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Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum 03:48 - Nov 12 with 4575 viewsNorthernr


Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum 12th Nov 2019 03:41
The annual QPR fans forum took place in Shepherd’s Bush this evening with a lot of the usual platitudes and talking points but a couple of interesting - and at one point explosive - moments on contentious issues. 15

13
Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 22:19 - Nov 13 with 1242 viewsstainrods_elbow

Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 01:47 - Nov 13 by Benny_the_Ball

With good reason. After the forum I spoke with a few of the fans who are campaigning for this. They're keen on increasing the atmosphere in the loft by replacing present incumbents with noisy fans from various blocks around the ground. However when I pointed out that many fans won't want to move and pressed them on how the club should decide who goes and who stays, they didn't have an answer.


Football starts by imposing all seater stadiums to price out the working classes supposed by Thatcher and her ilk to have contributed to the Hillsborough manslaughter, sabotaging atmosphere and noise and excitement, while driving up prices three or four fold overnight, in one act of calculated surgical destruction. (In decades of the beloved corrugated Loft terrace, I'm not aware of anyone ever dying, or even being seriously injured in a crush.) Then Rangers install their crappily unlovable and murkily motivated 'Family Stand', and everyone at the club up to Lee Hoos defends the indefensible (to the point that LH, in a reversal worthy of Orwellian doublethink, now paints himself as the man who longs to bring the magic back). Meanwhile, clubs wring their hands as they cajole fans for falling quiet and speak of 'singing areas' and 'song sheets', having themselves let the genie out of the bottle.

To me, as a supporter of four decades, the whole narrative is a perverse, sorry slow-mo carcrash, and you couldn't make it up!
[Post edited 13 Nov 2019 23:17]

Poll: What will be our upcoming/final points tally? (8 games to go)

0
Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 23:10 - Nov 13 with 1211 viewsstainrods_elbow

I do agree there was much in the Forum that was positive, open and encouraging, and that all three men spoke with some unity, vitality and complementary professionalism. While I have some concerns about certain things, it's probably the best three prongs we could hope for in charge, especially Warburton, though I still wonder who monitors the performance of the Director of Football and the CEO. I had to smile over LH's honest presentation of the perils of honesty/the need to be dishonest over FFP and the transfer marketplace, though, which made even me like him a bit more. ;-)

People can get back on my case if they want as it's water off a duck's back, but for me the way LH speaks, and his chuckling response to the question about (stopping) firing managers, along with Les, still gets on my nipples for its irritating complacency. How much money have they cost the club with this past short-termism and incompetence is anyone's business, so a suitable degree of quiet humility would be fitting. (I'm also sure that our finance-obsessed LH would tell us that 'confidentiality' means our monthly bills to Ollie, JFH, Hair Island and whoever else must, conveniently for them, go unscrutinsed by us.) Id say both men have got bloody lucky in landing Warburton, who seems to me like the real deal, but it still wouldn't surprise me if they got rid of him if results went downhill, as football is such a gutless and insincere business. (Meanwhile, Lee, please don't lecture me chummily on the 'DNA of the club', having been here five minutes compared to the decades I've been a supporter! It just doesn't wash.)

Nevertheless, it was good to see Les looking in better spirits than he's seemed in the recent past, and liked his self-deprecating but pointed humour about the manager getting the credit, and the Director of Football getting it in the neck, for players who succeed/fail. I do think he's been learning on the job, and I still wish his role was more clearly defined than it seems to be, but he palpably cares about the club at least. But if Andy Sinton was DoF and Les were Club Ambassador, would it really change very much?

Having watched the whole thing, my (academic) post-forum questions/comments would be:

1. MW - to what extent do oyu really believe every player can be sold at any time and what does that do to your feeling for trying to build a team?
2. LF/LH - following on from the above, you talk about enticing people back to QPR, but how does broadcasting a policy of anyone and everyone is always for sale allow young fans to build relationships with players? (Indeed, do you recognise the value of this at all?) I'd say that, in 10 years time, there'll be no more 'QPR Legends' (Macca, Gallen, Sir Les etc.) because the kind of 'price of everything/value of nothing' commodification of the game you go in for means that no one stays anywhere for more than a year or two if fans are lucky.
3. Lee - on which topic, why do you place such emphasis on attracting back new visitors, when anyone who follows football knows that only a small percentage of any gate is 'floating' or 'casual' support? The bulk of long term fans like me don't care that much about your fixation with 'leg room' and refreshments in the scheme of things - just what's going on on the pitch, and what we have to pay to see it. I'd say this is a very 'American' view of 'sports' that is basically an attempt to cosmeticise the game in ways that make me feel more than a little sad inside, even if it's pervasive.
4. The idea that clubs will automatically fill a 35, 000 stadium in the Prem (or 20k to 23k in the Champ) is pie in the sky when it comes to QPR - it's just stupid expansionist idealism. Even in 1976, we were barely pulling in 22,000 for UEFA cup fixtures against the likes of FC Cologne, so also betrays a lack of respect or awareness of the club's history. Plese don't foist this nonsense on the fanbase to propagandise on behalf of a new stadium. Bournemouth (av. crowds of around 11,000) are currently 9th in the Premiership!
5. Mark - why do you keep defending ''playing out from the back' when you (mostly) don't need to? Most of the goals we've conceded this have been through poor defensive marking, goalkeeper howlers, and stupid giveaways (as in both the goals against Middlesbrough), as you've surely noted. Sure, we defend as a team, but the defenders are called defenders for a reason. Too often this season they just haven't done their job.
6. Lee - do your homework on the prices/attendances corrrelation, and stop bullshitting. The League Cup is a straw man argument, because all clubs cynically devalue it, and crowds are diabolical across the board. When, under Holloway, we pegged prices for our first year back in the Champ., we averaged amazing gates of 16,055 (which went down by nearly 3,000 the following season). Kids for a quid for meaningful Saturday games have also always sold well at QPR, if you do your homework.
7. All of you - what, in one sentence, would be 'success' for QPR fice years for now? What do you foresee/ want for the club, and what are the main obstacles to our getting there?

