| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday 19:10 - Jul 31 with 15227 views | QPR_John |
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| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 04:58 - Aug 5 with 1951 views | Match82 |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 16:31 - Aug 3 by Clive_Anderson |
The problem is that a 12 point penalty at the end of a season is either instant relegation (Wigan), miss out on promotion/play offs or no penalty at all (Birmingham).
The punishment at the start of the season is the same for everyone, a difficult season ahead started on -12 points. |
I agree, if it was enforceable across divisions - i.e. also counted in the Premier League. It's a death sentence for a newly promoted club to have a 12 point reduction and they wouldn't be able to attract as many good players (anyone signing a multi year contract knows that they'd have to drop a division).
In fact that does start to be quite a deterrent to trying to buy your way to promotion, especially if you added in a clause that said anyone getting promoted while breaking rules was not allowed to benefit from subsequent parachute payments... |  | | |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 05:28 - Aug 5 with 1921 views | jtuck |
Perimeter board at Wembley for play-off final: 'Screwfix proud sponsor of the EFL'. Screw. Fix. Says it all really. | |
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| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 07:39 - Aug 5 with 1816 views | QPR_John |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 03:26 - Aug 5 by Benny_the_Ball |
I can see the logic in both arguments. On the one hand, applying the points deduction in the same season may not have the desired impact (as was the case with Birmingham in 2019). On the other hand, applying the points deduction the following season potentially relegates another club that played by the rules (as is the case with Charlton this season).
I'm marginally in favour of applying penalties in the same season as I think it would act as a better deterrent and restrict the potential for appeals being drawn out. However whichever you cut it, it should be the same across the board. The manner in which sanctions were applied differently to Wigan and Sheffield Wednesday leaves a very sour taste in the mouth. |
"The manner in which sanctions were applied differently to Wigan and Sheffield Wednesday leaves a very sour taste in the mouth."
They were found guilty of different offences. | | | |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 08:17 - Aug 5 with 1769 views | stevec |
The solution to all of this is get rid of FFP and bring in wage caps throughout EFL.
At £18-19 million it’s all within range of most Championship clubs either through income or Director funding, plus it creates a near level playing field. Personally can’t see why any Championship player should be earning more than £10k a week, but a total of £18 mill pays some respect to those larger clubs to still pay above that level.
FFP is always going to create this fiasco we’ve seen in last couple of seasons, don’t ever want to see a repeat of it. |  | | |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 11:33 - Aug 5 with 1622 views | PinnerPaul |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 07:39 - Aug 5 by QPR_John |
"The manner in which sanctions were applied differently to Wigan and Sheffield Wednesday leaves a very sour taste in the mouth."
They were found guilty of different offences. |
Yeeeesssssss but punishment is the same.
If you get jailed - you go straight to jail - irrespective of the crime - you don't get a few months delay depending on the offence.
I'm like some on here - can see the argument from both sides. | | | |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 14:39 - Aug 5 with 1509 views | francisbowles |
Sheffield Wednesday will have their sanction take effect two years (seasons) too late.
The only way to do this fairly, if it is at all possible....is to make a club submit it's FFP accounts within days of the season finishing.
Then for the League to have a series of auditors to ensure they are accurate over a two week period.
Then to announce any sanctions with immediate effect. and without the right to appeal.
The league would have to get it's rule book in black and white. e.g. ban the sale of stadiums, training grounds etc from being allowed to be offset against FFP. Then there can be no debate about true value as there is/has been with Sheffield Wednesday and probably will be with others, Derby etc.
Make it purely first team player and squad costs v income. [Post edited 5 Aug 2020 14:41]
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| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 14:43 - Aug 5 with 1484 views | PinnerPaul |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 14:39 - Aug 5 by francisbowles |
Sheffield Wednesday will have their sanction take effect two years (seasons) too late.
The only way to do this fairly, if it is at all possible....is to make a club submit it's FFP accounts within days of the season finishing.
Then for the League to have a series of auditors to ensure they are accurate over a two week period.
Then to announce any sanctions with immediate effect. and without the right to appeal.
The league would have to get it's rule book in black and white. e.g. ban the sale of stadiums, training grounds etc from being allowed to be offset against FFP. Then there can be no debate about true value as there is/has been with Sheffield Wednesday and probably will be with others, Derby etc.
Make it purely first team player and squad costs v income. [Post edited 5 Aug 2020 14:41]
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You can't really go against law of the land - limited companies don't have to submit accounts 'within days' of their year ends so difficult legally to force FCs to I would have thought. | | | |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 15:31 - Aug 5 with 1398 views | francisbowles |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 14:43 - Aug 5 by PinnerPaul |
You can't really go against law of the land - limited companies don't have to submit accounts 'within days' of their year ends so difficult legally to force FCs to I would have thought. |
Pinner, I get that but this is not their limited company accounts though, it is purely a footballing matter. A separate set of accounts for the Football League that shows their adherence to a league rule not a legal requirement.
They would still file their financial year accounts in the normal manner. | | | |
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| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 15:51 - Aug 5 with 1377 views | PinnerPaul |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 15:31 - Aug 5 by francisbowles |
Pinner, I get that but this is not their limited company accounts though, it is purely a footballing matter. A separate set of accounts for the Football League that shows their adherence to a league rule not a legal requirement.
