanding is that Moore interviewed quite well, considering we're meeting a lot of people for this, it stands to reason that a few would be progressed/considered based on them interviewing and working the process well.
Personally, I would wait on Jackett and if Pompey doesn't go up, see if he wants it. Otherwise, I'd give it to Ainsworth, I don't see where he doesn't tick the boxes - he's like a more manager version of Bircham, has hundreds of games under his belt, has had his teams promoted and fighting relegation and done it all with a smaller budget even than the one he will have here. Not to mention he's brought in a load of frees and kids and improved them. |  |
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| Sherwood on 08:56 - Apr 25 with 1909 views | Northolt_Rs |
| Sherwood on 08:34 - Apr 25 by Hunterhoop |
Do you not want more black managers in the game?
I do. They are hugely underrepresented when compared to the percentage of black players in the game over the last 20 years. Why is that?
If you only hire based on experience, you’ll only have the same people managing going around in a circle.
Experience does not equal ability. Hiring should absolutely be meritocratic, not based on the colour of someone’s skin OR how long they’ve been a manager. I’m not suggesting i’d Pick Moore over Ainsworth, but another way to look at it is that Moore has managed in the Prem against the world’s best and had WBA 4th for most of the season (they’ve not improved since he left). Ainsworth has never managed at that level. Who is more qualified? I know you’ll say “but Moore got a chance Ainsworth hasn’t had.”
And you’re correct. But that is the fundamental issue with the lack of black managers and coaches in the game; they’ve not getting the chances others have had. That needs to change. |
As a club we’ve been more diverse than most - but we’ve had a succession of managers, black and white, who have all been crap. Maybe it’s not just the actual manager - it’s who selects them? | |
| Scooters, Tunes, Trainers and QPR. |
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| Sherwood on 08:57 - Apr 25 with 1908 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Sherwood on 08:47 - Apr 25 by simmo |
My understanding is that Moore interviewed quite well, considering we're meeting a lot of people for this, it stands to reason that a few would be progressed/considered based on them interviewing and working the process well.
Personally, I would wait on Jackett and if Pompey doesn't go up, see if he wants it. Otherwise, I'd give it to Ainsworth, I don't see where he doesn't tick the boxes - he's like a more manager version of Bircham, has hundreds of games under his belt, has had his teams promoted and fighting relegation and done it all with a smaller budget even than the one he will have here. Not to mention he's brought in a load of frees and kids and improved them. |
Careful, Simmo, or this thread will veer back on-topic! |  |
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| Sherwood on 09:04 - Apr 25 with 1880 views | Gloucs_R |
| Sherwood on 08:34 - Apr 25 by Hunterhoop |
Do you not want more black managers in the game?
I do. They are hugely underrepresented when compared to the percentage of black players in the game over the last 20 years. Why is that?
If you only hire based on experience, you’ll only have the same people managing going around in a circle.
Experience does not equal ability. Hiring should absolutely be meritocratic, not based on the colour of someone’s skin OR how long they’ve been a manager. I’m not suggesting i’d Pick Moore over Ainsworth, but another way to look at it is that Moore has managed in the Prem against the world’s best and had WBA 4th for most of the season (they’ve not improved since he left). Ainsworth has never managed at that level. Who is more qualified? I know you’ll say “but Moore got a chance Ainsworth hasn’t had.”
And you’re correct. But that is the fundamental issue with the lack of black managers and coaches in the game; they’ve not getting the chances others have had. That needs to change. |
I honestly couldn't care less what skin colour people have, so cant answer your question. The best people for the job should get the job, end of.
I believe all managers should start at the lower leagues and work their way up unless they have something very special and unique. Ainsworth, Derry, Barton....all have started off in the lower divisions.
Now if Moore has something special, which the board has seen then yes, bring him in. But I haven't had that luxury of interviewing him so basing my opinion purely on stats and experience. For me, Moore is a bit like Ramsey, a youth team coach who came through the ranks (during hard times) but it didn't work out. | |
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| Sherwood on 09:11 - Apr 25 with 1851 views | ElHoop |
I think that the cause of black managers would be advanced if for instance black African nations actually employed black managers. The last World Cup had one black manager on the bench out of 32 countries. The fact is that pretty much everybody, whether a black African country or an English Championship club, tries to employ the best manager that they can find at the time, regardless of colour or creed. There's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't employ the best candidate produced by a sensible selection process. |  | | |
| Sherwood on 09:14 - Apr 25 with 1829 views | Hunterhoop |
| Sherwood on 09:04 - Apr 25 by Gloucs_R |
I honestly couldn't care less what skin colour people have, so cant answer your question. The best people for the job should get the job, end of.