Perhaps Clive can take up some of this slack in his next interview with LH /the club? (Oh and by the way, if I critique too much for some, it's because I care too.)
[Post edited 13 Nov 2019 23:16]

Poll: What will be our upcoming/final points tally? (8 games to go)

1
Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 09:36 - Nov 14 with 1090 viewsLythamR

Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 01:47 - Nov 13 by Benny_the_Ball

With good reason. After the forum I spoke with a few of the fans who are campaigning for this. They're keen on increasing the atmosphere in the loft by replacing present incumbents with noisy fans from various blocks around the ground. However when I pointed out that many fans won't want to move and pressed them on how the club should decide who goes and who stays, they didn't have an answer.


Dont like the sound of this at all, are the people who want to move to central UL prepared to pay the Gold prices?

You cant just move people out from this prime area willy nilly to allow "singers" in. There would have to be a criteria which would have to be measured and monitored, I sing but do i sing enough to retain my seat, am i loud enough to stay? do i sing often enough to stay? do i only sing when we're winning? Would i have to sing all songs including any homophobic and racist and hate filled ones or can I just contribute to celebratory and humorous ones? will there be a committee to determine which songs qualify?

Not going to fly is it
3
Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 09:51 - Nov 14 with 1072 viewsterryb

Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 09:36 - Nov 14 by LythamR

Dont like the sound of this at all, are the people who want to move to central UL prepared to pay the Gold prices?

You cant just move people out from this prime area willy nilly to allow "singers" in. There would have to be a criteria which would have to be measured and monitored, I sing but do i sing enough to retain my seat, am i loud enough to stay? do i sing often enough to stay? do i only sing when we're winning? Would i have to sing all songs including any homophobic and racist and hate filled ones or can I just contribute to celebratory and humorous ones? will there be a committee to determine which songs qualify?

Not going to fly is it


I'm all for it if our seats in the back row of M are going to be reduced to Bronze! Or is that too far to the left?

I don't see any of us agreeing to vacate our seats though. Standing in the back row of the Loft is a must for my f****d up knee & for our two foot high supporter!
0
Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 10:20 - Nov 14 with 1051 viewsAntti_Heinola

Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 22:19 - Nov 13 by stainrods_elbow

Football starts by imposing all seater stadiums to price out the working classes supposed by Thatcher and her ilk to have contributed to the Hillsborough manslaughter, sabotaging atmosphere and noise and excitement, while driving up prices three or four fold overnight, in one act of calculated surgical destruction. (In decades of the beloved corrugated Loft terrace, I'm not aware of anyone ever dying, or even being seriously injured in a crush.) Then Rangers install their crappily unlovable and murkily motivated 'Family Stand', and everyone at the club up to Lee Hoos defends the indefensible (to the point that LH, in a reversal worthy of Orwellian doublethink, now paints himself as the man who longs to bring the magic back). Meanwhile, clubs wring their hands as they cajole fans for falling quiet and speak of 'singing areas' and 'song sheets', having themselves let the genie out of the bottle.

To me, as a supporter of four decades, the whole narrative is a perverse, sorry slow-mo carcrash, and you couldn't make it up!
[Post edited 13 Nov 2019 23:17]


It's a viewpoint, certainly.
The idea, though, that standing back then was perfectly safe, and hey, no one ever died in the Loft end, so there we go: safety, is risible. I stood on packed terraces for years and it was downright dangerous, particularly when goals went in. I remember once at Brentford grabbing my ageing, weighty father with all my might as he threatened to disappear under a tsunami of fans surging forward celebrating a goal, and had he fallen, which he would have had I not grabbed him, he would have been stampeded. It's a effin nonsense, Stainrod, sorry, and it's not as if something similar could not have happened at LR, as you will I'm sure remember from the West Ham cup tie. Fences were evil, for sure, police dangerously uncaring/incompetent for sure, but the idea that things as they stood were 'safe' is demonstrably horsesh!t.
Safe standing? All for it. Sensible, should be brought in everywhere. No problem. Thatcher? Horrible, evil, the ID scheme was horrendous etc. Prices have gone out of control, completely agree, although I don't believe the Taylor Report had this objective in mind.
I sat in the Loft for years before it was a family stand and the idea before that point it had been some kind of hotbed of noise is so laughable it's untrue - the 'singers' had long since decamped before the family stand came in.
You're right, you couldn't make it up, but you could pour a load of hyperbole over it like thick, cold gravy.

Bare bones.

