| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 14:00 - Nov 11 with 2254 views | Antti_Heinola |
The gloomy inevitability of another two goals left me resigned, reduced to a grim empty vessel, floating along in the misery of the South Africa Road stand, buffeted by shouts of 'forward', 'wake up' and 'anything other than total domination and a 46-game winning streak is not good enough for me' until I exited the ground to a torrent of grimy p!ss, streaming down from the grey west London skies, the cold, needle-like droplets skinning my fair cheeks and forcing me to wonder: has Adam Clayton been playing for Middlesbrough since 1973, oris that my imagination?
1. DEFENCE: I don't know. I have nothing new to say on the matter. Can we defend? I'm not sure. I think blaming us for not being able to defend doesn't quite stand up when the two goals we conceded, like so many goals this season, were not down to a defence unable to withstand quick passing or lots of pressure or high balls into the box, but by a wing back winning the ball then deciding not to collect the ball, and a striker deciding to play the ultimate assist, just to the wrong man in the wrong team at the wrong end. That's not about defending. Is it? Or is it the inevitable consequence of us trying to play football at all times? Even though in both those circumstances, pressure was not strong on the man making the mistake, is 96 minutes of high-risk football so much that, while we're actually far more comfortable doing it than what sounds like 95% of an extraordinarily screechy, jittery crowd who can't stand anything other than a big ol' hoof up the pitch, unless that is an actual tactic employed, in which case they'll tell you they love intricta epassing football, the law of averages means we'll always make two catastrophic errors that almost inevitably result in goals? I have no clue.
The only thing I will say is this: already the usual suspects are out. The Twitters are explodng. The Insta is imploding. The Facebook (is anyone still on that? How? Why?) is probably self-mutiilating. The same old posters who are fed up of any manager within three months are already beginning their lengthy campaign, as endless as the US political cycle, for change. For change may bring the one who will change it all and magically develop us into the club that we were. Once. For about 12 months. Rather than the one we are now, which is the one we have, on average, been for most of any of our lifetimes. But as we watch Liverpool conquer Europe and smash the double-champions and triple-crown winners into funny little light blue pieces, we all forget, don't we, how it was before the Coming of Virgil. When Liverpool, like us, tore everyone apart but constantly shipped goals. Their incredible yacht, so beautiful, yet a hull made of patched-up cling film. Are we going to be the new Liverpool? No. Are our defenwsive problems magically going to end? No. But as we have a manager who knows what he is doing, has made a side that created about one chance in a game into one that creates about 10 per game, can we just try not to go too hard on recriminations? Can we not get too upset about what he says in an interview when it doesn't tally precisely to what exactly we think he should say, even if saying that would be rank stupidity? Can we all calm down at games a bit? Can we all try enjoying it a bit more? Please?
2. HUGILL: There's been some great posts on here since Saturday, from Brian Mc, plus measured, sensible ones from jonno and gazza, and some great thoughts from Hunter. I'm usually on Hunter's side, but I wouldn't go quite as far as he did. I don't think, for example, that you should radically alter your game because it's rainy. I also don't think we should radically alter our game because we have a new back three - it's not like they're strangers, they see each other every day. But I was surprised that Hugill did not start for a whole load of reasons. I think he's playing well. I think Boro have a huge team, although not quite as ludicrously huge as they were last year, and we could've done with Hugill doing some bullying and some hold-up play. And there's also the fact it's his old club, his home town club, and superstition tells us he'll probably score if given most of the game (as it was, he could, maybe should, have had two). I don't think we should start abandoning the way we play - it needs to be tweaked of course, and practised, but to get better at a style you don't abandon it when things get tough. It works. We score a lot of goals. Teams are afraid of us. But it does seem odd to me that Hugill didn't start this one. His strength and power and ability to at least win a few balls in the air would have been invaluable. Still, I like to look at reasons why. Wells is on fire, scoring most weeks. So if you keep him, a midfielder has to go. You need Ball or a Ball-type. He wants to get Amos back in, I think, to help the back three or four have someone in the middle who will show for it and take it under pressure. I get that. It can't be Eze. So it's Chair. But take Chair out and we're left with one creative midfielder, who the oppo will then likely double mark, knowing his options are few. So I disagreed with it - but it's worth looking for reasons why, sometimes.
3. PLAN B: In my experience, people who talk about a Plan B mean a willingness to boot it randomly up the pitch and hope something happens. I've seen a few comments with Plan B coming up, the odd bit of pining for last year's Matt Smith. But it's a waste of time. MW will never play like this except maybe in utter desperation in the last minutes of a do or die game. That he doesn't do this does not make him inflexible, in my opinion. He's a man who understands the game and what is *most likely* to work. So strap in.
