Forum | Tweaks we need to become top 6? by PinnerPaul

Forum index | Previous Thread | Next thread

Tweaks we need to become top 6? 13:14 - Sep 5 with 3788 views

We've discussed goals against and the defence, but notable (Stoke excepted) that our 2nd half performances are so much better than 1st.

Why is this - are Eze/Chair/Wells/Hugill better against tired defenders?

Do we need to be more adventurous 1st half?

Certainly Eze/Chair have seemed so much better 2nd half, not least because service they get seems to improve as game goes on.

Certainly something we need to work on, can't KEEP conceding 1st as we are doing.

Thoughts?

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 13:30 - Sep 5 with 3124 views

CliveWilsonSaid

Maybe the first half to second half improvement is that we’ve got a young side that hasn’t been together very long so take a while to get going. They do however have talent and desire which tends to win through.

I also think a lot of credit needs to go to Warbs and the coaching staff as the football being played is a cut above. Dare I say it credit to Les too?

Still early days but very promising start.

Poll:

Expectations for this season?

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 13:57 - Sep 5 with 3050 views

Northernr

In our favour - the division is crap. Even by Championship standards it's appalling this season.

Against us - you don't go very far conceding goals at the rate we are.

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 18:47 - Sep 5 with 2893 views

Dorse

We're going to continue conceding if we can't identify why. It's not enough to say that Player X is crap because we can't replace them anyway, so where are we going wrong?

4231 is Warburton's go-to starting formation but we have also played 352 successfully (for a game and a half). I like 352, as I have said ad nauseum, but we can still be undone by the angled ball through the outside left / right channel due to the pace of our centre backs. 4231 notionally solves that problem but we end up lighter in attack as the full backs hang back to cover.

Rock, paper, scissors and all that. However, I honestly think that we're a gnat's cock away from getting the balance right, at which time we'll dish out a savage beating the likes of which hasn't been seen since Frank Bruno faced Stephen Hawking in a charity boxing match for Comic Relief.

'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!'

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 19:01 - Sep 5 with 2864 views

PinnerPaul

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 13:57 - Sep 5 by Northernr
In our favour - the division is crap. Even by Championship standards it's appalling this season. Against us - you don't go very far conceding goals at the rate we are.

Interesting Clive.

Interesting - Why do you say the Championship is poor this season?

As I have said before to those who say the opposite - every season there are:

3 relegated clubs from the PL
2 sides who lost in the play offs
3 sides promoted from league 1
x sides still with PL parachute payments

I guess Huddersfield/Stoke (so far)have answered the first one!, but interested what makes this year's crop worse than average for you?

-1

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 19:16 - Sep 5 with 2840 views

oldmisery

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 18:47 - Sep 5 by Dorse

Remind me again, in which round did Hawking knock him out?

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 19:48 - Sep 5 with 2789 views

kensalriser

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 18:47 - Sep 5 by Dorse

Ah, another sighting of the apocryphal 'we'll give someone a hiding soon' claim that never quite seems to be borne out.

Poll:

QPR to finish 7th or Brentford to drop out of the top 6?

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 09:01 - Sep 6 with 2579 views

Dorse

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 19:16 - Sep 5 by oldmisery
Remind me again, in which round did Hawking knock him out?

The ref stepped in after Hawking put him down three times in the second. Vicious uppercut, right cross combo.

'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!'

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 11:27 - Sep 6 with 2487 views

JJB

Stop giving away daft pens would be a start.

	Remember The White City Fighting?
Poll:	Would you like to see the return of Mr Warnock?

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 11:51 - Sep 6 with 2458 views

ElHoop

3-5-2 seems to suit us and I prefer it to 4-2-3-1 anyway, but we only have three proper strikers on our books and very few central defenders, so it's difficult to see us maintaining this formation unless we are very lucky with injuries. If we play one up top then I don't think that we'll score enough goals. I like the idea of Cameron in the middle of a back three and that might keep him free from injury for a bit longer.

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 13:40 - Sep 6 with 2367 views

Northernr

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 19:01 - Sep 5 by PinnerPaul

Several big clubs that either had very deep pockets, or were exceptionally well run and had been building towards promotion for a long time, and dominated the division, have gone - Wolves, Newcastle, Brighton, Villa, Norwich. Leeds are probably as close as we have to that now and they're a thousand miles away from the teams those five went up with.