1
Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 10:48 - Nov 14 with 1033 viewsAntti_Heinola

Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 23:10 - Nov 13 by stainrods_elbow

I do agree there was much in the Forum that was positive, open and encouraging, and that all three men spoke with some unity, vitality and complementary professionalism. While I have some concerns about certain things, it's probably the best three prongs we could hope for in charge, especially Warburton, though I still wonder who monitors the performance of the Director of Football and the CEO. I had to smile over LH's honest presentation of the perils of honesty/the need to be dishonest over FFP and the transfer marketplace, though, which made even me like him a bit more. ;-)

People can get back on my case if they want as it's water off a duck's back, but for me the way LH speaks, and his chuckling response to the question about (stopping) firing managers, along with Les, still gets on my nipples for its irritating complacency. How much money have they cost the club with this past short-termism and incompetence is anyone's business, so a suitable degree of quiet humility would be fitting. (I'm also sure that our finance-obsessed LH would tell us that 'confidentiality' means our monthly bills to Ollie, JFH, Hair Island and whoever else must, conveniently for them, go unscrutinsed by us.) Id say both men have got bloody lucky in landing Warburton, who seems to me like the real deal, but it still wouldn't surprise me if they got rid of him if results went downhill, as football is such a gutless and insincere business. (Meanwhile, Lee, please don't lecture me chummily on the 'DNA of the club', having been here five minutes compared to the decades I've been a supporter! It just doesn't wash.)

Nevertheless, it was good to see Les looking in better spirits than he's seemed in the recent past, and liked his self-deprecating but pointed humour about the manager getting the credit, and the Director of Football getting it in the neck, for players who succeed/fail. I do think he's been learning on the job, and I still wish his role was more clearly defined than it seems to be, but he palpably cares about the club at least. But if Andy Sinton was DoF and Les were Club Ambassador, would it really change very much?

Having watched the whole thing, my (academic) post-forum questions/comments would be:

1. MW - to what extent do oyu really believe every player can be sold at any time and what does that do to your feeling for trying to build a team?
2. LF/LH - following on from the above, you talk about enticing people back to QPR, but how does broadcasting a policy of anyone and everyone is always for sale allow young fans to build relationships with players? (Indeed, do you recognise the value of this at all?) I'd say that, in 10 years time, there'll be no more 'QPR Legends' (Macca, Gallen, Sir Les etc.) because the kind of 'price of everything/value of nothing' commodification of the game you go in for means that no one stays anywhere for more than a year or two if fans are lucky.
3. Lee - on which topic, why do you place such emphasis on attracting back new visitors, when anyone who follows football knows that only a small percentage of any gate is 'floating' or 'casual' support? The bulk of long term fans like me don't care that much about your fixation with 'leg room' and refreshments in the scheme of things - just what's going on on the pitch, and what we have to pay to see it. I'd say this is a very 'American' view of 'sports' that is basically an attempt to cosmeticise the game in ways that make me feel more than a little sad inside, even if it's pervasive.
4. The idea that clubs will automatically fill a 35, 000 stadium in the Prem (or 20k to 23k in the Champ) is pie in the sky when it comes to QPR - it's just stupid expansionist idealism. Even in 1976, we were barely pulling in 22,000 for UEFA cup fixtures against the likes of FC Cologne, so also betrays a lack of respect or awareness of the club's history. Plese don't foist this nonsense on the fanbase to propagandise on behalf of a new stadium. Bournemouth (av. crowds of around 11,000) are currently 9th in the Premiership!
5. Mark - why do you keep defending ''playing out from the back' when you (mostly) don't need to? Most of the goals we've conceded this have been through poor defensive marking, goalkeeper howlers, and stupid giveaways (as in both the goals against Middlesbrough), as you've surely noted. Sure, we defend as a team, but the defenders are called defenders for a reason. Too often this season they just haven't done their job.
6. Lee - do your homework on the prices/attendances corrrelation, and stop bullshitting. The League Cup is a straw man argument, because all clubs cynically devalue it, and crowds are diabolical across the board. When, under Holloway, we pegged prices for our first year back in the Champ., we averaged amazing gates of 16,055 (which went down by nearly 3,000 the following season). Kids for a quid for meaningful Saturday games have also always sold well at QPR, if you do your homework.
7. All of you - what, in one sentence, would be 'success' for QPR fice years for now? What do you foresee/ want for the club, and what are the main obstacles to our getting there?

Perhaps Clive can take up some of this slack in his next interview with LH /the club? (Oh and by the way, if I critique too much for some, it's because I care too.)
[Post edited 13 Nov 2019 23:16]


I'll answer some of these for you:

1. No he doesn't, as there are transfer windows. But he will absolutely accept players can be sold within those windows. He'd be an idiot otherwise, and he's not an idiot.

2. This is profound nonsense.At every football club barring very, very few (5 or 6 in the world) all players are available for the right price. Young fans may not understand this, and yet young fans continue to support clubs at all levels. This is called 'education'. Yes, we do live in a world now where young kids in England support Barcelona so that they can swan around school knowing no one can take the mick because they win every week, but it's not really so different to all the kids supporting Liverpool in the 80s for the same reason. It's bordering on insanity to suggest to a youngster that Eze might stay with the club forever and if you did say this, and then he leaves, where does that leave you? Infantile stuff here. Every club will always have legends, but if Alan MacDonald had been a bit quicker, smoked a bit less, and a bit better on the ball, he would have been sold after three years rather than staying for 17.

