| Season Ticket Update on 23:14 - Sep 27 with 2302 views | Northernr |
| Season Ticket Update on 23:05 - Sep 27 by daveB |
you should see the trouble we are having trying to sell ads in shows attracting millions of viewers, is a nightmare at the moment. Add in that you have no movies being released in cinemas so they've all gone, no new cars being made and sold, the theatres all shut and holidays down the toilet, it's not a great market at the moment [Post edited 27 Sep 2020 23:07]
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Yeh hearing it all the time from commissioning editors in the day job. More people watching their shows than have since the days of Den and Angie, but ad space going for the cost of a pint. Diffcult circle to square. |  | |  |
| Season Ticket Update on 07:32 - Sep 28 with 2210 views | Arty |
| Season Ticket Update on 22:52 - Sep 25 by daveB |
TV money for Championship clubs is not that great and doesn't make a huge difference. I don't think we should be getting these streams for free at all. |
Last season when abroad in Spain I could purchase a match stream for £5 per game, think a season ticket stream was available for £115.
It was also possible to purchase away streams @£5
Think this sets a precedent for anyway forward |  | | |
| Season Ticket Update on 09:28 - Sep 28 with 2144 views | robith |
| Season Ticket Update on 14:39 - Sep 27 by PinnerPaul |
Sorry the Sky analysis is wrong. Their audiences, compared to ITV, are tiny, therefore they can not charge anything like what ITV get from advertisers.
They also have the linked packages - ie people get their TV and Broadband from them. Its the same reason BT invested in PayTV sport - its NOT for the advertising revenue. |
As a media planner and former TV buyer- this is incorrect. ITV's audiences are large, but they are mass market audiences and broadly indicative of who watches TV anyway. Sky Sports has an audience - men, especially younger men, and more affluent men who don't watch much TV. So a spot on ITV1 will cost you between £x cost per thousand viewers, but Sky Sports will cost you £x x2.6. Bookmakers are forced to go in live sport (though they now self exclude from in match) and they will be forced to pay £400ish CPT for Premier League football. ITV's spots cost more in capital cost terms, but Sky are more expensive relative to the audience
The average ITV's 7 day audience is 5x that of Sky's, yet ITV's broadcast revenue is £500m, and Sky's is £347m. That's before we get into sky's other products such as their sports app and AdSmart.
Now admittedly that alone doesn't cover the cost of the TV deals, but your underlying point was wrong
Edit: realised I probably shouldn't have put actual rates in there [Post edited 28 Sep 2020 9:36]
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| Season Ticket Update on 09:44 - Sep 28 with 2107 views | PinnerPaul |
| Season Ticket Update on 23:14 - Sep 27 by Northernr |
Yeh hearing it all the time from commissioning editors in the day job. More people watching their shows than have since the days of Den and Angie, but ad space going for the cost of a pint. Diffcult circle to square. |
Proves my point to Saxbend even more - Sky's subscriptions including Broadband a lot more valuable and stable income stream than advertising - but as I said take away live football and a big chunk of that and 100s of jobs go. | | | |
| Season Ticket Update on 09:45 - Sep 28 with 2104 views | Stanisgod |
| Season Ticket Update on 23:40 - Sep 25 by saxbend |
If that's the case then all the more reason for the league not to go ahead until it's safe. If TV money matters that little then it would have been more economically sensible to suspend football altogether and avoid the massive costs of running the club for a whole empty season, and certainly no big deal for the broadcasters to keep paying.
Look at what the rest of hospitality and entertainment have had to go through, and theatres in particular are still going through.
If season ticket holders suddenly have to pay for streams during this uncertainty, many will choose not to, and even those who do choose to pay a tenner a game will still need their refunds issued immediately, and then the club will lose out even more. Fans will watch highlights for free instead shortly after the game.
If nothing else altering the terms of a season ticket once the season is already underway probably breaks a few trading laws. Also revoking an online voucher code once it has been issued and redeemed.
I know fans can have unreasonable expectations when it comes to on the pitch matters, as well as appointments of managers and signings of players, but one expectation that can never be called unreasonable is that if you buy a ticket for a game, and comply with the terms and regulations, then you are entitled to attend the game, and if you are not allowed to attend the game then that is a breach of contract by the ticket seller. A delay of more than 90 days for a refund in such a case is also unacceptable. The offer of a complementary, but inferior product as compensation for the extended delay of the refund can be acceptable, but subsequent withdrawal thereof definitely is not.
The league made a mistake rushing back into games. The clubs made a mistake not pointing it out. And a further mistake was made by both parties in announcing naively (or misleadingly) that fans would be back in October. No-one should be surprised if it's not appropriate for fans to attend games long after October and fans are definitely not to blame for this. Least of all the fans who've been pointing out from the beginning that the sole purpose of professional sport is to entertain spectators.
