| Leistner for Barbet 22:03 - Aug 21 with 11427 views | Hunterhoop |
An absolute must. Shambles of a performance from Barbet. The pen was rank stupidity. That’s now 3 goals in 3 games he’s been at fault for.
But that’s the obvious. Where was the great ball player? Lots of long diagonals a la Lynch. Where was he for their free header for the third? How many times was he beaten to the ball by their forward?
On current showing he’s neither quick, nor strong, nor good in the air, nor good at positioning, nor great at tackling. He’s competent on the ball but no more.
We will continue to concede 2+ a game with him and Hall. For all his faults, Leistner gets himself in the way and defends. We desperately need to be able to defend. On the ball we looked fine today and it wasn’t Barbet orchestrating things.
If Warburton is operating a meritocracy, Barber spends a few games on the bench. |  | | |  |
| Leistner for Barbet on 23:06 - Aug 21 with 1752 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Leistner for Barbet on 22:58 - Aug 21 by DannytheR |
Wallace's commanding presence in the defence?
Have you seen him play? |
Yes but not for QPR. There is a world out there you know. [Post edited 21 Aug 2019 23:06]
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| Leistner for Barbet on 23:08 - Aug 21 with 1740 views | DejR_vu |
| Leistner for Barbet on 22:12 - Aug 21 by BrianMcCarthy |
I think that drops us further back the pitch, Hunter, and our pressing and good football disappears.
I'd stick with Barbet and Hall for a bit longer, I think, and see if they can be coached to eradicate the mistakes. |
If BFG isn’t your cup of tea, play Ball, or Cameron with Ball as CDM. Or as soon as Wallace is fit play him at CB. Barbet is an absolute calamity. He’s more ballerina than footballer. |  |
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| Leistner for Barbet on 23:09 - Aug 21 with 1729 views | Pommyhoop |
You've read my mind Hunter.I've just mentioned on another group chat thingy( big shout out fellas) that my impression of Warburton rests on his reaction to the Barbet problem. |  |
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| Leistner for Barbet on 23:13 - Aug 21 with 1702 views | ridethewave |
| Leistner for Barbet on 22:51 - Aug 21 by Benny_the_Ball |
Because when Wallace is fit we'll need his commanding presence in the defence. Moving Manning accomodates Wallace but at the same time recognises Manning's good form by keeping him in the team (at the expense of Scowen who's been poor). Besides Manning is a midifleder first and foremost and can do a job there.
It's little use just hoping for protection at the back; changes are needed to provide that protection. Good teams are built from the back; once the defence is sorted then goals will follow. [Post edited 21 Aug 2019 22:54]
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I disagree that moving our best defender (so far) will improve our defence. The issue is, as the OP said, largely with Barbet’s individual errors. |  | | |
| Leistner for Barbet on 23:16 - Aug 21 with 1690 views | DannytheR |
| Leistner for Barbet on 23:01 - Aug 21 by Hunterhoop |
An incredibly unfair and unbalanced summary of Leistner last season. Most headed clearances in the league. You need to be in the right place at the right time to make those clearances.
Are our entire game is not based around one centre half. That’s a huge exaggeration. |
I don't dispute he can get rid of the ball. Where did those clearances end up? Mostly pinged back at us ten seconds later.
Like it or not, Warburton's style is specific enough that if you have the wrong players executing it, it just doesn't work that well. We can all see Scowen (a player I like a lot) can't play the role he's been given either, which is another big reason we're not quite clicking. Put Chair in and we look a million times better.
Barbet is a very cheap version of the kind of CB who Warburton obviously wants us to play with, so he makes mistakes. It's what you get with free transfers. Leistner on the other hand isn't that kind of CB at all, and never will be.