I believe all managers should start at the lower leagues and work their way up unless they have something very special and unique. Ainsworth, Derry, Barton....all have started off in the lower divisions.
Now if Moore has something special, which the board has seen then yes, bring him in. But I haven't had that luxury of interviewing him so basing my opinion purely on stats and experience. For me, Moore is a bit like Ramsey, a youth team coach who came through the ranks (during hard times) but it didn't work out. |
I’m not sure you understand the concept of equal opportunities. It’s not the opposite of a meritocracy, or in your words “the best person for the job should get the job”. It is the foundation upon which a true meritocracy is built. The problem with football is that there is absolutely not equal opportunities for black coaches. The number in the game versus the number of players in the game is all the evidence you need for that. Unless of course you believe there is a difference between races in aptitude or interest in coaching. | | | |
| Sherwood on 09:15 - Apr 25 with 1830 views | Maggsinho |
| Sherwood on 09:11 - Apr 25 by ElHoop |
I think that the cause of black managers would be advanced if for instance black African nations actually employed black managers. The last World Cup had one black manager on the bench out of 32 countries. The fact is that pretty much everybody, whether a black African country or an English Championship club, tries to employ the best manager that they can find at the time, regardless of colour or creed. There's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't employ the best candidate produced by a sensible selection process. |
That's a bit of a circular argument though, if black managers aren't getting a chance in national leagues there aren't going to be black managers with the experience to manage an international side. |  | | |
| Sherwood on 09:18 - Apr 25 with 1818 views | Hunterhoop |
| Sherwood on 09:11 - Apr 25 by ElHoop |
I think that the cause of black managers would be advanced if for instance black African nations actually employed black managers. The last World Cup had one black manager on the bench out of 32 countries. The fact is that pretty much everybody, whether a black African country or an English Championship club, tries to employ the best manager that they can find at the time, regardless of colour or creed. There's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't employ the best candidate produced by a sensible selection process. |
And yet, at some point in time someone took a punt on the inexperienced likes of Ferguson, Klopp, Mourinho, Guardiola, Wenger, etc.
You need an opportunity to show what you can do.
Just because people are fixated on “experience”, does not mean it gets you the best candidate.
And clearly that decision is an entirely subjective one. Multiple examples of subjectivity does not make it objectively right. | | | |
| Sherwood on 09:23 - Apr 25 with 1789 views | Hunterhoop |
| Sherwood on 08:56 - Apr 25 by Northolt_Rs |
As a club we’ve been more diverse than most - but we’ve had a succession of managers, black and white, who have all been crap. Maybe it’s not just the actual manager - it’s who selects them? |
Statistically we are the most diverse, and therefore the most equal opportunities club, in the country. I’m proud of that.
In terms of whether are managers have been good. How many clubs think they do a great job of appointing managers? Probably only the successful ones at that specific point they’re successful.
Equally, who is to say, with the playing budget and financial constraints the club have, other candidates we chose not to appoint would have done any better? You don’t know otherwise. | | | |
| Sherwood on 09:45 - Apr 25 with 1725 views | ElHoop |
| Sherwood on 09:18 - Apr 25 by Hunterhoop |
And yet, at some point in time someone took a punt on the inexperienced likes of Ferguson, Klopp, Mourinho, Guardiola, Wenger, etc.
You need an opportunity to show what you can do.
Just because people are fixated on “experience”, does not mean it gets you the best candidate.
