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Kane or Kakay 13:27 - Apr 19 with 35873 viewsQPR99

Not the biggest fan of Kane for obvious reasons, but looking at Kakay's recent games I wonder if he should be back starting.

Apparently Kakay lost the ball 'once every 2.5 touches and once every 4.5 minutes' against Boro. Completed only 57% of his 37 passes. I remember hearing Warbs say something before that this is how it works when building a team from younger players, that they do make mistakes but it gives experience and creates a better team. Which is so evident from Willock who i think has become one of our best players from his game time this season.

So... Kakay or Kane?
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Kane or Kakay on 18:54 - May 4 with 3243 viewsdaveB

Kane or Kakay on 18:33 - May 4 by BrianMcCarthy

Fair points, as ever, Dave.

I think I was the first to say he should be moved on if, IF, he is found guilty. I also said, though, that he is innocent until proven guilty regardless of what he's done in the past or who he has played for in the past.

I would have said that no matter which QPR player was charged.

You are right that we don't know what he was accused of saying but we know by the charge itself that it is racial in nature. I don't think that we could or should keep a player at the club if he is guilty of such an offence. Not for one day.

I hope for his sake and for the club's sake that he is innocent and found to be innocent.


I should say for clarity if it had come out that any player had done a John terry I don't think anyone would defend him regardless of popularity, what i more meant was as we don't know what has been said by Kane if it was a different player and we didn't know what was said I think the reaction would have been different.

If he's found guilty he deserves all he gets
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Kane or Kakay on 18:57 - May 4 with 3222 viewsE15Hoop

Kane or Kakay on 18:40 - May 4 by Northernr

Well I'd be absolutely stunned if the club didn't know about this, because the FA will have been gathering evidence and statements before making the charge, hence it's taken three months, so TBH it makes me a bit uncomfortable he's been on the bench at all in that period, and used a couple of times fleetingly.


I agree 100% with that, Clive, and I'm surprised that MW hasn't taken a firmer stand, especially since the cliche "we're short of bodies" argument doesn't stack up when our league status has been assured for weeks already.
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Kane or Kakay on 19:04 - May 4 with 3205 viewsCiderwithRsie

Kane or Kakay on 18:16 - May 4 by Northernr

Well this is going to be premature, because we should wait for the hearing, wait for the verdict, and then see. But as I'm one of the people who has said he should be sacked IF he has made a racial remark, and IF he's found guilty of it, I'd like to say that personally, for me, that's not the case. I'd be saying the same if it was Austin, Chair, Dieng. Whoever.

The problem with what Liverpool did with Suarez, Chelsea did with Terry, Leeds did with Cassila, is they sacrificed what was obviously the right, ethical thing to do in favour of bottom line economics and football results. If a crap, reserve team Chelsea player had been found by the FA to have said what Terry said, the punishment would have been far steeper, the club would have gone to town on them and made an example of them to show how wonderful and inclusive they are. See how Chelsea dealt with the fans who racially abused Raheem Sterling, as opposed to how they dealt with their own captain for abusing Anton Ferdinand. Because of who Terry was, they didn't sack him, fine him, sell him. In fact they went completely the other way nuts defending him, banners, sticking him on the front of the programme for the return fixture. Liverpool had Suarez t-shirts made. Leeds made Cassila their captain.

What you do when you do then is basically surrender your image, ethics and what you stand for. You can put all the Twitter posts out condemning racism you like, when push came to shove and it was your best player and most valuable asset, you went with the racist rather than against. I watched on Friday as Leeds, Liverpool, Chelsea all put up their "enough is enough" social media boycott posts - and replies, absolutely rightly, just filled up with people saying "errrrrrrr, is this you?" with pictures of Terry, Cassilla, Suarez t-shirts and so on. Once you make that choice, that's your choice, there's no going back.

QPR, for all the really obvious reasons around what the club purports to stand for, absolutely cannot do the same thing. If a player is found guilty of making a racial remark they must never play for the club again, regardless of who that player is, how good they are, how important they are. Simple as that. Otherwise all the work in the community, Grenfell, all the rest of it just becomes a hollow PR exercise, done to make the club look better, but when push cames to shove you stick with a racist because he's your best goalkeeper, or a sellable asset.

Like I say, all hypothetical and premature, let's wait and see, but I do refute the suggestion I'd be making excuses if it was Austin or somebody else. My reaction would be the same - clear your locker.