3. I think you don't grasp LH's point very well here. Absolutely we should encourage long term fans, fans like you and me who will follow the club no matter what's happening on the pitch. Fans who'll carry buckets to Brentford. Fans who'll go to Barnsley away games. But to ignore 'floaters' is just stupid. If you can get floaters in and they enjoy the experience they may well become more regular. I have a friend who loves football, doens't go regularly, and came to a game with me once. A brilliant game - 3-2 v Liverpool, Mackie and all that. Amazing. He won't come back because his knees were fked up by the seating. You may not care, I may not care (I do, a bit, it's fkn ridiculous), but - OTHER PEOPLE DO. Do you see? People are different. Just because you find those people distasteful, it does not mean we should not pursue them as potential fans. LH's point about retaining first time visitors was fascinating. It's an awful statistic. The club do a lot of outreach, of getting people into games, of working in the community and so on - but this is long term stuff. It doesn't happen overnight.

4. This isn't a question. But Bournemouth are at capacity every week and are building a new stadium. What we attracted in the 1970s is an irrelevance, like saying how many people went to the cinema in 1976 compared to now. Watford, for example, increased their average gate by 33% since promotion, and they are a similar sized club to us, so promotion makes a huge difference. As does a ground with better facilities (see Brighton, see Southampton - who used to get tiny gates at the old Dell) - said this loads of times on here but in the top two divisions, at least, we are probably the only club that has either not had major reconstruction, or a ground move or about to make a move in the last 50 years. We are miles behind. If you cannot see this, there's no point in arguing about it, because it is so obvious. And I love the KPFS. Love it. But sooner or later we will have to move and a bigger ground with better facilities means less pressure on selling players, means more revenue, means hopefully better players, better football, and more crowds.

5. I don't think MW does do this. He has pointed out we've made errors and points out we've missed chances. I think you're conflating fans views with his general interviews and coming up with something a bit different.

6. Suspect Lee has studied this far more than your vague memories of what works. What worked that season was a seven-game winning run that coincided with those deals and also we were already getting good crowds from the promotion season - because fans come to watch winning teams. When we won this league, fans came crawling out the woodwork, lifelong fans, desperate for a ticket, Auntie Nelly and all that. They ain't staying away now because of prices (well, not all of them!).

7. I think they answered this on the night, although not in as many words. It's foolish to say what would constitute success anyway, especially to football fans. Aim too high and it'll be a stick to beat you with. Aim too low and you'll be accused of lack of ambition. But in 5 years they'll want to be or have been in the Prem. Main obstacles, as they said, is financial regulations and getting the new training ground. I think this is pretty obvious stuff?

There you go, saved Clive some work.

Bare bones.

5
Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 12:00 - Nov 14 with 970 viewsTheChef

Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 10:48 - Nov 14 by Antti_Heinola

I'll answer some of these for you:

1. No he doesn't, as there are transfer windows. But he will absolutely accept players can be sold within those windows. He'd be an idiot otherwise, and he's not an idiot.

2. This is profound nonsense.At every football club barring very, very few (5 or 6 in the world) all players are available for the right price. Young fans may not understand this, and yet young fans continue to support clubs at all levels. This is called 'education'. Yes, we do live in a world now where young kids in England support Barcelona so that they can swan around school knowing no one can take the mick because they win every week, but it's not really so different to all the kids supporting Liverpool in the 80s for the same reason. It's bordering on insanity to suggest to a youngster that Eze might stay with the club forever and if you did say this, and then he leaves, where does that leave you? Infantile stuff here. Every club will always have legends, but if Alan MacDonald had been a bit quicker, smoked a bit less, and a bit better on the ball, he would have been sold after three years rather than staying for 17.

3. I think you don't grasp LH's point very well here. Absolutely we should encourage long term fans, fans like you and me who will follow the club no matter what's happening on the pitch. Fans who'll carry buckets to Brentford. Fans who'll go to Barnsley away games. But to ignore 'floaters' is just stupid. If you can get floaters in and they enjoy the experience they may well become more regular. I have a friend who loves football, doens't go regularly, and came to a game with me once. A brilliant game - 3-2 v Liverpool, Mackie and all that. Amazing. He won't come back because his knees were fked up by the seating. You may not care, I may not care (I do, a bit, it's fkn ridiculous), but - OTHER PEOPLE DO. Do you see? People are different. Just because you find those people distasteful, it does not mean we should not pursue them as potential fans. LH's point about retaining first time visitors was fascinating. It's an awful statistic. The club do a lot of outreach, of getting people into games, of working in the community and so on - but this is long term stuff. It doesn't happen overnight.

4. This isn't a question. But Bournemouth are at capacity every week and are building a new stadium. What we attracted in the 1970s is an irrelevance, like saying how many people went to the cinema in 1976 compared to now. Watford, for example, increased their average gate by 33% since promotion, and they are a similar sized club to us, so promotion makes a huge difference. As does a ground with better facilities (see Brighton, see Southampton - who used to get tiny gates at the old Dell) - said this loads of times on here but in the top two divisions, at least, we are probably the only club that has either not had major reconstruction, or a ground move or about to make a move in the last 50 years. We are miles behind. If you cannot see this, there's no point in arguing about it, because it is so obvious. And I love the KPFS. Love it. But sooner or later we will have to move and a bigger ground with better facilities means less pressure on selling players, means more revenue, means hopefully better players, better football, and more crowds.