And clearly that decision is an entirely subjective one. Multiple examples of subjectivity does not make it objectively right. |
Yes it's subjective but the stats are the result a large population of individual processes and decisions. Sometimes they take a punt as the next best option isn't that great anyway, so why not have a go? If the punt option isn't black then are you saying that they need to find a black option? It's a lot of individual decisions as you say, most of which I would venture to suggest are based upon some sort of reasoning which doesn't involve age race or creed or any other irrelevant attributes. What else can you do? | | | |
| Sherwood on 09:55 - Apr 25 with 1694 views | timeforheroes |
| Sherwood on 09:45 - Apr 25 by ElHoop |
Yes it's subjective but the stats are the result a large population of individual processes and decisions. Sometimes they take a punt as the next best option isn't that great anyway, so why not have a go? If the punt option isn't black then are you saying that they need to find a black option? It's a lot of individual decisions as you say, most of which I would venture to suggest are based upon some sort of reasoning which doesn't involve age race or creed or any other irrelevant attributes. What else can you do? |
The problem is that these individual processes and decisions which you mention are often the result of a number of inherent and unconscious biases. Even the most liberal people have been shown in studies to have unconscious racial biases and when the fact that there are so few BAME managers in the game is added into the mix, it leads to a huge disadvantage for black candidates which chairmen may not even be aware of. Accepting that these biases exist and taking steps to combat them, such as the Rooney Rule is one way of trying to redress the balance. For the record, I don't think Darren Moore deserves the job based on his record at WBA, but I think that Ramsay and Hasselbaink were reasonable appointments in their own right, regardless of their race. |  | | |
| Sherwood on 10:17 - Apr 25 with 1632 views | Northolt_Rs |
| Sherwood on 09:14 - Apr 25 by Hunterhoop |
I’m not sure you understand the concept of equal opportunities. It’s not the opposite of a meritocracy, or in your words “the best person for the job should get the job”. It is the foundation upon which a true meritocracy is built. The problem with football is that there is absolutely not equal opportunities for black coaches. The number in the game versus the number of players in the game is all the evidence you need for that. Unless of course you believe there is a difference between races in aptitude or interest in coaching. |
Is it similar to understanding the concept of being a condescending bell end? Pr1ck | |
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| Sherwood on 10:17 - Apr 25 with 1627 views | ElHoop |
| Sherwood on 09:55 - Apr 25 by timeforheroes |
The problem is that these individual processes and decisions which you mention are often the result of a number of inherent and unconscious biases. Even the most liberal people have been shown in studies to have unconscious racial biases and when the fact that there are so few BAME managers in the game is added into the mix, it leads to a huge disadvantage for black candidates which chairmen may not even be aware of. Accepting that these biases exist and taking steps to combat them, such as the Rooney Rule is one way of trying to redress the balance. For the record, I don't think Darren Moore deserves the job based on his record at WBA, but I think that Ramsay and Hasselbaink were reasonable appointments in their own right, regardless of their race. |
I don't think that we're talking about the 1970's now, when it comes to racial bias. Sure there are no-hopers out there still booing black players or giving them other abuse but I think that by and large they get a fair chance. I just don't see much evidence that great black managers have been obstructed during their rise to the top by racism whether unconscious or otherwise. If they were great managers then they'd get there in the end just like Ferguson for example did. There simply aren't any great black managers at the moment. In terms of English managers generally, they are obviously badly represented in the Premier League regardless of colour. Are they not given the chance or just not good enough? I suspect the latter. In the end the cream rises to the top. You may be right in that crap black managers haven't been given as many opportunities as crap white managers, but I'm not convinced about that either, although i could well be wrong. How would either of us know the truth? | | | |
| Sherwood on 10:29 - Apr 25 with 1583 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Sherwood on 09:04 - Apr 25 by Gloucs_R |
I honestly couldn't care less what skin colour people have, so cant answer your question. The best people for the job should get the job, end of.
I believe all managers should start at the lower leagues and work their way up unless they have something very special and unique. Ainsworth, Derry, Barton....all have started off in the lower divisions.
Now if Moore has something special, which the board has seen then yes, bring him in. But I haven't had that luxury of interviewing him so basing my opinion purely on stats and experience. For me, Moore is a bit like Ramsey, a youth team coach who came through the ranks (during hard times) but it didn't work out. |
I'm sure you don't care what colour skin a manager has, but if the world worked like that law of averages says the proportion of black managers would be similar to the proportion of black people (or black footballers, which'd be higher.) It isn't, so that suggests that a load of black people are the best person for the job, but aren't getting it.
If we can get at some of that unused talent, why wouldn't we? As a black bloke it's no surprise Les has noticed the issue and is willing to use his position accordingly. If that means giving an under qualified black manager the job, that's out of order. If it means being open to looking at black coaches that other clubs are wilfully ignoring, that's good for us.
Ramsey was arguably under qualified but IIRC correctly our first choice was Clement, who knocked us back, and Ramsey had done more than OK as caretaker; I don't think he got the job as some sort of positive discrimination, I think we were struggling to get anyone decent - for reasons I've already given - and Ramsey looked like a cheap and easy way out. It was a gamble that didn't work but not actually an expensive one.
You're entitled to think Moore is not as good a bet as Ainsworth - I'm 50:50 on that myself - but I think you're wildly unfair if you are implying that Les is only looking at him because he's black. His record at WBA means obviously we should look at him if he's interested. IMO it's more likely that the only reason he's interested is because we've got Les than the other way round. | | | |
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