Playing for streams over nine games during months of severely reduced income while waiting indefinitely for the promised refund of last season was bad enough. To do the same across a whole nine-month season is on another level of unacceptability altogether. [Post edited 25 Sep 2020 23:41]
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So the local pubs and food places, tobacconists etc don't notice any difference with no fans every other week!?
Really. |  |
| It's being so happy that keeps me going. |
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| Season Ticket Update on 09:47 - Sep 28 with 2099 views | PinnerPaul |
| Season Ticket Update on 09:28 - Sep 28 by robith |
As a media planner and former TV buyer- this is incorrect. ITV's audiences are large, but they are mass market audiences and broadly indicative of who watches TV anyway. Sky Sports has an audience - men, especially younger men, and more affluent men who don't watch much TV. So a spot on ITV1 will cost you between £x cost per thousand viewers, but Sky Sports will cost you £x x2.6. Bookmakers are forced to go in live sport (though they now self exclude from in match) and they will be forced to pay £400ish CPT for Premier League football. ITV's spots cost more in capital cost terms, but Sky are more expensive relative to the audience
The average ITV's 7 day audience is 5x that of Sky's, yet ITV's broadcast revenue is £500m, and Sky's is £347m. That's before we get into sky's other products such as their sports app and AdSmart.
Now admittedly that alone doesn't cover the cost of the TV deals, but your underlying point was wrong
Edit: realised I probably shouldn't have put actual rates in there [Post edited 28 Sep 2020 9:36]
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Do you not agree that their subscription income - TV and Broadband is a lot more than the ad revenue?
And still my point is that both decline massively without live football is correct- no?
And, sorry to labour the point ITV's revenue, far less channels btw!, IS still more than Sky's as are the audiences. | | | |
| Season Ticket Update on 10:04 - Sep 28 with 2082 views | robith |
| Season Ticket Update on 09:47 - Sep 28 by PinnerPaul |
Do you not agree that their subscription income - TV and Broadband is a lot more than the ad revenue?
And still my point is that both decline massively without live football is correct- no?
And, sorry to labour the point ITV's revenue, far less channels btw!, IS still more than Sky's as are the audiences. |
Yes I do, I was purely the point around ad cost I was disputing.
Sky get 70% of ITV's broadcast revenue with only 45% of the available potential audiences. But you said that they can't charge what ITV charge, when they in fact charge much more! I'll stop being pedantic now | | | |
| Season Ticket Update on 10:15 - Sep 28 with 2064 views | BklynRanger |
| Season Ticket Update on 10:04 - Sep 28 by robith |
Yes I do, I was purely the point around ad cost I was disputing.
Sky get 70% of ITV's broadcast revenue with only 45% of the available potential audiences. But you said that they can't charge what ITV charge, when they in fact charge much more! I'll stop being pedantic now |
As a total outsider on this it looks something like 80 or 90% is based on subscriptions, 10 or 20% on revenue. Based on a bit of googlng anyway. |  | | |
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| Season Ticket Update on 10:34 - Sep 28 with 2022 views | NW5Hoop |
On the wider point about financial losses, I've done a lot of reporting on how Covid has affected live music, and many of the ancillary effects there hold true about football, too.
It's not just clubs affected by loss of fans. Think about it in broader terms:
- tens of thousands of fans not travelling every Saturday means massive revenue falls for rail companies, coach companies, travel companies
- loss of revenue for nearby pubs, cafes, newsagents and so on
- loss of revenue for food suppliers to grounds, and caterers who supply them
- loss of revenue for the company's that manufacture club shop tat
and so on and so on.
Think of it this way. Say 18,000 turn up to Loftus Road and the average spend on drinks, snacks, food, tat etc is £10 outside the ground. That's £180,000 lost to the local economy.
Say everyone travels to the ground by Tube, paying £2.40 each. That's £43,200 lost to TFL.
Say of those, 500 had travelled from further afield by train before getting on the tube. And say their average spend on tickets was £20. That's another £10,000 lost.
Thats's the way to think about it. So even the loss of one sellout at Loftus Road likely costs the economy somewhere around £300,000. | | | |
| Season Ticket Update on 18:29 - Sep 28 with 1865 views | PinnerPaul |
| Season Ticket Update on 10:04 - Sep 28 by robith |
Yes I do, I was purely the point around ad cost I was disputing.
Sky get 70% of ITV's broadcast revenue with only 45% of the available potential audiences. But you said that they can't charge what ITV charge, when they in fact charge much more! I'll stop being pedantic now |
Yep fair enough on those points.