4. BALL: Really impressed with Bally on Saturday. I thought Amos was perhaps the only one in the chaotic opening minutes to show some real bite - two big, crunching tackles from him set the sort of tone we like to see. But it was Ball who played in that manner for longer. The big improvement for me was his touch on the ball - he controlled it well, shielded it well, and looked for the right pass every time. He may not be the best player we have, but he looks bulletproof in terms of belief and confidence. Never hides, always fights. Good to have around.
5. EZE: Customary Eze jerk. Thought he was great again. That late run, from the edge of his box, where he rode an assassination attempt from someone who didn't seem to get booked, and was only ended by a desperate foul just outside the box, was superb. He's becoming a leader, now, like Freeman did. Tiring of everyone else's failures, he finally just decided it was encumbent upon him to sort this mess out - and he very nearly did. Now basically playing centre midfield, working hard, yet as cool as a glacier throughout, never rushed, always seeing the bigger picture. Absolute gem.
6. LUMLEY: I think Kelly looks a decent keeper. I think Lummers is a decent keeper. Not really sure if there's much between them, but I wasn't sad when I saw his name on the teamsheet, and I thought he played very well in tough conditins. He punched when he had to, could do nothing about the goals and shambles in front of him, and his kicking was assured, despite the panic in the stands. Real fight on for that spot in goal. |  |
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| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 14:54 - Nov 11 with 2147 views | BklynRanger |
Yeah agree with all of that. Particularly share the thoughts of the defence paragraph. We do still seem to put ourselves under unecessary pressure at times that require a bit of diving and lungeing, and I felt that Well's pass was very slightly related to that. But still - two terrible errors when two goals probably should have been enough against what I thought was a very poor side.
The Eze run was fantastic - a different level in terms of quality and he really can shift. Without being gratuitously negative, it was such a pity that he did get fouled - we so rarely score from free kicks that it just felt inevitable that all we'd get there was two more minutes off the clock when Eze might well have scored a truly memorable goal from open play. |  | | |
| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 15:01 - Nov 11 with 2132 views | PinnerPaul |
I would say that in T block and coming out after the game, people were pretty realistic.
I heard the words 'fair result though' at least half a dozen times on Saturday. |  | | |
| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 15:16 - Nov 11 with 2100 views | paulparker |
Our defence couldn’t sense danger If they had a Bunson burner under their feet
I’ve given up on the amount of sloppy goals given away this season considering the experience we have there
We looked slow and jittery at the back yet again there are no excuses
They were there for the taking and Warburton got his selection wrong imo only having wells on his own was a bit silly
Didn’t think the atmosphere was good either maybes it’s the slow build up from the back ?
Also why do we start games at a snails pace ? We seemed half a sleep on Saturday from the kick off and have the ball away to cheaply
Happy to take a point in the end |  |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 15:19 - Nov 11 with 2087 views | TacticalR |
1. DEFENCE. I don't have anything new to add either. Our defence looks mushy at the best of times and the constant changes aren't helping. I also don't see why our artistic team should have to play on rainy days. Did Toulouse-Lautrec have to work in the rain?
'I think blaming us for not being able to defend doesn't quite stand up when the two goals we conceded, like so many goals this season, were not down to a defence unable to withstand quick passing or lots of pressure or high balls into the box, but by a wing back winning the ball then deciding not to collect the ball'.
One of the difficulties of 5 at the back is that there is a potential grey area of player responsibility. This can lead to players treading on each other toes, or to the opposite case of players like Isla completely vacating the area. This was previously discussed here:
2. HUGILL. In retrospect it might have been better if he was on from the start. Then again it might not have worked if Middlesbrough had cut off the supply to the front men.
3. PLAN B. Wellying it doesn't work now and it didn't work when we had Matt Smith.
5. EZE. Always fantastic to watch and occasionally mesmerises the opposition. Whenever he gets substituted we look very limited.
6. LUMLEY. I was happy to see Lumley back but he still doesn't look quite himself at the moment, although that might have been the rain. |  |
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| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 15:29 - Nov 11 with 2065 views | kensalriser |
Can't help feeling we've had our little purple patch and now we're facing the reality of the long hard grind of a full Championship season. I said a couple of weeks ago that when a goal drought happens we will drop like a stone, but we've scored 3 in 3 games and are dropping like a stone anyway. Puts all the slightly over exuberant 'best football we've played in 50 years' stuff in perspective.