I'm not defending him for the penalty but a more fundamental problem tonight was that we didn't have a midfield worth the name. [Post edited 21 Aug 2019 23:18]
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| Leistner for Barbet on 23:20 - Aug 21 with 1674 views | Pommyhoop |
| Leistner for Barbet on 23:16 - Aug 21 by DannytheR |
I don't dispute he can get rid of the ball. Where did those clearances end up? Mostly pinged back at us ten seconds later.
Like it or not, Warburton's style is specific enough that if you have the wrong players executing it, it just doesn't work that well. We can all see Scowen (a player I like a lot) can't play the role he's been given either, which is another big reason we're not quite clicking. Put Chair in and we look a million times better.
Barbet is a very cheap version of the kind of CB who Warburton obviously wants us to play with, so he makes mistakes. It's what you get with free transfers. Leistner on the other hand isn't that kind of CB at all, and never will be.
I'm not defending him for the penalty but a more fundamental problem tonight was that we didn't have a midfield worth the name. [Post edited 21 Aug 2019 23:18]
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If Barbet wasn't ''Warburton's player' I'd agree with you. The Harry Redknapp era has completely put me off Managers employing certain players wherever they go and blindly sticking with them. | |
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| Leistner for Barbet on 23:49 - Aug 21 with 1608 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Leistner for Barbet on 23:08 - Aug 21 by DejR_vu |
If BFG isn’t your cup of tea, play Ball, or Cameron with Ball as CDM. Or as soon as Wallace is fit play him at CB. Barbet is an absolute calamity. He’s more ballerina than footballer. |
I like BFG a lot, but his lack of pace commits us to a style of play that hampers our attack. Cameron's no quicker. Ball, I really can't comment on.
Again, I'm not saying I have the answer, I'm just saying that if the answer is the BFG then we have another different question to answer. |  |
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| Leistner for Barbet on 00:07 - Aug 22 with 1562 views | PunteR |
In Warburton we trust. I think its a little early to change a game plan on the basis of individual errors, from players that were picked up on the cheap but to fit a certain style of play. They are going to make errors, its the standard we're at.
Im not convinced on Leistner. Very suspect on the ball and will play deeper, even if its only 4 - 5 yards its still deeper and will make a difference.
I've got to say though i havnt been overly impressed with Barbet , 2 pens given plus zero dead ball effectiveness so far but its still early days. He does seem comfortable on the ball and made some decent passes.
I'm not sure what the answer is but i'd hate to lose our style of play in favour of shoring up the back. We'll just have to score more goals.. :) |  |
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| Leistner for Barbet on 00:14 - Aug 22 with 1540 views | DejR_vu |
| Leistner for Barbet on 00:07 - Aug 22 by PunteR |
In Warburton we trust. I think its a little early to change a game plan on the basis of individual errors, from players that were picked up on the cheap but to fit a certain style of play. They are going to make errors, its the standard we're at.
Im not convinced on Leistner. Very suspect on the ball and will play deeper, even if its only 4 - 5 yards its still deeper and will make a difference.
I've got to say though i havnt been overly impressed with Barbet , 2 pens given plus zero dead ball effectiveness so far but its still early days. He does seem comfortable on the ball and made some decent passes.
I'm not sure what the answer is but i'd hate to lose our style of play in favour of shoring up the back. We'll just have to score more goals.. :) |
I don’t think we’d have to change the style of play if we played Wallace of Ball there.
BFG is a better player than he’s given credit for, although i agree he’s slow.
What we can’t do is carry a player that gives the opposition a goal in almost every game, that would just be stubborn. Barbet is an absolute liability. Even if he did have all of this mythical ability, he’s a defender first and foremost. If he can’t defend he’s worse than useless. | |
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| Leistner for Barbet on 00:28 - Aug 22 with 1515 views | oldmisery |
| Leistner for Barbet on 00:14 - Aug 22 by DejR_vu |
I don’t think we’d have to change the style of play if we played Wallace of Ball there.
BFG is a better player than he’s given credit for, although i agree he’s slow.