Of the clubs relegated to replace them, with the biggest parachute money, several are in various degrees of mess - Stoke, Huddersfield, Middlesbrough. You'd ordinarily expect them to at least be top half of the table. Holding the line on West Brom, who really have to go back this year or start throwing things overboard, and Cardiff, who I thought would storm it this year but look suspect. And Fulham for that matter.

Several clubs that think they're massive and have been spending big trying to get there have come up short and are now also in various degrees of mess - Derby losing Mount, Wilson, Lampard, the Chelsea defender without replacement; Sheff Wed; Birmingham; holding the line on Forest.

Despite Charlton's good start, non of the promoted teams last year or this look remotely capable of doing the sort of Sheff Utd, Wigan, Brighton, Wolves double promotions we've seen in semi-recent times.

FFP, whether clubs have ignored it or not, is starting to bite into the quality of player clubs can afford at this level. Grealish, Mitrovic, Abraham, Mount, Wilson, Jota (Wolves), Neves, Maddison, Shelvey all played in the Championship between 2016 and 2018. This year there's only really Mitrovic and Cairney (off the top of my head) where I look and think 'fck what's he doing at this level?'

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 13:54 - Sep 6 with 2327 views

Hastings_Hoops

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 11:51 - Sep 6 by ElHoop

Wallace can play in the back 3 as can Cameron - not ideal, but we have a couple oven-ready to step in if needed. I would also see 3 at the back as an opportunity to safely introduce one of our youngsters in the right game at the right time next to Hall and Leistner.

Warburton (as with Gerry Francis) is someone who seems to be trustworthy in re-generating the family silver...I've posted elsewhere that if we get a decent offer (£15m+ ?) for Eze in January, the Club should look to bring in a couple of young, solid CB's who fit Warburton's style of play. Maybe also a striker from League One.

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 14:07 - Sep 6 with 2294 views

plasmahoop

It's going pretty well so far, but let's not get carried away. We were looking good last December, but then declined appallingly in the second half of the season. There are so many things that can go wrong. Hopefully they won't, but let's try to maintain a it of an equilibrium

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 14:15 - Sep 6 with 2276 views

ElHoop

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 13:54 - Sep 6 by Hastings_Hoops

Will Wallace ever be fit though, and how long for? I can't believe that 3-5-2 was the original plan but we are where we are. It's the opposite of what Redknapp wanted to do when he started off wanting 3-5-2 and got rid of our solid right back and then went 4-4-2 with no right back. Furlong would have been very useful as a floating defender in a 3-5-2.

If we sell Eze then it has to be in the summer - it's hard to get what you want for a reasonable fee in January, especially with your £15m in hand - we'd get ripped off.

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 14:16 - Sep 6 with 2271 views

Pommyhoop

WOW.
Tough Crowd...

	http://cdn.meme.am/instances/250x250/55039027.jpg
Poll:	How much should we sell Eze for. What will we get.

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 15:48 - Sep 6 with 2221 views

Dorse

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 14:16 - Sep 6 by Pommyhoop
WOW. Tough Crowd...

You should hear us at funerals.

'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!'

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 16:47 - Sep 6 with 2161 views

W7Ranger

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 13:40 - Sep 6 by Northernr

Harry Arter and Anthony Knockaert?

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 17:42 - Sep 6 with 2113 views

PinnerPaul

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 13:40 - Sep 6 by Northernr

Fair enough - good answer!

Play offs here we come then!

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 17:47 - Sep 6 with 2110 views

kensalriser

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 15:48 - Sep 6 by Dorse
You should hear us at funerals.

"Let him die let him die let him die..."

Poll:

QPR to finish 7th or Brentford to drop out of the top 6?

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 17:56 - Sep 6 with 2098 views

paulparker

I’d still take staying up TBH

And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles Brian Moore

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 20:53 - Sep 6 with 1958 views

Northernr

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 16:47 - Sep 6 by W7Ranger
Harry Arter and Anthony Knockaert?

Knockaert maybe, certainly a few years ago.
Arter?! My eyebrow is raised.

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 01:10 - Sep 7 with 1806 views

timcocking

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 19:01 - Sep 5 by PinnerPaul

Three poor ex premier league sides, some poor promoted sides and some worse than normal in the division. Last year the Championship had teams like Villa and Newcastle.

Won't make much difference, but probably fair to say it would make a bit. Not every year is equal.

Mind you, for a month we were the best team in the division last year!