5. I don't think MW does do this. He has pointed out we've made errors and points out we've missed chances. I think you're conflating fans views with his general interviews and coming up with something a bit different.

6. Suspect Lee has studied this far more than your vague memories of what works. What worked that season was a seven-game winning run that coincided with those deals and also we were already getting good crowds from the promotion season - because fans come to watch winning teams. When we won this league, fans came crawling out the woodwork, lifelong fans, desperate for a ticket, Auntie Nelly and all that. They ain't staying away now because of prices (well, not all of them!).

7. I think they answered this on the night, although not in as many words. It's foolish to say what would constitute success anyway, especially to football fans. Aim too high and it'll be a stick to beat you with. Aim too low and you'll be accused of lack of ambition. But in 5 years they'll want to be or have been in the Prem. Main obstacles, as they said, is financial regulations and getting the new training ground. I think this is pretty obvious stuff?

There you go, saved Clive some work.


Fair play to you for taking all that time to reply.

Poll: How old is everyone on here?

0
Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 13:18 - Nov 14 with 922 viewsdaveB

Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 01:47 - Nov 13 by Benny_the_Ball

With good reason. After the forum I spoke with a few of the fans who are campaigning for this. They're keen on increasing the atmosphere in the loft by replacing present incumbents with noisy fans from various blocks around the ground. However when I pointed out that many fans won't want to move and pressed them on how the club should decide who goes and who stays, they didn't have an answer.


No different to what Beard did moving people from the family stand which had people going mad, now fans are seriously suggesting they do this again. Bloody barmy. It's really not needed, whoever these fans are who want to sing all game and create this atmosphere why don't they do it now from where they are currently situated, them moving seats so they can sing is bizarre
2
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Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 15:43 - Nov 14 with 842 viewsBuckR

https://www.qpr.co.uk/news/club-news/lee-hoos-confirms-sky-sports-appearance-fee

£75k per game! Can't seem worth it really. Fair play to Hoos for confirming
0
Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 16:36 - Nov 14 with 823 viewsNorthernr

Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 15:43 - Nov 14 by BuckR

https://www.qpr.co.uk/news/club-news/lee-hoos-confirms-sky-sports-appearance-fee

£75k per game! Can't seem worth it really. Fair play to Hoos for confirming


Also shows how much damage shifting the kick offs to lunch time or Monday nights actually does. He said at the forum that even with the Sky payments, which we now know were £150,000, the Brentford and West Brom games this year made us £10,000 less than last. And West Brom was a sht midweeker last year.
Don't think all the pubs and businesses round the ground don't feel that difference as well.
1
Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 16:39 - Nov 14 with 822 viewsstainrods_elbow

Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 10:48 - Nov 14 by Antti_Heinola

I'll answer some of these for you:

1. No he doesn't, as there are transfer windows. But he will absolutely accept players can be sold within those windows. He'd be an idiot otherwise, and he's not an idiot.

2. This is profound nonsense.At every football club barring very, very few (5 or 6 in the world) all players are available for the right price. Young fans may not understand this, and yet young fans continue to support clubs at all levels. This is called 'education'. Yes, we do live in a world now where young kids in England support Barcelona so that they can swan around school knowing no one can take the mick because they win every week, but it's not really so different to all the kids supporting Liverpool in the 80s for the same reason. It's bordering on insanity to suggest to a youngster that Eze might stay with the club forever and if you did say this, and then he leaves, where does that leave you? Infantile stuff here. Every club will always have legends, but if Alan MacDonald had been a bit quicker, smoked a bit less, and a bit better on the ball, he would have been sold after three years rather than staying for 17.

3. I think you don't grasp LH's point very well here. Absolutely we should encourage long term fans, fans like you and me who will follow the club no matter what's happening on the pitch. Fans who'll carry buckets to Brentford. Fans who'll go to Barnsley away games. But to ignore 'floaters' is just stupid. If you can get floaters in and they enjoy the experience they may well become more regular. I have a friend who loves football, doens't go regularly, and came to a game with me once. A brilliant game - 3-2 v Liverpool, Mackie and all that. Amazing. He won't come back because his knees were fked up by the seating. You may not care, I may not care (I do, a bit, it's fkn ridiculous), but - OTHER PEOPLE DO. Do you see? People are different. Just because you find those people distasteful, it does not mean we should not pursue them as potential fans. LH's point about retaining first time visitors was fascinating. It's an awful statistic. The club do a lot of outreach, of getting people into games, of working in the community and so on - but this is long term stuff. It doesn't happen overnight.

4. This isn't a question. But Bournemouth are at capacity every week and are building a new stadium. What we attracted in the 1970s is an irrelevance, like saying how many people went to the cinema in 1976 compared to now. Watford, for example, increased their average gate by 33% since promotion, and they are a similar sized club to us, so promotion makes a huge difference. As does a ground with better facilities (see Brighton, see Southampton - who used to get tiny gates at the old Dell) - said this loads of times on here but in the top two divisions, at least, we are probably the only club that has either not had major reconstruction, or a ground move or about to make a move in the last 50 years. We are miles behind. If you cannot see this, there's no point in arguing about it, because it is so obvious. And I love the KPFS. Love it. But sooner or later we will have to move and a bigger ground with better facilities means less pressure on selling players, means more revenue, means hopefully better players, better football, and more crowds.

5. I don't think MW does do this. He has pointed out we've made errors and points out we've missed chances. I think you're conflating fans views with his general interviews and coming up with something a bit different.