It doesn't surprise me there's something like this bubbling in the background. Kane's interview was stupid, but he's literally been bombed out of the team altogether, when he was playing reasonably well, and Kakay has not been doing too well prior to Saturday. So not surprised there's more to it. Also the club pointedly social mediaing Osman Kakay to death, lot of pointed post match remarks on Saturday about how happy everybody was for him, everybody in the stand, all the players bigging him up on socials. There's clearly been something more to all of it than a simple daft comment to R generation, and now I guess we know what that something is.

This post has been edited by an administrator


Excellent post.

IF the club ends up taking any action against Kane I would like them to let all the players know that the same action would be taken against any other player in the same circumstances.

I don't believe we have any bad apples in the squad, the only sour note all season has been the Kane/Kakay thing (which absolutely does not prove anything about this allegation) but it's important that "names" know they are held to the same standard of behaviour, and that younger or "lesser" players know they won't get thrown under the bus while others get away with it.

Still hoping this is a storm in a teacup, so far we know almost nothing.
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Kane or Kakay on 19:15 - May 4 with 3114 viewsBrianMcCarthy

Kane or Kakay on 18:54 - May 4 by daveB

I should say for clarity if it had come out that any player had done a John terry I don't think anyone would defend him regardless of popularity, what i more meant was as we don't know what has been said by Kane if it was a different player and we didn't know what was said I think the reaction would have been different.

If he's found guilty he deserves all he gets


I get your point completely.

"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
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Kane or Kakay on 19:20 - May 4 with 3083 viewsswitchingcode

Kane or Kakay on 19:04 - May 4 by CiderwithRsie

Excellent post.

IF the club ends up taking any action against Kane I would like them to let all the players know that the same action would be taken against any other player in the same circumstances.

I don't believe we have any bad apples in the squad, the only sour note all season has been the Kane/Kakay thing (which absolutely does not prove anything about this allegation) but it's important that "names" know they are held to the same standard of behaviour, and that younger or "lesser" players know they won't get thrown under the bus while others get away with it.

Still hoping this is a storm in a teacup, so far we know almost nothing.


Looking back at this reported incident on replay Canos was walking away from the edge of penalty area and turns his head in the direction of Kane the ball was over by the the touch line and play stops by the dugouts when Austin and Dalsgaard have a bit of a tussle the Ref stops the game and gives a free kick then Canos runs over to the Ref and after a few words the Ref talks to the 4 th official checks his watch and the game restarts with a free kick.
Would think there has to be a witness or they have picked it up on audio otherwise it would be the case of believing Canos and not Kane if he denies this.Can’t believe this has taken so long to be announced.
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Kane or Kakay on 19:34 - May 4 with 3040 viewsnix

Kane or Kakay on 18:57 - May 4 by E15Hoop

I agree 100% with that, Clive, and I'm surprised that MW hasn't taken a firmer stand, especially since the cliche "we're short of bodies" argument doesn't stack up when our league status has been assured for weeks already.


In fairness though, we've pretty much all said, IF he was found guilty, so MW is probably thinking along the same lines and allowing due process. There may be a clearer picture now he's been charged, and presumably they have seen at least some of the evidence.
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Kane or Kakay on 19:45 - May 4 with 2988 viewsE15Hoop

Kane or Kakay on 19:34 - May 4 by nix

In fairness though, we've pretty much all said, IF he was found guilty, so MW is probably thinking along the same lines and allowing due process. There may be a clearer picture now he's been charged, and presumably they have seen at least some of the evidence.


Fair point, Nix. I guess he has to balance objectivity with responsibility whilst also sending a message out to Kane about what the club's expectations of his future conduct are.

I do think that MW would be on solid ground to drop him entirely from the squad this weekend, though.
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Kane or Kakay on 20:10 - May 4 with 2896 viewsdavman

Kane or Kakay on 18:40 - May 4 by Northernr

Well I'd be absolutely stunned if the club didn't know about this, because the FA will have been gathering evidence and statements before making the charge, hence it's taken three months, so TBH it makes me a bit uncomfortable he's been on the bench at all in that period, and used a couple of times fleetingly.


PROOF is the hardest thing here.

Terry clearly said what he said - he admitted so much in court before explaining that he was only repeating what he though Anton said to him - a defence that baffled me then and baffled me still.