What we can’t do is carry a player that gives the opposition a goal in almost every game, that would just be stubborn. Barbet is an absolute liability. Even if he did have all of this mythical ability, he’s a defender first and foremost. If he can’t defend he’s worse than useless. |
Agree with all the criticism of Barbet and I can't see how MW can continue to play our new style of football if we are great in the middle of the park but poor at either end (again only 13% of our goal attempts were on target, as opposed to Swansea's 50%).
Considering Hall's overall size he has never been the most physical of defenders so pairing him with the least imposing Centre Back since Zesh Rehman, is clearly not going to produce many clean sheets. Cameron would be my first choice but he seems to have tweaked a hamstring tonight so it's unlikely he'll be fit for Saturday, I'd go with Leistner if we want physicality or Ball to meet the MW's requirements re: passing out of defence. | | | |
| Leistner for Barbet on 01:04 - Aug 22 with 1467 views | robith |
| Leistner for Barbet on 23:20 - Aug 21 by Pommyhoop |
If Barbet wasn't ''Warburton's player' I'd agree with you. The Harry Redknapp era has completely put me off Managers employing certain players wherever they go and blindly sticking with them. |
Barbet has never played under Warburton before - he joined Brentford after Warburton had left |  | | |
| Leistner for Barbet on 01:50 - Aug 22 with 1452 views | Pommyhoop |
| Leistner for Barbet on 01:04 - Aug 22 by robith |
Barbet has never played under Warburton before - he joined Brentford after Warburton had left |
 and twice
I stand corrected....
Damn that loop I'm no longer in... | |
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| Leistner for Barbet on 03:46 - Aug 22 with 1403 views | ozexile |
If this is true and having Leistner at the back means the game is stretched more from front to back tgeb that should suit Eze, Bos, chair. It will give them more space to operate in.
Every cloud. | | | |
| Leistner for Barbet on 07:48 - Aug 22 with 1270 views | PunteR |
| Leistner for Barbet on 03:46 - Aug 22 by ozexile |
If this is true and having Leistner at the back means the game is stretched more from front to back tgeb that should suit Eze, Bos, chair. It will give them more space to operate in.
Every cloud. |
I think Eze works better in tighter spaces. He likes to draw players in. Same with Chair. BOS looks like a proper winger that likes to run into space. | |
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| Leistner for Barbet on 08:06 - Aug 22 with 1235 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Leistner for Barbet on 07:48 - Aug 22 by PunteR |
I think Eze works better in tighter spaces. He likes to draw players in. Same with Chair. BOS looks like a proper winger that likes to run into space. |
I agree. This style suits Eze and Chair perfectly. | |
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| Leistner for Barbet on 08:19 - Aug 22 with 1214 views | RblockPrior |
No words can explain how angry I was (still am) at Barbet, for him to dive in like that cost us the game and there is literally no excuse for him to do that. In such a short time with us he has made some massive mistakes all of which have hurt us badly.
When we got the goal there was only going to be one winner, we had been pinning them back from the start of the 2nd half, worked hard to get back into the game only for him to ruin it with a crazy decision to lunge in on someone that was surrounded by QPR players and would have had to play away from the box. For me he has to be dropped for Leistner who is no where near as bad as people make out, he is solid and can spray a pass. I don't buy that we would play alot deeper, Barbet isn't exactly fast |  |
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| Leistner for Barbet on 08:23 - Aug 22 with 1206 views | californiahoop |
| Leistner for Barbet on 22:25 - Aug 21 by Benny_the_Ball |
I'm glad you said it Hunter because I know you pride yourself on central defensive know-how. I've been very underwhelmed with Barbet for all the reasons you cited but what I found incredulous on Saturday was the lack of acknowledgement for his part in the second goal. Yes Rangel shouldn't have thrown the ball back and yes Lumley made a hash of the clearance but Barbet took no responsibility at all and rather threw Joe under the bus by allowing the ball to simply run through.