6. Suspect Lee has studied this far more than your vague memories of what works. What worked that season was a seven-game winning run that coincided with those deals and also we were already getting good crowds from the promotion season - because fans come to watch winning teams. When we won this league, fans came crawling out the woodwork, lifelong fans, desperate for a ticket, Auntie Nelly and all that. They ain't staying away now because of prices (well, not all of them!).

7. I think they answered this on the night, although not in as many words. It's foolish to say what would constitute success anyway, especially to football fans. Aim too high and it'll be a stick to beat you with. Aim too low and you'll be accused of lack of ambition. But in 5 years they'll want to be or have been in the Prem. Main obstacles, as they said, is financial regulations and getting the new training ground. I think this is pretty obvious stuff?

There you go, saved Clive some work.


Thanks for the replies, though, to answer the other post and to be fair to myself, I think as much time went into my raising the original discussion points! It would be nice, though, if you kept the tone of smugness in responding out of the post, as this is a discussion board, and no one's views are definitive.

1. OK, transfer windows, obviously, if you want to be pedantic about it. Actually, players are sold all the time against coaches/managers' wishes, and sometimes the latter even resign because of it, so to say they're idiotic unless they completely concur with the wishes of chairmen and CEOs (who, as I say, are in danger of knowing the price of everything, or rather everyone, and the value of no one) is itself idiotic. And it's even potentially incoherent, when, on the other hand, the likes of Les are rightly emphasising the need for players like Eze to stick around to inspire upcoming academy players (but, as I've highlighted, seem to lack the imagination to consider how the young supporters who adore them are also affected) - how, then, does that play with him and LH telling the manager he's done well to enhance their value? Do people really think more legroom or retaining talented players is more important to soldidfying and building the fan base? If you think the former, you may or may not be an idiot, but I would't want to have a drink with you, personally.

2. What a load of horseshit (and an insult to his memory) to suggest that an international footballer like Macca only stayed at QPR because no one else would take him! Do you really think there were no offers? Another example is Kevin Gallen, who very obviously never wanted to leave QPR either. And did I say Eze would definitely be staying at QPR 'forever' anyway? I'm simply saying that, for any club to be worthy of its name, it doesn't sell all its best players whenever it can, and it takes into account its aspirations, its supporters, its players, and what it is trying to achieve as a footballing entity. So, QPR sell Smithies at a pittance, say, and then maybe puncture a promotion push that would earn them the value of his transfer many times over increased revenue, while pissing off supporters who care about the side they're seeing. I'm not saying there is no kind of balancing act to be struck here, but it's amazing how the times turn. When Les went to Newcastle for 6m, a fortune for QPR at the time, there was open mutiny. The beauty and difficulty of football is that it's a business at one level, but it's about soul and passion and loyalty above that - for fans at least. Some player and clubs and individuals understand that better than most, and work within it. And Les does too, when speaking of Nakhi Wells at Rangers, and how he needs to play where he's happy. So lots of variables here, and heart-truths, to consider.

3. I stand (or painfully sit) my ground on balancing core support and floating support - and you can prove anything wth stats. People never talked about the seating in the 70s, 80s and even 90s, as far as I'm aware, so there's no doubt this is being massaged by the new breed of CEOs like LH to push a policy. Try to apply a little criticality, and think about the context. I'm not saying it doesn't matter at all, but of course safe standing could potentially address this to a large extent (another whole discussion, of course).

4. Re our crowds/demogppahic, try and look, like I am, at the stats and facts. Our hard core support in this league is around 5,000 - 13,000, depending on the competition and where we are in the table. To say, like LH, we could instantly get to 23k or 24k in the Prem is stupid, misguided and manipulative bullshit. History also counts for a lot here. Where do you and Lee think all those thousands of Rs supporters are hiding? They might come out for an F A Cup final, or a playoff final, but they won't come to a new ground just because the CEO idealistically decides the club needs re-branding. I don't think you can compare us with Brighton or Southampton either, or any club with any club, as every club is its own story.

5. I haven't heard a single interview from MW where he's come out and properly called out the poor marking/defensive stupidity/idiotic penalties that has led to a substantive numbers of our goals against this season, and I've watched all of them, so I question him on this. He almost invariably talks about 'defending as a team' or pointing out the rather self-evident truth that they're all 'human'. Perhaps, as has been sugggested, he is a different beast in the dressing room, but I find it odd that, for a maanger who seems so honest and clear-sighted in other respects, he seems to have a serious blind spot here.

6. Well done on assuming that everything that comes out of Lee Hoos is based on studied analysis, rather than tied into a clear agenda. I rest my case.

7. Try to chill, rather than getting all hot on the collar in your rush to take me to the cleaners in everything I say. Football is about fantasy too, and if you think I'm 'stupid; for merely being interested in what our represesentatives think is success for PR, and how that might match our views as fans, I'm sorry for you.
[Post edited 14 Nov 2019 16:44]

Poll: What will be our upcoming/final points tally? (8 games to go)

-1
Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 16:47 - Nov 14 with 801 viewsJeff

Whilst i have little desire to get involved in any ridiculous point scoring, This:

3. I stand (or painfully sit) my ground on balancing core support and floating support - and you can prove anything with stats...

4. Re our crowds/demogrpahic, try and look, like I am, at the stats...

Did make me Laugh...