MY point (To saxbend) is the pretty obvious fact that Sky can't live on advertising revenue alone. | | | |
| Season Ticket Update on 18:31 - Sep 28 with 1861 views | PinnerPaul |
| Season Ticket Update on 10:34 - Sep 28 by NW5Hoop |
On the wider point about financial losses, I've done a lot of reporting on how Covid has affected live music, and many of the ancillary effects there hold true about football, too.
It's not just clubs affected by loss of fans. Think about it in broader terms:
- tens of thousands of fans not travelling every Saturday means massive revenue falls for rail companies, coach companies, travel companies
- loss of revenue for nearby pubs, cafes, newsagents and so on
- loss of revenue for food suppliers to grounds, and caterers who supply them
- loss of revenue for the company's that manufacture club shop tat
and so on and so on.
Think of it this way. Say 18,000 turn up to Loftus Road and the average spend on drinks, snacks, food, tat etc is £10 outside the ground. That's £180,000 lost to the local economy.
Say everyone travels to the ground by Tube, paying £2.40 each. That's £43,200 lost to TFL.
Say of those, 500 had travelled from further afield by train before getting on the tube. And say their average spend on tickets was £20. That's another £10,000 lost.
Thats's the way to think about it. So even the loss of one sellout at Loftus Road likely costs the economy somewhere around £300,000. |
Exactly and a fair chunk of that spend is VATable so the govt, us, lose out as well. | | | |
| Season Ticket Update on 13:15 - Oct 3 with 1590 views | PinnerPaul |
Try again!
Fair enough I think, despite my earlier misgivings think I'll pay.
Only option that isn't there - I don't think - is to keep ST and not pay for streams.
If we end up having to watch all online, I still get £270 off next season ST , so happy enough. | | | |
| Season Ticket Update on 13:17 - Oct 3 with 1570 views | QPR_John |
| Season Ticket Update on 13:15 - Oct 3 by PinnerPaul |
Try again!
Fair enough I think, despite my earlier misgivings think I'll pay.
Only option that isn't there - I don't think - is to keep ST and not pay for streams.
If we end up having to watch all online, I still get £270 off next season ST , so happy enough. |
"Only option that isn't there - I don't think - is to keep ST and not pay for streams. "
And that is the best option
[Post edited 3 Oct 2020 15:54]
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| Season Ticket Update on 14:04 - Oct 3 with 1448 views | Cliff |
| Season Ticket Update on 13:17 - Oct 3 by QPR_John |
"Only option that isn't there - I don't think - is to keep ST and not pay for streams. "
And that is the best option
[Post edited 3 Oct 2020 15:54]
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I agree, I'd like to keep my ST in case they open up but I don't want to pay for the streams for a couple of reasons (apart from the obvious that they're dry lifeless affairs):
1. You have to commit to paying for ALL eligible matches (home and midweek away) even if you miss one or two, and an ST doesn't give any discount at all, so if you do miss even a single match an ST works out dearer.
2. There's more than 1 ST in my household, so we'll be effectively paying more than £10 per match.
3. I'm an over 60 ST in Silver so I'll have to pay £1.00 more to watch the last match anyway!
The worst thing in the new statement for me,those whose ST is less than £280 - their steams will stop early and they'll have to pay for any more past that point. This includes:
Adults in Blue and Bronze
Juniors everywhere except Platinum
U23's and over 60's in Blue, Bronze and Silver
and worst of all Disabled Ambulants in Blue, Bronze and Silver
Given all of that, for the three ST's I pay for, I'm out. |  | | |
| Season Ticket Update on 14:20 - Oct 3 with 1400 views | essextaxiboy |
Turning 60 means that I will pay only a fiver less on a stream than actually being there . Its a fair way around this mess though IMO |  | | |
| Season Ticket Update on 18:32 - Oct 3 with 1255 views | saxbend |
Bad news. The club has buried this in a sneaky announcement. They have decided to start deducting £10 per game from the money they are currently sitting on for your season ticket as a "charge" for the streams that were supposed to be compensation for what is effectively an interest free loan from you to the club. They will do this, whether you watch the streams or not, unless you contact the box office by this Friday 9th October, and request a full refund of your season ticket.
I shall be doing so in person and I'll insist the money is refunded immediately, and not over a process that takes more than 3 months like last season. |  | | |
| Season Ticket Update on 19:50 - Oct 3 with 1169 views | slmrstid |
| Season Ticket Update on 18:32 - Oct 3 by saxbend |
Bad news. The club has buried this in a sneaky announcement. They have decided to start deducting £10 per game from the money they are currently sitting on for your season ticket as a "charge" for the streams that were supposed to be compensation for what is effectively an interest free loan from you to the club. They will do this, whether you watch the streams or not, unless you contact the box office by this Friday 9th October, and request a full refund of your season ticket.