Be interesting to see what the witness statements say - was he overheard? If he was overheard by the match officials, you have got to question why he was not punished there and then. If it is something Canos has heard during the game, but was not overheard by the officials, then why wait 'til now to charge him?

All very mysterious and if it turns out to be an individual's word against another individual, I can't see how anyone could be charged, otherwise this is the easiest way to screw over opposition players in years to come.

Yes, I know he's been on the bench, but he has been bombed out since the RGeneration interview, or is that something to do with this?

Anyway, as the FA and EFL love us so much, watch the club take a punishment as well as the player...

Can we go out yet?
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Kane or Kakay on 20:18 - May 4 with 2861 viewsNorthernr

Kane or Kakay on 20:10 - May 4 by davman

PROOF is the hardest thing here.

Terry clearly said what he said - he admitted so much in court before explaining that he was only repeating what he though Anton said to him - a defence that baffled me then and baffled me still.

Be interesting to see what the witness statements say - was he overheard? If he was overheard by the match officials, you have got to question why he was not punished there and then. If it is something Canos has heard during the game, but was not overheard by the officials, then why wait 'til now to charge him?

All very mysterious and if it turns out to be an individual's word against another individual, I can't see how anyone could be charged, otherwise this is the easiest way to screw over opposition players in years to come.

Yes, I know he's been on the bench, but he has been bombed out since the RGeneration interview, or is that something to do with this?

Anyway, as the FA and EFL love us so much, watch the club take a punishment as well as the player...


As we also know from the Terry thing, the standard of proof in court and in an FA hearing is different. Terry got off in court, because it couldn't be proved beyond reasonable doubt that his bullsht defence was indeed bullsht. He was found guilty by the FA 'on the balance of probabilities' and given an enormous four game ban, the same as you get for two red cards in a season.

Coincidentally, incident identical to this in the Wigan v Hull FC super league game thursday night last week. Hull's andre sevellio asked for the game to be stopped after 16 minutes, spoke to the referee and named Tony Clubb and what he'd said. Referee took the report, put it on report (referees micd up in Super League). Evidence gathered over the weekend, hearing tonight, Clubb has been banned for 8 games, within six days of the incident.

Good, except Clubb's 8 games and £500 fine is the lowest possible for a Grade F charge, because they've taken into account team mates saying he's "alright" and "not really a racist" and gone with the "heat of the moment" stuff. It's amazing, after all these hearings, how many of these completely, absolutely, none racist athletes, suddenly end up saying racist things in the heat of the moment, despite absolutely not being a racist.
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Kane or Kakay on 20:21 - May 4 with 2833 viewsBrianMcCarthy

Kane or Kakay on 19:34 - May 4 by nix

In fairness though, we've pretty much all said, IF he was found guilty, so MW is probably thinking along the same lines and allowing due process. There may be a clearer picture now he's been charged, and presumably they have seen at least some of the evidence.


I think that's fair.

"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
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Kane or Kakay on 20:37 - May 4 with 2760 viewsgigiisourgod

Kane or Kakay on 17:05 - May 4 by gazza1

Around 60 mins of the game a foul was committed near the half way line, CA involved, and the two players shook hands. A few seconds later the ref goes to the 4th official looking at his watch and says something. He then runs off and restarts the game with a free kick to the Bees. That is it, nothing seen of Kane.

Interesting that it has taken so long to come to light but I wonder why the ref spoke with the 4th official looking at his watch.....around 60 minutes.


Busy day Gazza?
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Kane or Kakay on 21:12 - May 4 with 2641 viewsBAWHoops

Can only echo Clive's excellent points.
IF found guilty he needs to be sacked, and I'd feel the same way about Dickie, Dieng, Austin whoever.

Chelsea do so much wonderful work when it comes to anti semitism and have really led the way with it, but it's somewhat meaningless for the way they stood by Terry.