Can we not knock it?

0
Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 17:47 - Nov 14 with 766 viewsAntti_Heinola

Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 16:39 - Nov 14 by stainrods_elbow

Thanks for the replies, though, to answer the other post and to be fair to myself, I think as much time went into my raising the original discussion points! It would be nice, though, if you kept the tone of smugness in responding out of the post, as this is a discussion board, and no one's views are definitive.

1. OK, transfer windows, obviously, if you want to be pedantic about it. Actually, players are sold all the time against coaches/managers' wishes, and sometimes the latter even resign because of it, so to say they're idiotic unless they completely concur with the wishes of chairmen and CEOs (who, as I say, are in danger of knowing the price of everything, or rather everyone, and the value of no one) is itself idiotic. And it's even potentially incoherent, when, on the other hand, the likes of Les are rightly emphasising the need for players like Eze to stick around to inspire upcoming academy players (but, as I've highlighted, seem to lack the imagination to consider how the young supporters who adore them are also affected) - how, then, does that play with him and LH telling the manager he's done well to enhance their value? Do people really think more legroom or retaining talented players is more important to soldidfying and building the fan base? If you think the former, you may or may not be an idiot, but I would't want to have a drink with you, personally.

2. What a load of horseshit (and an insult to his memory) to suggest that an international footballer like Macca only stayed at QPR because no one else would take him! Do you really think there were no offers? Another example is Kevin Gallen, who very obviously never wanted to leave QPR either. And did I say Eze would definitely be staying at QPR 'forever' anyway? I'm simply saying that, for any club to be worthy of its name, it doesn't sell all its best players whenever it can, and it takes into account its aspirations, its supporters, its players, and what it is trying to achieve as a footballing entity. So, QPR sell Smithies at a pittance, say, and then maybe puncture a promotion push that would earn them the value of his transfer many times over increased revenue, while pissing off supporters who care about the side they're seeing. I'm not saying there is no kind of balancing act to be struck here, but it's amazing how the times turn. When Les went to Newcastle for 6m, a fortune for QPR at the time, there was open mutiny. The beauty and difficulty of football is that it's a business at one level, but it's about soul and passion and loyalty above that - for fans at least. Some player and clubs and individuals understand that better than most, and work within it. And Les does too, when speaking of Nakhi Wells at Rangers, and how he needs to play where he's happy. So lots of variables here, and heart-truths, to consider.

3. I stand (or painfully sit) my ground on balancing core support and floating support - and you can prove anything wth stats. People never talked about the seating in the 70s, 80s and even 90s, as far as I'm aware, so there's no doubt this is being massaged by the new breed of CEOs like LH to push a policy. Try to apply a little criticality, and think about the context. I'm not saying it doesn't matter at all, but of course safe standing could potentially address this to a large extent (another whole discussion, of course).

4. Re our crowds/demogppahic, try and look, like I am, at the stats and facts. Our hard core support in this league is around 5,000 - 13,000, depending on the competition and where we are in the table. To say, like LH, we could instantly get to 23k or 24k in the Prem is stupid, misguided and manipulative bullshit. History also counts for a lot here. Where do you and Lee think all those thousands of Rs supporters are hiding? They might come out for an F A Cup final, or a playoff final, but they won't come to a new ground just because the CEO idealistically decides the club needs re-branding. I don't think you can compare us with Brighton or Southampton either, or any club with any club, as every club is its own story.

5. I haven't heard a single interview from MW where he's come out and properly called out the poor marking/defensive stupidity/idiotic penalties that has led to a substantive numbers of our goals against this season, and I've watched all of them, so I question him on this. He almost invariably talks about 'defending as a team' or pointing out the rather self-evident truth that they're all 'human'. Perhaps, as has been sugggested, he is a different beast in the dressing room, but I find it odd that, for a maanger who seems so honest and clear-sighted in other respects, he seems to have a serious blind spot here.

6. Well done on assuming that everything that comes out of Lee Hoos is based on studied analysis, rather than tied into a clear agenda. I rest my case.

7. Try to chill, rather than getting all hot on the collar in your rush to take me to the cleaners in everything I say. Football is about fantasy too, and if you think I'm 'stupid; for merely being interested in what our represesentatives think is success for PR, and how that might match our views as fans, I'm sorry for you.
[Post edited 14 Nov 2019 16:44]


All fair points mate. Disagree with many of them - and sometimes you're saying similar things to me, but in a different way, or from a different angle. But all fair.

the idea that Gallen would've stayed had Man U ever made the £5m offer that was mooted for so long because he wanted to stay at QPR is amusing. And with Macca, it was absolutely not meant as an insult and I never said he only stayed because no one else wanted him. I loved him, a hero of mine, and a real club man. I wrote a weepy letter to him when he left for Swindon. But the point was, had we been relegated in his prime, he was off. Had Fergie decided he was the man for him when he was signing Bruce or Pallister, he was off. Of course he was. To think otherwise is naive. Every player at our club always has and always will have their price, regardless of their loyalty.

We absolutely would get 24k+ in the prem in a new ground. Sorry, we would.

Bare bones.