Still, we are miles ahead of where I feared we'd be and if Warburton can get a handle on the goals conceded situation we should be good for a top half finish. |  |
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| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 15:44 - Nov 11 with 2037 views | HantsR |
Glad you've mentioned that late run from Eze - I so wanted him to score from that run in particular as the young chap behind me had been voicing his (unwanted) analysis throughout the game, loudly declaring that Eze was having a terrible game and should be substituted  It would have been so nice in so many ways if he'd scored.
There were a couple of other high points for me, both from Chair. I loved it when he flicked the ball back over his head to beat his minder and set up a chance - also, that little flick on the left wing to let the ball run on towards the corner and turned to beat his man for speed. |  | | |
| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 16:11 - Nov 11 with 1998 views | derbyhoop |
The defensive errors are obvious for all to see. But, it seems to boil down to individual errors, rather than something more systemic.However, there is no pace at the back, which, possibly, means we play a bit deeper than we should and that opens up gaps between the back 3/4/5 and the midfield.
I think Warburton is as frustrated as any fans. But, he's not going to chew people out in public. He needs to find a system that works and drill that defence week after week. Obviously not helped by injuries to Barbet and Lesitner. |  |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 16:46 - Nov 11 with 1923 views | 1MoreBrightonR |
guy behind me, who is pretty negative normally, spent the 10 mins after they got their second with his head in his hands staring at the floor. literally refused to watch the game...quite a few of us spotted it and it was funny, but also so crazy. Its frustrating but the way some fans treat anything but a win as a disaster baffles me. | | | |
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| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 16:53 - Nov 11 with 1920 views | Esox_Lucius |
I had a bit of a think about this seasons style of play and how the possession based passing isn't doing us a lot of favours at the back at the moment. Smegma, and others, may be able to confirm this but last season or the season before Paul Hall said in an interview that winning games wasn't as important as the performance of the players in the academy teams. He also stated that it was his ambition to have all the teams play in the same style as the first team so that their path to a spot in the squad wouldn't be impeded by having to change thair style. This has been evidenced this season, and a little bit last season, by the number of our academy players being in the first team squad.
Leaving the above as a given we come on to the way that the first team play, short snappy passes and try to create space for counterattacks when we can. An admirable tactic but we can all see that at times it just ends up with fans barracking the players from the stands as the team fails to move the ball forward and getting pressured into mistakes.
I asked myself, why would MW persist with this tactic when it is so fraught with danger and, if we are to believe that he didn't land all his targets before the first game in August, doesn't have the personnel to execute this style as well as we all may like. We also have a number of interviews with Lee Hoos on record where he states firmly that the club has to become self sufficient and this will mean selling our players to generate much needed funds. We then look at the players we have for sale and which ones are the most likely to generate the highest return. The clubs splashing the most out on players are those who are much better at playing the style of football we play and this may be the key to what the club and MW are trying to do. Industrial defenders are far more common in the lower leagues and don't go for a lot of money, attacking, skillful defenders command a much higher premium as do similarly gifted midfielders.
Perhaps, and this is just an idea in my head, the first team are being considered in the same light as the academy teams whereby we coach them to play a style of play that is in demand by the big spenders in the hope that we can get away with only selling one or two players to generate a good amount of money rather than punting out half the team just to tread water financially. As long as we don't look like getting relegated MW and the club will persevere with the way we are playing in an attempt to make the players the type of footballers that are in demand.
I am not going to get upset if I get pulled to pieces on this so have at it; I am just trying to line this all up in my head as this is my stab at reasoning it out.
I also feel that having a properly settled and fit defence may well have made a huge difference too but we just don't seem able to field the same team each week as we did earlier in the season. [Post edited 11 Nov 2019 20:28]
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| The grass is always greener. |
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| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 17:24 - Nov 11 with 1868 views | PinnerPaul |
| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 15:29 - Nov 11 by kensalriser |
Can't help feeling we've had our little purple patch and now we're facing the reality of the long hard grind of a full Championship season. I said a couple of weeks ago that when a goal drought happens we will drop like a stone, but we've scored 3 in 3 games and are dropping like a stone anyway. Puts all the slightly over exuberant 'best football we've played in 50 years' stuff in perspective.
Still, we are miles ahead of where I feared we'd be and if Warburton can get a handle on the goals conceded situation we should be good for a top half finish. |
I wouldn't say 2 points from the play offs is 'dropping like a stone' | | | |
| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 19:02 - Nov 11 with 1754 views | jonno |
| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 16:53 - Nov 11 by Esox_Lucius |
I had a bit of a think about this seasons style of play and how the possession based passing isn't doing us a lot of favours at the back at the moment. Smegma, and others, may be able to confirm this but last season or the season before Paul Hall said in an interview that winning games wasn't as important as the performance of the players in the academy teams. He also stated that it was his ambition to have all the teams play in the same style as the first team so that their path to a spot in the squad wouldn't be impeded by having to change thair style. This has been evidenced this season, and a little bit last season, by the number of our academy players being in the first team squad.