The football community is an odd one. Ryan Giggs was a welcome guest up and down the country despite shagging his brothers wife! Only now is he being cut adrift. A complete wrongun and I'm sure not the only one

http://blogandwhitehoops.wordpress.com/

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Kane or Kakay on 21:37 - May 4 with 2555 viewsWegerles_Stairs

Isn't Canos white though? So I assume it's an alleged comment on his nationality, rather than his race.
[Post edited 4 May 2021 21:37]
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Kane or Kakay on 22:14 - May 4 with 2461 viewsCiderwithRsie

Kane or Kakay on 21:37 - May 4 by Wegerles_Stairs

Isn't Canos white though? So I assume it's an alleged comment on his nationality, rather than his race.
[Post edited 4 May 2021 21:37]


According to wikipedia his family live in Liverpool so maybe he called him Scouse bastard.
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Kane or Kakay on 22:15 - May 4 with 2460 viewsdavman

Kane or Kakay on 21:37 - May 4 by Wegerles_Stairs

Isn't Canos white though? So I assume it's an alleged comment on his nationality, rather than his race.
[Post edited 4 May 2021 21:37]


Don't go there, it is a bit of a minefield.

racism

noun
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

One of the "protected characteristics" in British Law is the country of origin. So, the terms used frequently for natives of Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Italy, Spain, the USA, etc. are "discriminatory" and can be deemed racist.

I think...

Can we go out yet?
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Kane or Kakay on 22:19 - May 4 with 2442 viewsSimplyNico

Kane or Kakay on 22:15 - May 4 by davman

Don't go there, it is a bit of a minefield.

racism

noun
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

One of the "protected characteristics" in British Law is the country of origin. So, the terms used frequently for natives of Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Italy, Spain, the USA, etc. are "discriminatory" and can be deemed racist.

I think...


Equality Act 2010, s.9 (1)Race includes–
(a)colour;
(b)nationality;
(c)ethnic or national origins
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Kane or Kakay on 22:22 - May 4 with 2417 viewsdavman

Kane or Kakay on 22:19 - May 4 by SimplyNico

Equality Act 2010, s.9 (1)Race includes–
(a)colour;
(b)nationality;
(c)ethnic or national origins


That is what I was trying to say...

Less Words, more meaning, man!


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Kane or Kakay on 22:56 - May 4 with 2315 viewsdaveB

Kane or Kakay on 21:37 - May 4 by Wegerles_Stairs

Isn't Canos white though? So I assume it's an alleged comment on his nationality, rather than his race.
[Post edited 4 May 2021 21:37]


yes the charge does mentions nationality and or ethnicity so it a bit unclear what he has done
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Kane or Kakay on 23:19 - May 4 with 2256 viewskarl

Kane or Kakay on 22:56 - May 4 by daveB

yes the charge does mentions nationality and or ethnicity so it a bit unclear what he has done


Difficult area but there are horrible words that describe Latin people, definitely racism imo when they're used.

It doesn't look like this will end well if there's 3rd party evidence, without it I'm not sure how there's a case but you have to imagine the FA have serious grounds and the club have definitely been holding Kane back so have to fear the worst unfortunately
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Kane or Kakay on 23:22 - May 4 with 2230 viewsRussian__Bot

Kane or Kakay on 18:16 - May 4 by Northernr

Well this is going to be premature, because we should wait for the hearing, wait for the verdict, and then see. But as I'm one of the people who has said he should be sacked IF he has made a racial remark, and IF he's found guilty of it, I'd like to say that personally, for me, that's not the case. I'd be saying the same if it was Austin, Chair, Dieng. Whoever.

The problem with what Liverpool did with Suarez, Chelsea did with Terry, Leeds did with Cassila, is they sacrificed what was obviously the right, ethical thing to do in favour of bottom line economics and football results. If a crap, reserve team Chelsea player had been found by the FA to have said what Terry said, the punishment would have been far steeper, the club would have gone to town on them and made an example of them to show how wonderful and inclusive they are. See how Chelsea dealt with the fans who racially abused Raheem Sterling, as opposed to how they dealt with their own captain for abusing Anton Ferdinand. Because of who Terry was, they didn't sack him, fine him, sell him. In fact they went completely the other way nuts defending him, banners, sticking him on the front of the programme for the return fixture. Liverpool had Suarez t-shirts made. Leeds made Cassila their captain.

What you do when you do then is basically surrender your image, ethics and what you stand for. You can put all the Twitter posts out condemning racism you like, when push came to shove and it was your best player and most valuable asset, you went with the racist rather than against. I watched on Friday as Leeds, Liverpool, Chelsea all put up their "enough is enough" social media boycott posts - and replies, absolutely rightly, just filled up with people saying "errrrrrrr, is this you?" with pictures of Terry, Cassilla, Suarez t-shirts and so on. Once you make that choice, that's your choice, there's no going back.