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Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 21:56 - Nov 14 with 682 viewsstainrods_elbow

Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 17:47 - Nov 14 by Antti_Heinola

All fair points mate. Disagree with many of them - and sometimes you're saying similar things to me, but in a different way, or from a different angle. But all fair.

the idea that Gallen would've stayed had Man U ever made the £5m offer that was mooted for so long because he wanted to stay at QPR is amusing. And with Macca, it was absolutely not meant as an insult and I never said he only stayed because no one else wanted him. I loved him, a hero of mine, and a real club man. I wrote a weepy letter to him when he left for Swindon. But the point was, had we been relegated in his prime, he was off. Had Fergie decided he was the man for him when he was signing Bruce or Pallister, he was off. Of course he was. To think otherwise is naive. Every player at our club always has and always will have their price, regardless of their loyalty.

We absolutely would get 24k+ in the prem in a new ground. Sorry, we would.


Thanks AM. I'm sure I'd enjoy chewing the cud with you over a pint one of these days. (I don't mean literally, i.e. like a cow.)

Re the new stadium, LInford Christie seems out of our hands, as LH more or less said at the Forum - it's dahhn to da caahncil, innit? Of greater concern to me is the training ground, as we seem to have regressed from LH's positive PR on it last time he met Clive.

What you say about Gallen is pure speculation, though, while your words about Macca were unfortunately and oddly chosen if they weren't saying he wasn't good enough to go elsewhere.

In the meantime, here's a nice bit of counter-thesis to your own dogmatism on this emotive topic:

https://www.90min.com/posts/2360707-5-loyal-footballers-who-rejected-massive-mov

Poll: What will be our upcoming/final points tally? (8 games to go)

0
Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 22:42 - Nov 14 with 661 viewsPikey

Gallen was on his way but had that cruciate injury at Portsmouth 2nd game of the season after relegation never played again that season and never the same player after that. Hence no big move.
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Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 10:17 - Nov 15 with 585 viewsAntti_Heinola

Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 21:56 - Nov 14 by stainrods_elbow

Thanks AM. I'm sure I'd enjoy chewing the cud with you over a pint one of these days. (I don't mean literally, i.e. like a cow.)

Re the new stadium, LInford Christie seems out of our hands, as LH more or less said at the Forum - it's dahhn to da caahncil, innit? Of greater concern to me is the training ground, as we seem to have regressed from LH's positive PR on it last time he met Clive.

What you say about Gallen is pure speculation, though, while your words about Macca were unfortunately and oddly chosen if they weren't saying he wasn't good enough to go elsewhere.

In the meantime, here's a nice bit of counter-thesis to your own dogmatism on this emotive topic:

https://www.90min.com/posts/2360707-5-loyal-footballers-who-rejected-massive-mov


I think LH was positive, just guarded - and given the history of the opposition to this, that's only sensible.

As for the article... Yersss...
Shearer rejecting United to go to... the biggest spending club in the country that would go on to win the league. And then going to Newcastle, who should have won the league. Not exactly staying at QPR instead of going to Man United is it? Newcastle are a bigger club than Blackburn and both Shearer's moves were motivated by a fee that both clubs felt they had to accept.

Gerrard to Chelsea? Oh come on, he rejected that because they won the freaking Champions League and showed they could match his ambition!

Maldini to Chelsea. PAOLO MALDINI OF MILAN rejects move to smaller club? Yep, ok.

Totti to Real - OK, getting closer, but still. He's the king of Roma, he's winning stuff.

Le Tiss to Spurs/Chelsea. Yes. I'll give you this. The exception that proves the rule.

With Macca, don't get me wrong - he was not good enough to be an absolute top level centre back for a team challenging to win the First Div/Prem or trophies in Europe. That is absolutely not a slight on him as a person or player. But he was not quite in that top echelon, excellent as he was. He wasn't far off. But he wasn't Hansen, or Pallister, or Gough or Butcher or Des Walker at their peaks. He was a great centre back, a legend to us and to his country, but it's ok to express the opinion that he wasn't an elite centre back. The very fact he played for QPR for 17 years proves that, I'm afraid, as horrible as that sounds. I'm not saying he wasn't fiercely loyal. But what I am saying is that had he been at a slightly higher level it was inevitable that he would have been sold to a bigger club, just as Parker, Sinton, Ferdinand, Peacock, Seaman and the rest all were, because in the end an offer would have come in that we could not turn down and he would have been a fool to turn down. I'm sure offers were made, but either not from big enough clubs to make the move attractive for him, or not of enough money. Could be wrong, but them's me views, and it is absolutely a knock on Macca - I bow to no one, except maybe Finney, in my love for him.

Bare bones.

1
Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 01:24 - Nov 17 with 492 viewsBenny_the_Ball

Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 22:42 - Nov 14 by Pikey

Gallen was on his way but had that cruciate injury at Portsmouth 2nd game of the season after relegation never played again that season and never the same player after that. Hence no big move.


Sorry I'm not buying that. Good player, terrific servant for QPR, such a lovely chap, etc. but no way on God's green earth were Manchester United signing him.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2019 1:30]
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Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 11:24 - Nov 17 with 412 viewsLythamR

Hoos brands UEFA, FIFA “complicit, liars” in racism row — Fans Forum on 01:24 - Nov 17 by Benny_the_Ball

Sorry I'm not buying that. Good player, terrific servant for QPR, such a lovely chap, etc. but no way on God's green earth were Manchester United signing him.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2019 1:30]


Man Utd supporters were extremely hopeful of signing him. My brother in law is Utd as were a couple of people in my workplace at the time. they were nearly as upset as I was when the extent of the injury was announced
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