Leaving the above as a given we come on to the way that the first team play, short snappy passes and try to create space for counterattacks when we can. An admirable tactic but we can all see that at times it just ends up with fans barracking the players from the stands as the team fails to move the ball forward and getting pressured into mistakes.
I asked myself, why would MW persist with this tactic when it is so fraught with danger and, if we are to believe that he didn't land all his targets before the first game in August, doesn't have the personnel to execute this style as well as we all may like. We also have a number of interviews with Lee Hoos on record where he states firmly that the club has to become self sufficient and this will mean selling our players to generate much needed funds. We then look at the players we have for sale and which ones are the most likely to generate the highest return. The clubs splashing the most out on players are those who are much better at playing the style of football we play and this may be the key to what the club and MW are trying to do. Industrial defenders are far more common in the lower leagues and don't go for a lot of money, attacking, skillful defenders command a much higher premium as do similarly gifted midfielders.
Perhaps, and this is just an idea in my head, the first team are being considered in the same light as the academy teams whereby we coach them to play a style of play that is in demand by the big spenders in the hope that we can get away with only selling one or two players to generate a good amount of money rather than punting out half the team just to tread water financially. As long as we don't look like getting relegated MW and the club will persevere with the way we are playing in an attempt to make the players the type of footballers that are in demand.
I am not going to get upset if I get pulled to pieces on this so have at it; I am just trying to line this all up in my head as this is my stab at reasoning it out.
I also feel that having a properly settled and fit defence may well have made a huge difference too but we just don't seem able to field the same team each week as we did earlier in the season. [Post edited 11 Nov 2019 20:28]
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You may well have a point although whether it is as calculated as that I'm not sure. I do agree that I can't see MW changing the style and given the current position of the Club it's unlikely we will be attempting to sign any players who he deems are better at playing this style in January but I suppose you never know. I think he will carry on, working on improving the current squad to get better at playing the way we do. One of our main problems at the moment is our tendency to give the ball away so easily, very often as soon as we get possession. One of the biggest culprits I have noticed is actually Wells, he almost always loses the ball when he gets it at the attacking end of the pitch and obviously we saw what happened on Saturday when he had it in our half. To be fair to him it is often because he is trying to play somebody in at speed which requires a great touch and awareness but he does lose it quite a bit. But the amount of times we give the ball away with poor passing must have MW pretty frustrated and that needs to improve measurably. This also manifests itself where we very often put a superb move together only to be let down by a poor final ball to create a gilt edged chance. I'm hopeful that all this will improve as we move forward though. |  | | |
| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 19:11 - Nov 11 with 1737 views | kensalriser |
| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 17:24 - Nov 11 by PinnerPaul |
I wouldn't say 2 points from the play offs is 'dropping like a stone' |
I wouldn't either, but it's 4 points. 5 actually, given our GD.
We had two chances to go second, now we're 7 points away having dropped from 4th to 10th. | |
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| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 20:10 - Nov 11 with 1672 views | essextaxiboy |
| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 16:46 - Nov 11 by 1MoreBrightonR |
guy behind me, who is pretty negative normally, spent the 10 mins after they got their second with his head in his hands staring at the floor. literally refused to watch the game...quite a few of us spotted it and it was funny, but also so crazy. Its frustrating but the way some fans treat anything but a win as a disaster baffles me. |
I do this a lot , I never slag off the team at the ground its counter productive . I got up and moved for the last 20 min on Sat as the negativity was wearing me down.
I know every inch of the square foot of concrete between my feet. |  | | |
| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 22:01 - Nov 11 with 1550 views | bosh67 |
I half thought he hadn't played Hugill because he is a diehard lifelong Boro fan but he's also a professional footballer. Albert Adomah came to us a few years back and scored both goals that beat us. I've never seen anyone completely refuse to celebrate and look so devastated but he came and did the job for his team, despite being as much of a QPR fan as we all are. I am a huge MW fan but not playing Hugill from the start was a bit baffling for once.
Defensively one of the issues is the ever changing central defence line up. How often has it been the same or actually had time to gel? Littered with injuries and an absolute lack of pace. That for me is the problem. We have no recovery pace and our marking is generally zonal. With Cameron, Leister and Hall all 6 foot 3+ and Barbet at 6 foot 2 we should go man to man. But the lack of pace at CB is an issue, as is the lack of a designated midfield enforcer. We are lacking a Derry. Manning is too creative to do that and perhaps Ball or Amos need time to become it but we don't have that hard nut play breaker. Cameron can do it but he looks particularly slow this season. He wasn't fast last season but he read the game well. This season he seems to be being bypassed at the moment.