Hall may have the armband but he has just returned from a lengthy lay-off and needs time to get up-to-speed. In the meantime, he needs a leader alongside him that will have his back and do the simple things well. If not Leistner, then Cameron could slot into central defence with Scowen ratting. Once Wallace is fit he could take the left back spot with Manning replacing Scowen in defensive midfield. |
Manning has to get back into that MF for sure, the two loan players are very similar and only one needs to play, 3 at the back give us protection, need two il top, Wells or Chair are goal threats so have to be on the pitch.
The good things is, we have the personnel in house to change things, it will just take time. | | | |
| Leistner for Barbet on 08:27 - Aug 22 with 1196 views | connell10 |
| Leistner for Barbet on 08:19 - Aug 22 by RblockPrior |
No words can explain how angry I was (still am) at Barbet, for him to dive in like that cost us the game and there is literally no excuse for him to do that. In such a short time with us he has made some massive mistakes all of which have hurt us badly.
When we got the goal there was only going to be one winner, we had been pinning them back from the start of the 2nd half, worked hard to get back into the game only for him to ruin it with a crazy decision to lunge in on someone that was surrounded by QPR players and would have had to play away from the box. For me he has to be dropped for Leistner who is no where near as bad as people make out, he is solid and can spray a pass. I don't buy that we would play alot deeper, Barbet isn't exactly fast |
Totally agree , that stupid rash tackle was a game changer. I had my doubts about Barbet a few weeks ago but didnt post anything up as i didnt want to be seen as scapegoating , but to me he looks gash as a defender. |  |
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| Leistner for Barbet on 08:47 - Aug 22 with 1167 views | DannyPaddox |
So should we be patient with the present defensive line-up or do we throw the Barbet out with the bath water and bring the German in from the cold? Can Ball play central-defence? Can Masterson get up to speed for a first team place? Do we go after the Ginger Ramos again in January? Questions questions questions. Still I’m enjoying the football for the first time in years. |  | | |
| Leistner for Barbet on 08:54 - Aug 22 with 1139 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Leistner for Barbet on 08:47 - Aug 22 by DannyPaddox |
So should we be patient with the present defensive line-up or do we throw the Barbet out with the bath water and bring the German in from the cold? Can Ball play central-defence? Can Masterson get up to speed for a first team place? Do we go after the Ginger Ramos again in January? Questions questions questions. Still I’m enjoying the football for the first time in years. |
I’d stick not twist.
Leistner is great but
A) is Probably pissed off
B) would not contribute to the impressive distribution from defence as well.
We have a consistent system for the first time in ages! The immense Stoke Barbet was only four games ago. |  | | |
| Leistner for Barbet on 09:04 - Aug 22 with 1123 views | R_from_afar |
| Leistner for Barbet on 22:21 - Aug 21 by Hunterhoop |
Firstly, Leistner is nowhere near the Neanderthal on the ball common narrative makes out.
Secondly, Barbet makes far fewer “marauding runs” than people think.
Thirdly, he’s not very quick. Exhibit A: the Huddersfield goal. Exhibit B: the late challenge (a few strides before he dived) for the pen today. But he also got turned today and there were two close offsides he coukdb’t Get back for.
Fourthly, how many times did our “pressing” win possession in their half today? We ween’t so high as to condense the pitch and enable it. We might be a yard or two deeper, which given how often teams are getting in behind is no bad thing, but we’re not talking about going from a defensive line on the half way line to the edge of our box.
Fifthly, the 3rd today came from a cross from the byline. 3 defenders in the box by my count; one forward. Not one within 3 yards of him.
You can play a pressing game and pass out as much as you like, but you have to be able to defend. It is not a simple narrative of one or the other. We’re not talking about needing to be Van Dijk at the back, just competent.