They would still file their financial year accounts in the normal manner. |
Yes see that, but can't see that being voted through | | | |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 16:08 - Aug 5 with 1339 views | QPR_John |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 11:33 - Aug 5 by PinnerPaul |
Yeeeesssssss but punishment is the same.
If you get jailed - you go straight to jail - irrespective of the crime - you don't get a few months delay depending on the offence.
I'm like some on here - can see the argument from both sides. |
I think, and I may be completely wrong, while the punishments are the same, the rules state in the case of administration the points deduction must be immediate whereas there is no such clause for falling foul of FFP. There is no question when a club goes into administration. [Post edited 5 Aug 2020 16:10]
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| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 16:13 - Aug 5 with 1328 views | Clive_Anderson |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 08:17 - Aug 5 by stevec |
The solution to all of this is get rid of FFP and bring in wage caps throughout EFL.
At £18-19 million it’s all within range of most Championship clubs either through income or Director funding, plus it creates a near level playing field. Personally can’t see why any Championship player should be earning more than £10k a week, but a total of £18 mill pays some respect to those larger clubs to still pay above that level.
FFP is always going to create this fiasco we’ve seen in last couple of seasons, don’t ever want to see a repeat of it. |
What happens to a team that get relegated from the Premier League with players on high wages with 3 years left on their contract?
Maybe they should have a rule that clubs to have relegation clauses put into players' contracts.
The problem is with the Premier League and Football League being run by different organisations, so there is no consistent rules in play that could fix these issues. | | | |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 23:32 - Aug 5 with 1152 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 07:39 - Aug 5 by QPR_John |
"The manner in which sanctions were applied differently to Wigan and Sheffield Wednesday leaves a very sour taste in the mouth."
They were found guilty of different offences. |
I was referring to the sanctions, not the offences (i.e. points deduction). Regardless of the offence and how it is judged, if a guilty verdict is reached and a punishment awarded, it should be applied in the same season, unless applying it this season has no effect (as was the case with Birmingham in 2019).
The EFL has defended its decision by citing differences in procedure. The decision to deduct Sheffield Wednesday points next season for an historical breach of P&S rules was reached by an independent panel, whereas Wigan's point deduction was triggered by league rules relating to insolvency events.
It took eight months and 17 days for Sheffield Wednesday to learn of their punishment, having initially been charged with misconduct in November 2019. The EFL and 'independent' panel clearly delayed the verdict until the completion of the extended regular season so that the punishment in turn would be deferred. [Post edited 5 Aug 2020 23:54]
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| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 00:02 - Aug 6 with 1117 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 16:13 - Aug 5 by Clive_Anderson |
What happens to a team that get relegated from the Premier League with players on high wages with 3 years left on their contract?
Maybe they should have a rule that clubs to have relegation clauses put into players' contracts.
The problem is with the Premier League and Football League being run by different organisations, so there is no consistent rules in play that could fix these issues. |
To a certain extent I blame clubs for not negotiating contracts accordingly. QPR, for example, included clauses in player contracts guaranteeing wage rises in the event of promotion but failed to include the opposite in the event of relegation. As a result they were lumbered with a huge wage bill in the championship.
Relegation clauses would protect clubs from financial meltdown should they be relegated from the Premier League and further incentivise players to try their utmost to stay up. | | | |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 10:16 - Aug 6 with 984 views | francisbowles |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 16:13 - Aug 5 by Clive_Anderson |
What happens to a team that get relegated from the Premier League with players on high wages with 3 years left on their contract?
Maybe they should have a rule that clubs to have relegation clauses put into players' contracts.
The problem is with the Premier League and Football League being run by different organisations, so there is no consistent rules in play that could fix these issues. |
Agree with that but they also have the parachute payments to help with the loss of income. | | | |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 10:32 - Aug 6 with 960 views | QPR_John |
| 12 point penalty for Sheffield Wednesday on 23:32 - Aug 5 by Benny_the_Ball |
I was referring to the sanctions, not the offences (i.e. points deduction). Regardless of the offence and how it is judged, if a guilty verdict is reached and a punishment awarded, it should be applied in the same season, unless applying it this season has no effect (as was the case with Birmingham in 2019).
The EFL has defended its decision by citing differences in procedure. The decision to deduct Sheffield Wednesday points next season for an historical breach of P&S rules was reached by an independent panel, whereas Wigan's point deduction was triggered by league rules relating to insolvency events.
It took eight months and 17 days for Sheffield Wednesday to learn of their punishment, having initially been charged with misconduct in November 2019. The EFL and 'independent' panel clearly delayed the verdict until the completion of the extended regular season so that the punishment in turn would be deferred. [Post edited 5 Aug 2020 23:54]
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I think we are in agreement. The point I was trying to clarify was that the timing of Wigans sanctions was mandatory i.e. the same season as the event. whereas FFP gives the league wriggle room. Bottom line administration = sanction immediately, FFP = wait and see. Not defending it just stating the facts as I understand them.
I believe your last paragraph is not too far from the truth. | | | |
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