[Post edited 7 Sep 2019 1:12]

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 15:40 - Sep 7 with 1601 views

Neil_SI

We've conceded a lot of soft goals this season and they cover broadly these areas:

- Lapses in concentration when defending set plays (corners, etc)
- Bad individual errors or mistakes
- Positional and structural issues when hit on the counter attack

The lapses in concentration when defending set plays can be worked on and improved on the training ground, but is also in part, because it's a new team. They're still learning about one another's mentality and who is likely to take responsibility in these situations.

Hopefully it's something we can improve on, but Wigan were allowed a soft goal from a cross to put us one behind on a very warm day and we almost conceded another in similar circumstances just a few minutes later.

The bad individual errors or mistakes can bleed into either of the other two points, but is particularly important when it relates to being hit on the counter attack. This is another area where the players still need time to bed in and gel, as well as get used to what Mark Warburton wants, as well as some of them simply being inexperienced.

This is where we need to offer most support to the players, but also where we need them to wisen up quickly because they've made a lot of mistakes this season that they've not been punished by on top of the many they have been.

Matt Smith was caught out against Swansea trying to make a forward pass, which left us wide open on the counter attack and we conceded. He'd already made a couple of telling mistakes throughout that first half and it cost us both in defence and attack. But, he's just a young boy and therefore getting on top of him isn't going to help the situation. What we do need though is the experienced players to guide the youngsters through these moments. When you've already made a mistake and gotten away with it, just make sure they take a bit more care and weigh up the risk versus reward in the context of the match and to work on their game management.

The third aspect, the structural issues, are the key ones. It's hard to tell how they will unfold, because when we're on form and flying we'll be a handful, but when we're exposed and countered, we're in trouble for different reasons.

We're playing with extremely attacking full backs, which I very much like and enjoy. I think it's exciting and entertaining to watch, but it can also be wild. The wide players are bombing on and leaving the defence exposed if we lose the ball. There's so much space to be hit on the counter that it only takes a side with some nous and a bit of quality to take advantage.

The key issues here are who does what? If we have a midfield two of say Luke Amos and Geoff Cameron, should it be they who cover the full backs, or should it be someone else? Do we want
Amos running around and tracking back, or on the ball and trying to make things happen?

Do we want Cameron, with older legs, having to scurry around and cover? How does this soften the middle of the pitch up as well? Does it actually take away protection from the core central part of the defence? If one of the centre backs go, does that still leave us too exposed?

When you mix this in with the type of attacking players we have, such as Bright, Eze, Chair, etc - they're not renown for their defensive prowess and nor should they be. Eze has done really well this season though with tracking back and pitching in when needed at times. But, it's almost a shame to see him all the way back there doing that when we want him further up the pitch and affecting play and doing damage down the other end.

So for me, it's putting these pieces of the puzzle together. When you lose the ball, what should the shape look like, and who goes where and deals with what scenario? That's the same question whether it's 4-2-3-1 or 3-5-2, etc.

A lot of people have been criticising Barbet this season, and he has made some silly blunders like the rash tackle for the penalty against Swansea. But, I actually think he's been excellent in so many other moments defensively, where the defence have been left exposed and left in too many dangerous or awkward 1:1 scenarios that for the large part they've come out on top. The Bristol City game was a fine example of that, I thought he was MOTM for most of it, and unfortunately it was Grant Hall who headed a ball straight out down the middle for their player to volley it in and then we had the throw-in debacle (see individual mistakes, of which there were three in succession)

But if you keep putting them at that risk, more mistakes or bad decisions will happen, and reducing the probability of all this is what will determine whether we can be successful or not and my gripe this season so far is, most of the goals we've conceded have literally been gifts (and a shame when we've been playing well and seemingly conceding against the run of play). The opposition are barely having to work for theirs and yet we're having to generally work quite hard for ours.

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 15:49 - Sep 7 with 1589 views

daveB

I think we are to weak at the back to challenge the top 6 but it's certainly been a promising start and we are very exciting going forward

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 16:02 - Sep 7 with 1567 views

loftus77

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 17:56 - Sep 6 by paulparker
I’d still take staying up TBH

Tweaks we need to become top 6? on 16:17 - Sep 7 with 1553 views

Esox_Lucius

Some of the silly goals have been the direct result of silly refereeing decisions, you can't account for that in your match day tactics.

The grass is always greener.

Forum index | Previous Thread | Next thread