I’m sure we will continue to look pretty, but if we need to score 2 a game to collect any points, we will go down. Then decide how important the high line he plays is. |
You raise an interesting point re. our pressing. I watch a lot of football and still play too and it is clear to me that many people don't understand what pressing *properly* actually entails. You have to be so in the face of your man that you hinder their attempts to pass the ball, move with it, or receive it. Doing it properly requires sticking very close, closing down relentlessly and putting in a lot of running. Do it half-heartedly and you play into the opposition's hands by putting lots of your players in their half, with a big space behind those players which leaves you very exposed.
On the Leistner front, he was at CB during our excellent run last season and is much better than the footballing dinosaur that some make him out to be. If he has some pace next to him, he should be OK. He is our best defender. He had some poor games last season but was asked to play while carrying a knock quite a few times. |  |
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| Leistner for Barbet on 09:13 - Aug 22 with 1096 views | RblockPrior |
| Leistner for Barbet on 08:47 - Aug 22 by DannyPaddox |
So should we be patient with the present defensive line-up or do we throw the Barbet out with the bath water and bring the German in from the cold? Can Ball play central-defence? Can Masterson get up to speed for a first team place? Do we go after the Ginger Ramos again in January? Questions questions questions. Still I’m enjoying the football for the first time in years. |
For me we have to drop him, I would bring Leistner or Ball.
IMO and thats all it is, if a player is making multiple mistakes there has to be a reaction to that by the manager as for me it gives the wrong signal out to other players that you can play poorly make mistakes yet still keep your place, also the player can become complacent as they feel they position in the side is secure.
With the squad we have, we can have that competition for places and someone can fill in when another is failing | |
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| Leistner for Barbet on 09:14 - Aug 22 with 1093 views | ingeminate |
| Leistner for Barbet on 09:04 - Aug 22 by R_from_afar |
You raise an interesting point re. our pressing. I watch a lot of football and still play too and it is clear to me that many people don't understand what pressing *properly* actually entails. You have to be so in the face of your man that you hinder their attempts to pass the ball, move with it, or receive it. Doing it properly requires sticking very close, closing down relentlessly and putting in a lot of running. Do it half-heartedly and you play into the opposition's hands by putting lots of your players in their half, with a big space behind those players which leaves you very exposed.
On the Leistner front, he was at CB during our excellent run last season and is much better than the footballing dinosaur that some make him out to be. If he has some pace next to him, he should be OK. He is our best defender. He had some poor games last season but was asked to play while carrying a knock quite a few times. |
I’ve always thought Leistner was pretty decent on the ball.
A complaint previous club’s had about Warburton is he’s inflexible with no plan b. Let’s see. |  |
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| Leistner for Barbet on 09:28 - Aug 22 with 1064 views | westberksr |
However elegant Barbet looks on the ball he needs to defend first and foremost. As others have pointed out he already has a collection of assists to the opposition that are worryingly high.
Leinster may be slower but his defending is head and shoulders above Barbet's on the displays so far. Angel's shitte throw would have been cleared in some fashion, he would most likely not dived in like a centre forward tackling for the pen past night & there is every chance the free header would have be nullified too.
regarding the team shape and distribution lets not forget that last year we had full backs that were either not as comfortable on the ball (Furlong/ Bidwell) another center back (Lynch) who was as slow and a liability. With the current line up he has potentially better ball players around him so that responsibility can be shared. With a young and lightweight midfield (bar Cameron) another steady head wouldn't be a bad idea either.
I'm biased; as a CB of over 40 years i save my arsing around and silly stuff to 5 a side but when its full matches we are there to defend first; talk, organise and lead. After a keeper, a CB cock up is usually the most expensive. Eradicate the errors first and then build from there; Barbet is getting towards his being hooked for the sake of the good work going on elsewhere.
effectively starting every game a goal down is bloody hard work |  | | |
| Leistner for Barbet on 09:43 - Aug 22 with 1031 views | rsonist |
Personally I still want to see where Plan A (Done Better) goes. Hopefully MW works Barbet hammer and tongs for the rest of the week and starts him Saturday. |  | | |
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