QPR, for all the really obvious reasons around what the club purports to stand for, absolutely cannot do the same thing. If a player is found guilty of making a racial remark they must never play for the club again, regardless of who that player is, how good they are, how important they are. Simple as that. Otherwise all the work in the community, Grenfell, all the rest of it just becomes a hollow PR exercise, done to make the club look better, but when push cames to shove you stick with a racist because he's your best goalkeeper, or a sellable asset.

Like I say, all hypothetical and premature, let's wait and see, but I do refute the suggestion I'd be making excuses if it was Austin or somebody else. My reaction would be the same - clear your locker.

It doesn't surprise me there's something like this bubbling in the background. Kane's interview was stupid, but he's literally been bombed out of the team altogether, when he was playing reasonably well, and Kakay has not been doing too well prior to Saturday. So not surprised there's more to it. Also the club pointedly social mediaing Osman Kakay to death, lot of pointed post match remarks on Saturday about how happy everybody was for him, everybody in the stand, all the players bigging him up on socials. There's clearly been something more to all of it than a simple daft comment to R generation, and now I guess we know what that something is.

This post has been edited by an administrator


Think it's pretty disgraceful you talking about what we should do if he is guilty.

Why aren't you also then talking about what should happen if he is completely innocent. Shouldn't you also be listing off cases of false accusations etc

My point here is. You shouldn't be saying any of this. By talking about what to do if he is guilty. You are writing him off and implicitly condemning him already

But reactionary journalistic virtue signaling instincts are hard to shake off.

Comparing it to the Terry case is embarrassing. You've really let yourself down. There is no evidence here, as in that case , that was clear for all. We all literally saw what Terry said

Also there is a scale. Terry called anton Ferdinand a black cNT. There is no ambiguity there. Offensive in the extreme and he knows it. Only about one step up to go from there. White English man in that case abusing a mixed race English man.

The dynamic here is different. Caños is from Spain there isn't the same historical oppression of white men over Spanish men for the same weight to be carried. Reminds me of the Louis CK gag:



That isn't so much a comment on it being less serious but a consideration that you should have. In that, without knowing more info, like what was actually said. You shouldnt charge in making ridiculous comparisons and prescribing punishments for a currently innocent man.

You should consider that even if he is guilty is this case perhaps less clear cut then you presume. Is it in fact an education issue. Could Kane have said something he wasn't aware was so seroiusly offensive.

Is a rascist insult to an ethnically Spanish bloke. It's certainly not as clear cut as it is towards black or Asian people

Maybe he isn't maliciously racist. Maybe he is just uneducated. Or maybe he was misheard/ understood
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Kane or Kakay on 23:33 - May 4 with 2190 viewsBrianMcCarthy

Kane or Kakay on 22:19 - May 4 by SimplyNico

Equality Act 2010, s.9 (1)Race includes–
(a)colour;
(b)nationality;
(c)ethnic or national origins


Thanks for clearing that up, Nico.

"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
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Kane or Kakay on 01:28 - May 5 with 2068 viewsMiss_Terraces

I'm not going to defend Kane for what he's said but I feel sky and the other media outlets are far more out of order by not stating it was against a white player. It's not fair on Kane or the black community or even any of us.
If we the people are serious about Black Lives Matters then we need to wrestle control from the lying racist murdoch empire and give it to the Black community to lead it

In the fight against racism, if you're on murdoch's side, you're on the wrong side and yet his blue flag scabs are leading the conversation. The murdoch empire is using racism to divide us. How much more powerful would this revolution be if it was lead by great footballers that were black and had earned our Respect by what they had done on the pitch

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Kane or Kakay on 07:44 - May 5 with 1876 viewsjoe90




[Post edited 5 May 2021 14:43]
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Kane or Kakay on 07:50 - May 5 with 1858 viewsgazza1

We need to see the 'full picture' before we start calling people names, etc.
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Kane or Kakay on 08:22 - May 5 with 1771 viewsCamberleyR

Kane or Kakay on 07:50 - May 5 by gazza1

We need to see the 'full picture' before we start calling people names, etc.


Who's calling anyone names? I haven't seen it, just the usual rational LFW debate.

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