But... for me the one big problem at home is the first ten minutes in the last three games. In the earlier part of the season, allowing for Luton as a bit of a freak case, we came storming out the blocks and scared the sh*t out of opponents. It reminded me of the great Doherty team that did that and before that Jago's team. Last three games we have been sluggish and given our defensive frailties we have allowed teams onto us and that has kind of set the tone. Too deep and too narrow. We were playing with no fear and we are currently a bit nervy.
That said, we aren't actually bad at all. But we do need to find a way with the current players to defend far better as a whole team, close down quicker and just start games on the front foot and be the alpha rather than the somewhat submissive we have been in recent weeks in the first quarter of games. |  |
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| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 07:33 - Nov 12 with 1388 views | Esox_Lucius |
| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 19:02 - Nov 11 by jonno |
You may well have a point although whether it is as calculated as that I'm not sure. I do agree that I can't see MW changing the style and given the current position of the Club it's unlikely we will be attempting to sign any players who he deems are better at playing this style in January but I suppose you never know. I think he will carry on, working on improving the current squad to get better at playing the way we do. One of our main problems at the moment is our tendency to give the ball away so easily, very often as soon as we get possession. One of the biggest culprits I have noticed is actually Wells, he almost always loses the ball when he gets it at the attacking end of the pitch and obviously we saw what happened on Saturday when he had it in our half. To be fair to him it is often because he is trying to play somebody in at speed which requires a great touch and awareness but he does lose it quite a bit. But the amount of times we give the ball away with poor passing must have MW pretty frustrated and that needs to improve measurably. This also manifests itself where we very often put a superb move together only to be let down by a poor final ball to create a gilt edged chance. I'm hopeful that all this will improve as we move forward though. |
After reading Clive's report of the Fans Forum it appears I wasn't a million miles off the mark with my theory that the players are being coached to be of the most value to EPL clubs and that is more important in the long run for the longevity and financial stability of the club. | |
| The grass is always greener. |
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| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 08:37 - Nov 12 with 1359 views | TheChef |
| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 16:46 - Nov 11 by 1MoreBrightonR |
guy behind me, who is pretty negative normally, spent the 10 mins after they got their second with his head in his hands staring at the floor. literally refused to watch the game...quite a few of us spotted it and it was funny, but also so crazy. Its frustrating but the way some fans treat anything but a win as a disaster baffles me. |
Let's face it, a lot of our fans have deep seated psychological problems.
Including me.
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| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 08:53 - Nov 12 with 1343 views | TacticalR |
| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 08:37 - Nov 12 by TheChef |
Let's face it, a lot of our fans have deep seated psychological problems.
Including me.
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But is that because supporting QPR drives everyone round the bend, or did everyone start supporting QPR because they were already round the bend? | |
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| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 09:31 - Nov 12 with 1316 views | TheChef |
| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 08:53 - Nov 12 by TacticalR |
But is that because supporting QPR drives everyone round the bend, or did everyone start supporting QPR because they were already round the bend? |
You have to be a special type of special to support QPR.
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| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 11:28 - Nov 12 with 1256 views | PinnerPaul |
| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 19:11 - Nov 11 by kensalriser |
I wouldn't either, but it's 4 points. 5 actually, given our GD.
We had two chances to go second, now we're 7 points away having dropped from 4th to 10th. |
Sorry BC winning made it 4 but to return your serve - we were never 2nd so can't be 7 points worse off if we're 7 off it now.
I also think we were only 4th because not everyone had played that week
We still might, but the long losing runs we had under SMc and IH is 'dropping like a stone' not where we are currently. | | | |
| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 14:43 - Nov 12 with 1146 views | robith |
I actually thought Amos was alright y'know and was a big loss when we took him off - he had 87% pass completion but when Scowen came on he had 55% pass completion which really put us under the cosh |  | | |
| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 19:26 - Nov 12 with 1033 views | kensalriser |
| Antti's Six Knee Jerks: QPR 2 Boro 2 on 11:28 - Nov 12 by PinnerPaul |
Sorry BC winning made it 4 but to return your serve - we were never 2nd so can't be 7 points worse off if we're 7 off it now.
I also think we were only 4th because not everyone had played that week
We still might, but the long losing runs we had under SMc and IH is 'dropping like a stone' not where we are currently. |
We'll have to agree to disagree then!
Two points from four games, three of them at home isn't good however you slice it. And I think we all know it'll be two from five come Friday night. | |
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