I shall be doing so in person and I'll insist the money is refunded immediately, and not over a process that takes more than 3 months like last season. |
I don't think thats a particularly fair comment, the change is because it was expected that from October you'd be able to get to games, perhaps even most of them given the number of season ticket holders was around, or just over, the restricted capacity of the ground.
Given it seems incredibly likely none of us are going to be able to attend now at all, do you expect those streams to be "free" still?
Everyone is different naturally, but I think to criticise the club for this is very harsh. |  | | |
| Season Ticket Update on 20:41 - Oct 3 with 1119 views | saxbend |
| Season Ticket Update on 19:50 - Oct 3 by slmrstid |
I don't think thats a particularly fair comment, the change is because it was expected that from October you'd be able to get to games, perhaps even most of them given the number of season ticket holders was around, or just over, the restricted capacity of the ground.
Given it seems incredibly likely none of us are going to be able to attend now at all, do you expect those streams to be "free" still?
Everyone is different naturally, but I think to criticise the club for this is very harsh. |
I don't expect the streams to be free. I expect them to be compensation for the perversion of season ticket fees into an unauthorised interest-free loan. I also expect better than an all or nothing choice and a deadline of less than a week to make it. | | | |
| Season Ticket Update on 21:09 - Oct 3 with 1090 views | QPR_John |
| Season Ticket Update on 20:41 - Oct 3 by saxbend |
I don't expect the streams to be free. I expect them to be compensation for the perversion of season ticket fees into an unauthorised interest-free loan. I also expect better than an all or nothing choice and a deadline of less than a week to make it. |
Exactly | | | |
| Season Ticket Update on 09:44 - Oct 4 with 977 views | PinnerPaul |
| Season Ticket Update on 18:32 - Oct 3 by saxbend |
Bad news. The club has buried this in a sneaky announcement. They have decided to start deducting £10 per game from the money they are currently sitting on for your season ticket as a "charge" for the streams that were supposed to be compensation for what is effectively an interest free loan from you to the club. They will do this, whether you watch the streams or not, unless you contact the box office by this Friday 9th October, and request a full refund of your season ticket.
I shall be doing so in person and I'll insist the money is refunded immediately, and not over a process that takes more than 3 months like last season. |
You had the option to have your money back before the season started! | | | |
| Season Ticket Update on 09:48 - Oct 4 with 964 views | PinnerPaul |
| Season Ticket Update on 20:41 - Oct 3 by saxbend |
I don't expect the streams to be free. I expect them to be compensation for the perversion of season ticket fees into an unauthorised interest-free loan. I also expect better than an all or nothing choice and a deadline of less than a week to make it. |
It isn't all or nothing - you can get your money back and pay for the streams at £10 a go - as many as you like and as I just said, you could have done that in August if you wanted to!
Interest free loan? You could call every season ticket paid up front in any season that and the club mitigate that by offering the DD option, as they are again here. | | | |
| Season Ticket Update on 10:02 - Oct 4 with 944 views | johnhoop |
| Season Ticket Update on 18:32 - Oct 3 by saxbend |
Bad news. The club has buried this in a sneaky announcement. They have decided to start deducting £10 per game from the money they are currently sitting on for your season ticket as a "charge" for the streams that were supposed to be compensation for what is effectively an interest free loan from you to the club. They will do this, whether you watch the streams or not, unless you contact the box office by this Friday 9th October, and request a full refund of your season ticket.
I shall be doing so in person and I'll insist the money is refunded immediately, and not over a process that takes more than 3 months like last season. |
“Interest free loan”. You do realize that interest rates are virtually at zero don’t you, so the club is likely to be making close to the square root of f-ck all for holding your money, rather than it being some great conspiracy to rip you off. | | | |
| Season Ticket Update on 11:28 - Oct 4 with 903 views | QPR_John |
I've look at the deal in some depth now and have I got this right. There are only 21 homes games left so I imagine the extra 7 are the away midweek games. I paid £279 for my ST for home games only. So if I watch all 28 games I will get a £279 refund effectively watching all games albeit on TV for free including the 7 away games which I did not pay for anyway. | | | |
| Season Ticket Update on 11:42 - Oct 4 with 883 views | GloryHunter |
| Season Ticket Update on 11:28 - Oct 4 by QPR_John |
I've look at the deal in some depth now and have I got this right. There are only 21 homes games left so I imagine the extra 7 are the away midweek games. I paid £279 for my ST for home games only. So if I watch all 28 games I will get a £279 refund effectively watching all games albeit on TV for free including the 7 away games which I did not pay for anyway. |
That was the original offer, but they've changed that now. You will now be charged £10 for each streamed game, so you won't get any refund at the end of the season.
https://www.qpr.co.uk/news/club-news/season-ticket-update-031020/ |  | | |
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